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CarlosSi
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Skipping the regionals?

Sun Nov 27, 2022 4:22 am

Supposedly it seems like only pilots who have flown enough years at the regionals are going to the majors.

How exactly do they elect to hire from the regionals and do they pick and choose or do pilots at the regionals know they're at the top and "hope" they'll happen to get hired as they are hiring (which they sort of always are)?

Is it possible to go straight from some other operator like part 135 or even private to the majors? Would having tons of captain time (i.e., say 5000 hours) in a 737 or a320 be adequate enough for them? Would it be even better than a guy having 5 or 6000 hours captain CRJ? These are just arbitrary numbers since I don't know what an exit regional captain looks like experience-wise.



I suppose I have a remote possibility in flying a320s in a foreign country (Mexico) where there is no 1500 hour rule.... but I'd have to pay for my type rating. Having been paying mostly out of pocket and training over 5 years from nothing to /hopefully-maybe-almost/ CFI (which has been taking close to 2 out of those 5 years...), I just wonder if I could make up for what feels like lost time so I could get my "number" sooner instead of having to start at the .. starting line later than I've wanted to. It is what it is but I've learned not to leave any stones unturned.

Also don't if where that time is earned would factor in somehow (I know it can be logged per 61.51(j) but don't know how that's "perceived").
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Skipping the regionals?

Sun Nov 27, 2022 12:49 pm

Instead of a regional airline you could consider working for an ULCC. They don't have regional airlines and hire young inexperienced pilots straight from flight school without experience.

In the US this would mean Spirit, Frontier or Allegiant, but there are more options. You already mentioned Mexico, you could look at Europe as well. Ryanair, EasyJet and Wizzair are all hiring. Granted, it doesn't pay much but at least you build up experience. And once you got that experience there might be possibilities to move on to a better airline. Just keep your eyes and ears open.

Having to pay for your type rating can't be avoided, the times when airlines would pay for that are over.

The labor market for pilots is a global market, there's a good chance that you'll end up working outside the USA. That doesn't have to be a bad thing, see it as an adventure. Like I said, there are chances in Europe. Asia is in need of pilots as well. If you restrict yourself to America only you're doing yourself short.
 
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CarlosSi
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Re: Skipping the regionals?

Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:31 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Instead of a regional airline you could consider working for an ULCC. They don't have regional airlines and hire young inexperienced pilots straight from flight school without experience.

In the US this would mean Spirit, Frontier or Allegiant, but there are more options. You already mentioned Mexico, you could look at Europe as well. Ryanair, EasyJet and Wizzair are all hiring. Granted, it doesn't pay much but at least you build up experience. And once you got that experience there might be possibilities to move on to a better airline. Just keep your eyes and ears open.

Having to pay for your type rating can't be avoided, the times when airlines would pay for that are over.

The labor market for pilots is a global market, there's a good chance that you'll end up working outside the USA. That doesn't have to be a bad thing, see it as an adventure. Like I said, there are chances in Europe. Asia is in need of pilots as well. If you restrict yourself to America only you're doing yourself short.


That’s totally a consideration. Pretty much any airline flying in the US closed off to me for obvious reasons though.

Really just wanting to get out of this loop of paying to fly. Im working on the CFI but that’s felt like an eternal cost rather than an investment as of lately.

What kind of requirements would flying in Europe or Asia have, both training and visa-wise?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Skipping the regionals?

Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:33 pm

Call it the ATP rule, a more accurate reflection of the Part 61 implementation of Congressional law.

Yes, US carriers are hiring plenty from corporate/private, ULCC, and regionals. It doesn’t have to be regionals, though. I know five who left corporate and go to FDX—one Challenger to B777.
 
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CarlosSi
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Re: Skipping the regionals?

Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:41 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Call it the ATP rule, a more accurate reflection of the Part 61 implementation of Congressional law.

Yes, US carriers are hiring plenty from corporate/private, ULCC, and regionals. It doesn’t have to be regionals, though. I know five who left corporate and go to FDX—one Challenger to B777.


Heh, funny you say that. I acknowledge nothing was directly raised to 1500 and it wasn’t a number pulled out of nowhere, if not just requiring the ATP for FOs.
 
johns624
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Re: Skipping the regionals?

Sun Nov 27, 2022 4:11 pm

I'd worry more about why you're seeming to have a problem getting your CFI.
 
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CarlosSi
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Re: Skipping the regionals?

Sun Nov 27, 2022 7:11 pm

johns624 wrote:
I'd worry more about why you're seeming to have a problem getting your CFI.


There’s 30 different ways I can respond.

Financial, and I’m no English teacher. Like I said, it’s all mostly been out of pocket and I’m working a blue collar job.

I’m not worried. I hold myself to high standards as does my instructor.

Perhaps too high…
 
bluecrew
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Re: Skipping the regionals?

Sun Nov 27, 2022 9:34 pm

CarlosSi wrote:
johns624 wrote:
I'd worry more about why you're seeming to have a problem getting your CFI.


There’s 30 different ways I can respond.

Financial, and I’m no English teacher. Like I said, it’s all mostly been out of pocket and I’m working a blue collar job.

I’m not worried. I hold myself to high standards as does my instructor.

Perhaps too high…

On the other hand, the regionals give you valuable on-line airline experience, which people who come from non-traditional recruitment profiles don't have. It doesn't hurt that the regionals are paying better than mainline first year pay right now.

It's taken two years to get the CFI rating? Any failed checkrides? Understandable if it's a pure financial thing.

I did some 135 work and then went abroad and flew for a few years. I can't say I'd recommend it anymore. At the time I dodged the $18/hr regional flying, before the regionals started paying like drug dealers. It was a cool experience, but it was like flying on a different planet.

A lot of the folks that go charter -> airline, freight -> airline, military -> airline, struggle with the work/life balance sometimes and can feel like they're working in a foreign environment. If your primary career goal is flying airliners, I'd give the regionals some due consideration.
 
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CarlosSi
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Re: Skipping the regionals?

Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:59 pm

bluecrew wrote:
CarlosSi wrote:
johns624 wrote:
I'd worry more about why you're seeming to have a problem getting your CFI.


There’s 30 different ways I can respond.

Financial, and I’m no English teacher. Like I said, it’s all mostly been out of pocket and I’m working a blue collar job.

I’m not worried. I hold myself to high standards as does my instructor.

Perhaps too high…

On the other hand, the regionals give you valuable on-line airline experience, which people who come from non-traditional recruitment profiles don't have. It doesn't hurt that the regionals are paying better than mainline first year pay right now.

It's taken two years to get the CFI rating? Any failed checkrides? Understandable if it's a pure financial thing.

I did some 135 work and then went abroad and flew for a few years. I can't say I'd recommend it anymore. At the time I dodged the $18/hr regional flying, before the regionals started paying like drug dealers. It was a cool experience, but it was like flying on a different planet.

A lot of the folks that go charter -> airline, freight -> airline, military -> airline, struggle with the work/life balance sometimes and can feel like they're working in a foreign environment. If your primary career goal is flying airliners, I'd give the regionals some due consideration.


Yeah I just have to get there ^^ . It’s why I mentioned working foreign where I could fly airlines. I could start sooner getting enough PIC turbine time (once upgraded) for a major rather than slowly build up to 1500 and then start. Can’t get that experience at 350 hours here unless I’m lucky.

No failed checkrides. My fastest certificates were earned when I had plenty of income, slowest when I was “paying per lesson” (the private). I know my CFIs have only good to say about me including my current one. Sure any student could say that. No sloppy flying from me, though yes some maneuvers have rusted from when I did them last, and weather has been annoying, also working full time. It’s honestly hard to say exactly if it’s one thing slowing me down or if it’s just a lot of factors as I’ve mentioned. Personally I wish my training had been more structured rather than bouncing between ground and flying..
 
txjim
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Re: Skipping the regionals?

Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:48 am

bluecrew wrote:
I can't say I'd recommend it anymore. At the time I dodged the $18/hr regional flying, before the regionals started paying like drug dealers. It was a cool experience, but it was like flying on a different planet.

From Freakonomics - The hidden side of everything
WHY DO DRUG DEALERS STILL LIVE WITH THEIR MOMS?
In this chapter of the novel, the authors explore why many drug dealers still live with their parents despite their dangerous occupations and the risks involved. The answer is simple, because drug dealing isn't a job that has a lot of monetary and personal benefits.


Kind of like regionals not too long ago,,,,
 
bluecrew
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Re: Skipping the regionals?

Mon Nov 28, 2022 2:10 am

txjim wrote:
bluecrew wrote:
I can't say I'd recommend it anymore. At the time I dodged the $18/hr regional flying, before the regionals started paying like drug dealers. It was a cool experience, but it was like flying on a different planet.

From Freakonomics - The hidden side of everything
WHY DO DRUG DEALERS STILL LIVE WITH THEIR MOMS?
In this chapter of the novel, the authors explore why many drug dealers still live with their parents despite their dangerous occupations and the risks involved. The answer is simple, because drug dealing isn't a job that has a lot of monetary and personal benefits.


Kind of like regionals not too long ago,,,,

Don't get me wrong, regional game still seems like it sucks big time, but when they're willing to pay a new FO $100k straight into your bank account the day before training... it's not recognizable from what it was before. You can get paid very well, better pipeline to majors in the US (don't count on flow, play all the companies against each other. The people that have been banking on flow have largely gotten screwed).

International just throws up a whole lot of risks. The rules aren't the same over there (wherever over there you go to, SE Asia, China, Middle East), and I don't think the market is quite as lucrative for US pilots as it used to be. Your personal risk tolerance might be a little lower than mine, but there are plenty of outfits out there where I'd trust an FO with 250 hours on the airplane over the company's LCAs. Sketchy operations, poor maintenance, disregard of the rules, procedures, FCOM procedures. Very poor CRM, unprofessional management - the list goes on. Especially for a new, low-time pilot, I'd be really uncomfortable putting myself in that kind of situation, so I'd really recommend a lot of caution there.

This isn't to say there aren't a lot of great jobs out there for expats, but I'm not sure what you'd get with 350 TT.

Inevitably someone is going to contribute and say everything about expat flying I say is wrong, so I'm going to pre-emptively disclaimer this - we all know the type of outfits I'm describing, where the brain drain is so severe or training so poor that you genuinely wonder why they don't crash more airplanes. There's a reason they hire expats.
 
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CarlosSi
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Re: Skipping the regionals?

Mon Nov 28, 2022 3:06 am

bluecrew wrote:
International just throws up a whole lot of risks. The rules aren't the same over there (wherever over there you go to, SE Asia, China, Middle East), and I don't think the market is quite as lucrative for US pilots as it used to be. Your personal risk tolerance might be a little lower than mine, but there are plenty of outfits out there where I'd trust an FO with 250 hours on the airplane over the company's LCAs. Sketchy operations, poor maintenance, disregard of the rules, procedures, FCOM procedures. Very poor CRM, unprofessional management - the list goes on. Especially for a new, low-time pilot, I'd be really uncomfortable putting myself in that kind of situation, so I'd really recommend a lot of caution there.

This isn't to say there aren't a lot of great jobs out there for expats, but I'm not sure what you'd get with 350 TT.

Inevitably someone is going to contribute and say everything about expat flying I say is wrong, so I'm going to pre-emptively disclaimer this - we all know the type of outfits I'm describing, where the brain drain is so severe or training so poor that you genuinely wonder why they don't crash more airplanes. There's a reason they hire expats.


Similar thoughts. It's super structured here and every little thing is scrutinized so the idea of something going wrong isn't even thought of. Even at my flight school I've got some grievances.

Didn't really want this thread to be a seeking advice thread but it's relevant. I've played too nice, too reserved, and too conservative. I'll realize exactly where I stand the more I keep flying in the near future. I'll take what I can get. Eventually I may have to cut more than just the CFI certificate else stay in this endless cycle of going nowhere whereas my money begs to differ. It's a shame. I'll see. I appreciate your input.

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