Hi,

today I found an interesting video on Youtube published by the channel „Coby Explanes“ (around 200.000 subscribers) that foreshadowed a great future for the A330neo, which currently underperforms in terms of sales compared to every other Airbus-plane.
I think it would be great, if the A330neo gets more popular among the airlines, but now I‘m very interested in your opions about the forcast made.

The A330NEO needs to earn it's place. There definitely is a future for it, only airlines got to get into a position to see it.

There are still plenty of 767s, 787s and A330CEOs around that will eventually need to be replaced. Maybe not yet, but once they're up for replacement Airbus can offer the perfect replacement aircraft.

They can also try selling it to the ULCCs. There are plenty of trunk routes where an A321 is too small and they'd like to put something bigger on it. In this case they don't need the range, they just need a high capacity aircraft. The fact that the A330 can be fitted with a high density 3-3-3 layout makes it perfect for ULCCs. The A350 would be too big for them but the A330 isn't.

For some reason those larger engines look outstanding on the A330 NEO, really sets it off, an amazingly capable aircraft although I do wonder why an airline would choose it over the even more efficient, greater performing A350 versions that basically cover the same seat capacities


I just watched a Sam Chui video where he travelled on a Philippines A330-NEO, he had a seat in first class which was very nice but he tried out a seat in the 3-3-3 cabin, it looked incredibly tight and uncomfortable, I’ve never seen such a cramped arrangement, it would be perfect for small children only !

Cebu is the main operator of the A330NEO into my home port, with Air Calin number two. But there are dozens of operators of A330CEO where 9 or so hours is the max stage length theyll ever do, and where a replacement of old RB211 powered CEOs with NEOs makes sense.

Max Q wrote:

I do wonder why an airline would choose it over the even more efficient, greater performing A350 versions that basically cover the same seat capacities

No, that's not true. The A350 is not more efficient than the A330NEO.

It is per seat indeed, but when counting the total aircraft performance the A330NEO is more efficient. That makes the A330NEO suitable for routes where an A350 is too big. They also don't cover basically the same seating capacities, the A350 seats significantly more. That's because the A350 is wider, it has a 3-4-3 layout. The A330 has a 2-4-2 layout but can be fitted with a 3-3-3 layout as well. The A350 is also a bit longer than the A330. Because of it's larger size, the A350 is also heavier than the A330NEO and needs to compensate for that with more powerful (and thus more fuel consuming) engines.

The A350 makes sense if every seat is occupied. If not, an A330NEO might be the better choice. They got all the benefits of the A350 but on a smaller scale.

The highest density A350 which I could find is the FrenchBee A350-900 which seats 411, but part of that is premium class. Also, their economy class has a 32" seat pitch. If you'd replace the premium class with regular economy and reduce the seat pitch to 30" I come to a seating capacity of 486. In the meanwhile Cebu Pacific has a seating capacity of 436 in their A330s in an all-economy layout with 30" seat pitch. But those A330s have a lower overall fuel burn than A350s so it makes sense.

The A350 uses the benefits of scale to achieve efficiency, but when you don't have scale, you got to look for a smaller alternative which is the A330NEO.

Kent350787 wrote:

Cebu is the main operator of the A330NEO into my home port, with Air Calin number two. But there are dozens of operators of A330CEO where 9 or so hours is the max stage length theyll ever do, and where a replacement of old RB211 powered CEOs with NEOs makes sense.

I guess you meant Trent 700?

Best engine for the Airbus A330

It will never have the sales figures of the 787 and even the a350 but over time they will gradually improve. Problem is a lot of ceos are still quite young, ironically some even younger than the neos.

Airbus will need to win over 767 and older a330 customers and in my opinion the only substantial large order the neo may ever have will be from Delta. Unless they decide to go with the 787 (which I doubt) the only viable option to replace their aging 767s and older a330s will be the neo.

However if Boeing does bring out it's NMA/797 as a twin isle jet akin to the 767-200 Airbus will have something to worry about in my opinion in regards to both the a321xlr and a330.

Beyond that it will just see the odd few orders from the likes of Aer Lingus, Virgin Atlantic, some Asian carriers and low cost carriers.
All ME3 carriers seem content with the 787 now so you can probably discount them. Qantas might be the big surprise when they go to replace their current CEOs as they might want to keep their pilots on the same type rating plus the commonality with their incoming A35Xs. Who knows.....

SQ22 wrote:

Kent350787 wrote:

Cebu is the main operator of the A330NEO into my home port, with Air Calin number two. But there are dozens of operators of A330CEO where 9 or so hours is the max stage length theyll ever do, and where a replacement of old RB211 powered CEOs with NEOs makes sense.

I guess you meant Trent 700?

Best engine for the Airbus A330

True, but so similar to the RB211 that I forget.

The A330neo was developed by Airbus to rival the successful Boeing Dreamliner. However, it's important to recognize the market need for such an aircraft in the first place, as well as the development cost. The A330 jets have been rather successful, particularly in Asia for the 300s due to their unrivaled versatility and efficiency, covering routes from a short hop across the Taiwan Strait to an 11-hour intercontinental flight between Shenzhen and London.

The 200 model is also somewhat successful for intercontinental operations between secondary airports, but with the introduction of the 787s, the 200s aren't pioneering anymore. Hence, Airbus bought out an incremental upgrade for the A330 frames, the neos, which offer improved fuel efficiency, hence lowering operating costs. The new variant has already attracted some orders from A330ceo but not Dreamliner operators like Delta, Air Asia X, and Malaysian.

While it's true that the A330neo isn't selling as well as the 787, it's crucial to recognize the much lower development cost for this incremental solution as opposed to a new design from scratch. Furthermore, the A330neo exists more to offer a competing solution to airlines that have never operated Dreamliners. These airlines can buy into this incremental design to save on additional crew and new variant costs.

Additionally, plane sales are often not dependent on list prices but real prices. If Airbus can begin offering huge discounts for purchasing the neo frames like it has previously done, with many speculating that Airbus jets are sold at a loss with profits coming from maintenance, it could attract more sales.

FlyingMagnus wrote:

Hi,

today I found an interesting video on Youtube published by the channel "Coby Explanes" (around 200.000 subscribers) that foreshadowed a great future for the A330neo

OP: There's a lot of great YouTube channels (MentourPilot, MentourNow are outstanding), and "Coby Explanes" is a good one. Do keep in mind that the latter channel is more about hypotheticals and his personal predictions -- some of which are in intriguing, some are not (e.g. "Ignore the Haters. The Boom Overture WILL Be a Success")

In any case, this is a great discussion about the 330NEO and you will not find a better resource that these airliners.net forums on OP's topic.

rjsampson wrote:

FlyingMagnus wrote:

Hi,

today I found an interesting video on Youtube published by the channel "Coby Explanes" (around 200.000 subscribers) that foreshadowed a great future for the A330neo

OP: There's a lot of great YouTube channels (MentourPilot, MentourNow are outstanding), and "Coby Explanes" is a good one. Do keep in mind that the latter channel is more about hypotheticals and his personal predictions -- some of which are in intriguing, some are not (e.g. "Ignore the Haters. The Boom Overture WILL Be a Success")

In any case, this is a great discussion about the 330NEO and you will not find a better resource that these airliners.net forums on OP's topic.

I of course know that these videos are always hypotheticals and personal predictions, but that is the reason, why I mentioned it here, because I was very interested in the point views of all the blog-members here to see, what they are thinking about this.

Max Q wrote:

I just watched a Sam Chui video where he travelled on a Philippines A330-NEO, he had a seat in first class which was very nice but he tried out a seat in the 3-3-3 cabin, it looked incredibly tight and uncomfortable, I’ve never seen such a cramped arrangement, it would be perfect for small children only !

That would be a Cebu Pacific A330-900, some 420 seats.

The size of the seat is perfect for the target demographic, average passenger would be around 5’4” and 110 lb.

SQ22 wrote:

Kent350787 wrote:

Cebu is the main operator of the A330NEO into my home port, with Air Calin number two. But there are dozens of operators of A330CEO where 9 or so hours is the max stage length theyll ever do, and where a replacement of old RB211 powered CEOs with NEOs makes sense.

I guess you meant Trent 700?

Best engine for the Airbus A330

The full type designation is RB211 Trent 700, most of the Trent engines are RB211 variants.

See EASA engine TCDS https://www.easa.europa.eu/en/downloads/7723/en

The Trent 900 on the A380 full type designation is RB211 Trent 900 https://www.easa.europa.eu/en/downloads/7779/en

I think EI might eventually order the type as they currently only fly A330 CEO's widebody and their route network TATL is relatively short distance. Most flights are between 2600-3200 nmi which is ideal for the A339. Typical routes for them would be DUB-BOS, DUB-JFK, or DUB-ORD.

EI's longest route is DUB-LAX which is 4500 nmi. Again, comfortably in the A339 range. EI does not need anywhere close to the payload range of the 787 or A359.


https://simpleflying.com/aer-lingus-17- ... er_popup=1

ElroyJetson wrote:

I think EI might eventually order the type as they currently only fly A330 CEO's widebody and their route network TATL is relatively short distance. Most flights are between 2600-3200 nmi which is ideal for the A339. Typical routes for them would be DUB-BOS, DUB-JFK, or DUB-ORD.

EI's longest route is DUB-LAX which is 4500 nmi. Again, comfortably in the A339 range. EI does not need anywhere close to the payload range of the 787 or A359.


https://simpleflying.com/aer-lingus-17- ... er_popup=1

If EI do decide to go with the A350 but not expand to longer distance routes it will only be for capacity reasons on the 3 routes you mentioned above. I think if Covid had not happened EI would of already be flying the 330neo or at the very least had an order in place.

Honestly, the A339 needs some more range. Even the A333 is a bit disappointing in that regard.
Notice that none of the ME3 ordered the NEO. Even European carriers may struggle to send it far east. If the -900 could fly from the gulf to the Americas, or Europe to far East Asia, maybe airlines would get some more because it would open the door to thinner routes.

acavpics wrote:

Honestly, the A339 needs some more range. Even the A333 is a bit disappointing in that regard.
Notice that none of the ME3 ordered the NEO. Even European carriers may struggle to send it far east. If the -900 could fly from the gulf to the Americas, or Europe to far East Asia, maybe airlines would get some more because it would open the door to thinner routes.

That's what the A350 is for. If they made the 330 longer range, they'd just be cannibalizing 350 sales.

acavpics wrote:

Honestly, the A339 needs some more range. Even the A333 is a bit disappointing in that regard.
Notice that none of the ME3 ordered the NEO. Even European carriers may struggle to send it far east. If the -900 could fly from the gulf to the Americas, or Europe to far East Asia, maybe airlines would get some more because it would open the door to thinner routes.

The A339 has similar range to the 744, Airbus have the A350 for long haul flying which the A339 overlaps with, for larger airlines like DL it makes sense to have both, smaller ones would more likely go with 1 or the other. It’s a good plane but imo sits too close to the A359. The A338 has more range but it isn’t selling, yes it’s smaller than the A339 but it’s operating costs are also quite a bit higher for little to no gain other than range which airlines don’t need.

Yeah, overall the A330neo really exists for Airbus to offer a reasonable 787 alternative. It will never be a huge hit, and that’s completely okay. Given the development costs, the current orderbook is probably enough to break even. The A330neo is not a clean-sheet next-gen aircraft like the 787 or A350. It is not as efficient or comfortable.

But it definitely has it’s niche. For carriers looking for small orders, cheap planes, or quick deliveries, it’s a legitimate option. With 277 orders already, the A330-900 has already outsold planes like the A380-800(251), A340-300(218), and the 747-8(155), for a fraction of the development costs. I envision the A330neo gradually picking up an additional 100-200 orders over the next decade, which should make Airbus a nice profit.

The -800 is a victim to the -900 in a way. It doesn't serve the same purpose as the -200 in today's world. And even at that the -200 lost some of its uniqueness when the 242t -300 went on sale.

I personally believe the -800 will see more sales but not a huge amount. Hard to guess who else would opt for it though. I can't see Delta going near it if this rumored big Airbus order become reality. Qantas maybe ? Their -200s are serious workhorses domestically and long haul. On the LAX to BNE flight they clock in at over 14.5 hours. Something I'm not sure the -900 could even do ? Or is it likely they'll put the 787s on A330 routes when the A35X arrives ?

If QF was offered the -800 for bargain price they might take it. Likewise with EI, they'd having to be getting it for a steal essentially. Then again it's not like Airbus have a load sitting up waiting to be sold so there may never be that opportunity to sell them at cost price or less.

Will it be as rare as the 767-400 though I wonder ?

EIDWDUB wrote:

The -800 is a victim to the -900 in a way. It doesn't serve the same purpose as the -200 in today's world. And even at that the -200 lost some of its uniqueness when the 242t -300 went on sale.

I personally believe the -800 will see more sales but not a huge amount. Hard to guess who else would opt for it though. I can't see Delta going near it if this rumored big Airbus order become reality. Qantas maybe ? Their -200s are serious workhorses domestically and long haul. On the LAX to BNE flight they clock in at over 14.5 hours. Something I'm not sure the -900 could even do ? Or is it likely they'll put the 787s on A330 routes when the A35X arrives ?

If QF was offered the -800 for bargain price they might take it. Likewise with EI, they'd having to be getting it for a steal essentially. Then again it's not like Airbus have a load sitting up waiting to be sold so there may never be that opportunity to sell them at cost price or less.

Will it be as rare as the 767-400 though I wonder ?

QF won’t take the A330NEO, not the A339 and definitely not the A338 when they have 789s and A351s coming.

ZK-NBT wrote:

EIDWDUB wrote:

The -800 is a victim to the -900 in a way. It doesn't serve the same purpose as the -200 in today's world. And even at that the -200 lost some of its uniqueness when the 242t -300 went on sale.

I personally believe the -800 will see more sales but not a huge amount. Hard to guess who else would opt for it though. I can't see Delta going near it if this rumored big Airbus order become reality. Qantas maybe ? Their -200s are serious workhorses domestically and long haul. On the LAX to BNE flight they clock in at over 14.5 hours. Something I'm not sure the -900 could even do ? Or is it likely they'll put the 787s on A330 routes when the A35X arrives ?

If QF was offered the -800 for bargain price they might take it. Likewise with EI, they'd having to be getting it for a steal essentially. Then again it's not like Airbus have a load sitting up waiting to be sold so there may never be that opportunity to sell them at cost price or less.

Will it be as rare as the 767-400 though I wonder ?

QF won’t take the A330NEO, not the A339 and definitely not the A338 when they have 789s and A351s coming.

I wouldnt discount the A339. QF may want to keep their pilots on the same type rating as well at the A350 having the same type rating too.

EIDWDUB wrote:

ZK-NBT wrote:

EIDWDUB wrote:

The -800 is a victim to the -900 in a way. It doesn't serve the same purpose as the -200 in today's world. And even at that the -200 lost some of its uniqueness when the 242t -300 went on sale.

I personally believe the -800 will see more sales but not a huge amount. Hard to guess who else would opt for it though. I can't see Delta going near it if this rumored big Airbus order become reality. Qantas maybe ? Their -200s are serious workhorses domestically and long haul. On the LAX to BNE flight they clock in at over 14.5 hours. Something I'm not sure the -900 could even do ? Or is it likely they'll put the 787s on A330 routes when the A35X arrives ?

If QF was offered the -800 for bargain price they might take it. Likewise with EI, they'd having to be getting it for a steal essentially. Then again it's not like Airbus have a load sitting up waiting to be sold so there may never be that opportunity to sell them at cost price or less.

Will it be as rare as the 767-400 though I wonder ?

QF won’t take the A330NEO, not the A339 and definitely not the A338 when they have 789s and A351s coming.

I wouldnt discount the A339. QF may want to keep their pilots on the same type rating as well at the A350 having the same type rating too.

QF have said numourous times they want flexibility, having A351/789 that can move around. They may get the A359/781 though the 781 lacks the range. Not sure on the type rating, not all countries will allow a pilot to fly 777/787 simultaneously, not sure on the A330/A350 however I really can’t imagine QF buying the A339 for that reason.

I think the A330NEO will have its place, it won't sell or be a success like 787.

There are a lot of companies who needed to renew its A330 or 767 fleet: Aerolíneas Argentinas, Malaysia, Finnair, Turkish...

airportgeek wrote:

Yeah, overall the A330neo really exists for Airbus to offer a reasonable 787 alternative. It will never be a huge hit, and that’s completely okay. Given the development costs, the current orderbook is probably enough to break even. The A330neo is not a clean-sheet next-gen aircraft like the 787 or A350. It is not as efficient or comfortable.

But it definitely has it’s niche. For carriers looking for small orders, cheap planes, or quick deliveries, it’s a legitimate option. With 277 orders already, the A330-900 has already outsold planes like the A380-800(251), A340-300(218), and the 747-8(155), for a fraction of the development costs. I envision the A330neo gradually picking up an additional 100-200 orders over the next decade, which should make Airbus a nice profit.

This is spot on. Airbus is in a global competition with Boeing across the whole of their relative portfolios. Most of those 277 orders for the 339 are a win in that competition because each of those represents a 787 NOT sold.