Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
BDL2DCA
Posts: 310
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:46 am

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:27 pm

The emotions in this thread are exactly why I think that the TSA should create an "airside pass" system. Plenty of people have some reason to get beyond the security perimeter, however there are inherent costs to people doing that.

There are two reasons why TSA does not like non-travelers going through screening. First, it adds costs which cannot be recouped. Additional screeners required to screen the additional non-travelers who are not paying the TSA security fee. Second, those people are "unknowns," meaning nobody has any information on them. By paying with a credit card, you essentially are giving the airline enough information to compare your name to a terrorism watch-list and to verify that you "exist" so to speak. That is why paying with cash will get you SSSS every time.

Now, if the TSA created an airside pass program, whereby you paid $15 to get through security, we could mitigate both of those problems. I think $15 would be a high enough price to discourage large groups of people from using it, except in "special" cases like greeting troops returning from a warzone, greeting a championship NCAA basketball team, or any of the reasons outlined above.
146,319,320,321,332,333,343,346,359,722,732,733,734,735,73G,738,739,742,744,752,753,762,763,772,788,789,ARJ,BE1,CRJ,D9S,D10,DH8,ERJ,E70,E75,E90,F100,S80
 
User avatar
ClassicLover
Posts: 5162
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:27 pm

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:37 pm

Pfft... move to Australia. In the domestic terminals you can still go through security without a boarding pass if you want to. Since you've passed through security, there's no reason why you should not be allowed to go through to meet people or see people off.
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
okay
Posts: 642
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:11 pm

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:42 pm

Quoting Beefstew25 (Reply 13):

Why didn't you just request a press pass?
Concerning the topic, I would say the idea works in theory. But there are a few thing one might want to think before doing it. For example the airline I used to work for has a system/procedure that the agent follows when dealing with a passenger. It is a kind of procedure to screen the passenger. For example, the time/location of purchase of ticket is considered and evaluated according to the nationality of the pax, etc. If there seems to be an incoherency the pax is put on a screening list and will be "casually" interviewed by a supervisor to delete suspicion. For example in your case it could be the fact you don't have any luggage. I always asked a pax a few extra questions, all of course in small talk manner, why the pax is travelling without luggage, unless it was a clear situation of a business trip for example (person travelling somewhere just for the day to attend a meeting etc.)
If this was to happen to you, it would be, at least in my opinion quite emabarassing to say that you never had the intention to get on a flight and you are there just to do planespotting. And the airline might get the authorities involved in case they find out the true reason.
Just my thoughts =)
All the best if you decide to do it!
 
AJMIA
Posts: 434
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:29 pm

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:44 pm

Quoting BDL2DCA (Reply 50):
Now, if the TSA created an airside pass program, whereby you paid $15 to get through security, we could mitigate both of those problems. I think $15 would be a high enough price to discourage large groups of people from using it, except in "special" cases like greeting troops returning from a warzone, greeting a championship NCAA basketball team, or any of the reasons outlined above.

Good idea in theory. But...

1. Who would get the $15.00? The TSA for screening the passenger or the airlines for creating the gate pass for the passenger? In order to get the companions of unaccompanied minors, people with cognitive disabilities, etc thru security the airline has to issue the gate pass and check the name against the watch list.

2. How would the TSA determine "special cases"? They base their manning on flight schedules and booking levels. There would have to be someone in place to decide when a special case was under way in order to suspend the program. They may not realize something special is going on unless they are monitoring the local media.

3. The TSA would probably have to increase head count as would the airlines. It would be awful if security is swarmed and passengers miss their flight because people are trying to enter security to meet and greet or catch a glimpse of a celebrity. They check points are very often full to capacity as things are now.

AJMIA
Lady it's a jet... not a kite.
 
lincoln
Posts: 3133
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:22 pm

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:09 pm

Quoting AJMIA (Reply 53):
But...

I don't think it will ever happen (and if it does $15 is too low, IMHO, to discourage people from using it excessively) but two solutions would be to a) limit the number of passes issued on any given day (or any given time period) or b) have a separate "non-traveler" line -- maybe pull one person off of that line for every 5 travelers or something like that.

Also, since these people are not travelling don't allow any large items through (with the possible exception of credentialed media) -- just keys, cellphone, etc. That alone would reduce the impact that "visitors" would have on secuity.

At CLE the lines at the security checkpoints are usually very short (if there is a line to speak of), and all of the other airports I've been to recently are far from "full up" except during the peak rush times (where you could simply refuse to issue passes)

Lincoln
CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
 
unattendedbag
Posts: 2194
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 10:35 pm

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:26 pm

Quoting Cchan (Reply 48):
one need to think about if one has taken the last seat of a flight for the fun of it and someone out there is desperate to get to his/her very ill parent at the hospital.

Most flights are oversold anyway. In purchasing the ticket, you are saving a seat for someone who really needs it at the last minute. Once you cancel your reservation, you free up that seat.

Quoting BDL2DCA (Reply 50):
There are two reasons why TSA does not like non-travelers going through screening. First, it adds costs which cannot be recouped.

This entire thread is based on the principal that someone is purchasing the ticket to get through security. In purchasing the ticket, you are paying the nominal fee that goes to TSA for screening you. When you cancel the reservation, the airline eats the cost of screening you when they issue a full/partial refund.
Slower traffic, keep right
 
DiscoverCSG
Posts: 600
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:22 am

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:32 pm

Quoting Copter808 (Reply 25):
Remember, your INTENT was to fraudulantly bypass security, having no intent to ever board the aircraft

No, the intent was to go through security just like everybody else, by buying a ticket and then requesting the refund to which the buyer is entitled upon request. Unorthodox? Yes. Fraudulent? No. Illegal? No.

Quoting Cchan (Reply 48):
Isn't it that you are considered to have "used" the ticket once you have checked in?!

No. You are considered to have used the ticket once you have used the ticket - i.e. once you've boarded an airplane (and thus had the boarding pass scanned) with the intent to fly.
 
goaliemn
Posts: 320
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:46 pm

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:44 pm

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 45):
I would do it in Australia to buy duty-free then come back and sell the goods on the street thereby beating the GST.

Most places deliver duty free to the gate, and you only get it after scanning your boarding pass..
 
cgnnrw
Posts: 1073
Joined: Tue May 17, 2005 3:11 am

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:06 pm

Quoting Copter808 (Reply 25):
You don't think it might attract attention when you check in for the flight, then decide not to board it? Sure would raise a red flag in my book! I would darned well want to make sure that you did NOT check any bags and that you had NOT been on the aircraft at any point.

If I figured your little scheme out, we would be having a little heart-to-heart chat and YOU would no longer be in control of the situation.

Was there any Criminal laws broken? Quite likely there was. Remember, your INTENT was to fraudulantly bypass security, having no intent to ever board the aircraft. Remember, there are not only Federal laws you need to think about, but State and Local as well.

Now, could you get away with it? Probably yes. Just how lucky do you feel today?

My goodness take a chill pill! What type of attention would be needed to make you suspicious? Yes, carrying expensive and delicate camera equipment would surely draw my attention. Whoever heard of someone taking camera equipment with them on a trip??? Very suspicious indeed.....Since when is it required to check bags when flying? What authority do you pocess to have this little "heart to heart" chat?
A330 man.
 
skyharborshome
Posts: 363
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 11:19 am

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:14 pm

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Thread starter):
(not to mention it would almost be an automatic SSSS with no checked bags, booked late)

This would probably not even cause a SSSS. I have a lot of situations where I buy a last minute one-way ticket without bags and have only had extra screening once (that was when I canceled last minute and bought another). TSA has a hard enough time getting people through timely and completing a thorough screening; where you are going or if you are going is not going to be on their radar. I would say the only concern would be your demeanor. If you believe you are doing something wrong and act nervous when getting screened, they may decide to interview you and then may discover what you are doing. Even then, they cannot prove your intent was to not board that aircraft (unless you told the world on airliners.net or something).  Smile
Fly CHD!
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:54 pm

Aww hell, the world isn't going to come to an end just because someone wants to go look at some planes, I mean really. Longhorn, go buy yourself a fully refundable ticket to somewhere nearby and cheap, then enjoy the day. Far too many years ago than I'd like to admit, nothing could have made for a nicer Saturday than roaming the terminals at SFO, then spending some time out on the observation deck in the Central Terminal to take pics with my little Instamatic. Let the guy live a little. Life's too short to worry about what someone else might think of it.
International Homo of Mystery
 
deltabobo
Posts: 163
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2003 1:16 am

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:04 pm

Or you could do what i do.....GET A JOB with an airline and get a SIDA badge!!!!
Dispatchers...saving pilots from themselves and their egos since 1938!
 
lotsamiles
Posts: 254
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 1:22 am

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:17 pm

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 41):
Just curious, was it refundable, and if so, A) how did you go about doing that, and B) did any problems arise?

I just went for the cheapest one-way I could find and did not bother for the refund. It was an expense of the trip (I did fly LAX-MSP-LAX as well).

Regards,
Lotsamiles
 
ZOOM767
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 10:02 pm

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:18 pm

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Thread starter):
getting your boarding pass to get through security, then call and cancel the reservation once airside?

I don't see why it shouldn't work. Where I work (media) I remember a couple of cases when people were called back while waiting in the lounge when the story fell thru or changed at the last moment. I can't absolutely confirm that the refund was obtained, but we almost always buy refundable tickets for just this kind of situation.
 
Western727
Posts: 1912
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:23 pm

Quoting Sammyk (Reply 6):
Anyway, not sure why you'd want to do this at AUS. Not a whole lot of variety there.

Indeed. I live near MSP and am relocating to AUS this summer, and I know I will miss watching the daily NW 744 (NRT), the 333s (HNL, LGW and AMS) and the many 752s/753s. Longhornmaniac, while AUS isn't too bad, there are unfortuantely no pax widebodies to watch, and the frequencies are not nearly as good...  Sad

I therefore envision making weekend trips to IAH every now and then to be able to watch some "real" activity.  Smile

Anyway, I had been tempted to buy a fully refundable ticket somewhere to watch the last DC-10 arrival at MSP from HNL (NW98) last January, but chickened out at the last minute and instead watched the landing from the parking ramp. I regret that decision. I thank Longhornmaniac for starting this thread, because I now know that I can do this in the future.
Jack @ AUS
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20648
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:28 pm

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 10):

If you got money to blow... Good luck explaining this to the TSA and whatever cops that eventually nail you. Its hard enough to spot inside as it is let alone outside. This is all we need. People screwing with the system. Why cant you just wait til you have to fly to spot. Or hey, here is a novel idea: Spot ouside where its legal!

Just to summarize my views:
- It's not illegal. Unless perhaps there is a loitering ordnance in effect.
- The TSA really don't care whether you're getting on a plane or not. For example, they also screen all the people working at the airport. They care what you are carrying through in to the sterile area.
- How could the TSA and the cops "nail you"? All they see is a person with a boarding pass. And as pointed out above, they couldn't care less as long as you don't have liquids in more than 3 oz bottles etc...
- If someone wants to go an check out planes, that's ok by me. As long as they are consenting adults and don't disturb anyone, I think people should be able to do what they want. Just because other people think it's "stupid" or "a waste of money" should be none of their concern. I play a lot of World of Warcraft. A lot of people think that is "stupid" and "a waste of time". But I don't care what those people think. I enjoy it and that's all the justification I need.
- This does not jeopardize security in any way. If one is planning nefarious deeds, the trick is getting through security. This obstacle does not change whether one is planning to get on a plane or not.

Have a fun day at the airport!
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
prosa
Posts: 5389
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2001 3:24 am

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:30 am

Quoting Copter808 (Reply 25):
Was there any Criminal laws broken? Quite likely there was. Remember, your INTENT was to fraudulantly bypass security, having no intent to ever board the aircraft

There was no intent to bypass security. The original poster clearly acknowledged that he would go through security, and probably would get SSSS attention.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
seattleflyer
Posts: 128
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:17 am

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:43 am

I think the whole idea of doing this is quite reprehensible! Let me count the ways..

1. Lines are long and slow enough already - I sure hope I'm not the one at the airport worried about getting through security when you're in line ahead of me just, there just 'cuz you think it would be fun!

2. You hold the last ticket for a full flight and someone who really needs to fly can't or at the very least is on pins and needles until you call to cancel your seat.

3. It's an abuse of the airlines' policies created to make travel flexible for those who really need it.

4. TSA has enough to deal with for people that are actually going to fly - why should they have to spend time on some who just wants to take pictures, etc?

Shall I continue?

You can't come up with an argument for doing this that isn't self-centered and totally inconsiderate to everyone that could be or is inconvenienced by it. IT"S JUST RUDE! If you can't enjoy your hobby without messing with other people's lives, you NEED to get another hobby!

Such inconsideration just makes my blood boil!
 
flyinback
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:48 am

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:52 am

I'm not sure if this was brought up or not (and I'm not familiar enough with the 'refundable' tickets to know if this is how it works or not), but in order to get through security you would need your boarding pass. In order to get that, you would have to 'check in' (be it at the airport or at home). Wouldn't checking in ruin all hopes of obtaining a refund for your fare?
 
EWRCabincrew
Posts: 4323
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 2:37 am

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:20 am

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 30):
I respect your job (and if it's in commericial aviation, probably wish I had it), however some of us do enjoy planes, and want to be around them as much as possible, too.

You should get a job in the industry if it means that much or encompassed that much effort on your part. A lot are hiring.

This thread is spriraling fast. I predict an early demise.
You can't cure stupid
 
DiscoverCSG
Posts: 600
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:22 am

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:24 am

Quoting Flyinback (Reply 68):
Wouldn't checking in ruin all hopes of obtaining a refund for your fare?

Again, no. A boarding pass and a ticket are tow different things. Buying a ticket allows you to get a boarding pass but does not obligate you to fly. Getting a boarding pass allows you to get on a plane but does not obligate you to fly. But you have to actually get on the plane to use your ticket. It's entirely plausible that someone could obtain a boarding pass and then decide not to fly. In fact, it happens every day.
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:27 am

Quoting SeattleFlyer (Reply 67):
1. Lines are long and slow enough already - I sure hope I'm not the one at the airport worried about getting through security when you're in line ahead of me just, there just 'cuz you think it would be fun!

Someone without luggage is going to take barely any time ahead of you in line.

Quoting SeattleFlyer (Reply 67):
2. You hold the last ticket for a full flight and someone who really needs to fly can't or at the very least is on pins and needles until you call to cancel your seat.

So he picks a flight that is wide open.

Quoting SeattleFlyer (Reply 67):
3. It's an abuse of the airlines' policies created to make travel flexible for those who really need it.

Bah. Point out in any Contract of Carriage where it says if you buy an airline ticket you must use it.

Quoting SeattleFlyer (Reply 67):
4. TSA has enough to deal with for people that are actually going to fly - why should they have to spend time on some who just wants to take pictures, etc?

The same argument could be used for those who have to go through security simply to access an airside airline lounge, but people do it all the time without problems.

Quoting SeattleFlyer (Reply 67):
IT"S JUST RUDE! If you can't enjoy your hobby without messing with other people's lives, you NEED to get another hobby!

No it's not, and no he doesn't. Just because some people have hijacked planes, doesn't mean he can't enjoy airports. It's not like he's doing it every day, for heaven's sake.

Quoting Flyinback (Reply 68):
Wouldn't checking in ruin all hopes of obtaining a refund for your fare?

As long as he didn't board, he's okay.
International Homo of Mystery
 
beefstew25
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:40 am

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:37 am

Quoting OkAY (Reply 52):
Why didn't you just request a press pass?

In the time it took to wade through the bureaucracy, the ticket would be booked and we would be on our way. We would find out last minute about the flight arriving, so time was of the essence. Worked every time. TSA would even laugh, and ask, "Who famous is coming through today?"
MLB
 
airlineecon
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:22 am

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:49 am

I had a friend in college do this about 7 or 8 year ago on Continental. He was studying abroad in Europe and would buy fully refundable tickets back to the US. Show up at the airport in Europe on days when he knew the plane was oversold, volunteer to give up his seat and collect some sort of travel voucher and be booked on the next days flight. After he collected his voucher he would cancel and get a refund on his ticket. He'd do this a couple of times a week. He also had some tricks to accumulate hundreds of thousands of frequently flyer miles. He finally got caught by continental, and CNN or some news agency did a story about him.

Personally, I thought it was pretty lame what he did, he should have tried to enjoy the country he was studying abroad in, instead of scamming the airlines.
 
bond007
Posts: 4428
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:02 am

Quoting Cchan (Reply 48):
This is mere selfishness! It is such a waste of other people's time and effort to deal with selfish idiots like this. Grow up and be considerate to other people! Before one think about doing this, one need to think about if one has taken the last seat of a flight for the fun of it and someone out there is desperate to get to his/her very ill parent at the hospital. Airline service agents have better things to do than cancelling these type of tickets! How many people are inconveniced by this type of reckless behaviour?

Amazing that it takes 48 posts before anybody mentioned the fact that you are potentially taking a seat away from somebody else!

Quoting UnattendedBag (Reply 55):
Most flights are oversold anyway. In purchasing the ticket, you are saving a seat for someone who really needs it at the last minute. Once you cancel your reservation, you free up that seat.

LOL... now that IS a ridiculous comment!

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 71):
So he picks a flight that is wide open.

Right...sure he does  Yeah sure

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 71):
Bah. Point out in any Contract of Carriage where it says if you buy an airline ticket you must use it.

No, not use it, but purchase it with the intent of travelling. You are actually entering into a contract of CARRIAGE... which is an agreement for the purchase of airline transportation. You bet if the airline really wanted to refuse the refund, they'd have no problem legally whatsoever. Cancelling at the last minute because of a meeting schedule change, and cancelling just because you wanted you only wanted to get airside, are 2 very different things.

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
jetboy319
Posts: 231
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 2:41 pm

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:04 am

Quoting SeattleFlyer (Reply 67):
think the whole idea of doing this is quite reprehensible! Let me count the ways..

1. Lines are long and slow enough already - I sure hope I'm not the one at the airport worried about getting through security when you're in line ahead of me just, there just 'cuz you think it would be fun!

2. You hold the last ticket for a full flight and someone who really needs to fly can't or at the very least is on pins and needles until you call to cancel your seat.

3. It's an abuse of the airlines' policies created to make travel flexible for those who really need it.

4. TSA has enough to deal with for people that are actually going to fly - why should they have to spend time on some who just wants to take pictures, etc?

Shall I continue?

You can't come up with an argument for doing this that isn't self-centered and totally inconsiderate to everyone that could be or is inconvenienced by it. IT"S JUST RUDE! If you can't enjoy your hobby without messing with other people's lives, you NEED to get another hobby!

Such inconsideration just makes my blood boil!

Good Lord! Now I know why I see so many commercials on tv advertising medication for high blood pressure!
 
User avatar
KLM11
Posts: 204
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2003 2:32 pm

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:06 am

Quoting Sammyk (Reply 6):
To avoid the SSSS scrutiny couldn't you plan this out ahead of time?

I've booked many last-minute flights and have never been subject to SSSS screening. Whenever I fly O/W, its SSSS scrutiny every time!

How about buying a full fare int'l F ticket and using one of THOSE lounges for spotting!!! Big grin

--KLM11
BENAIRE - The Refined Airline
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:28 am

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 74):
You are actually entering into a contract of CARRIAGE... which is an agreement for the purchase of airline transportation. You bet if the airline really wanted to refuse the refund, they'd have no problem legally whatsoever.

Since this thread is going all over the place, let's point out that if you held a fully refundable airline ticket, and didn't make the flight, the airline is obligated to refund the ticket. Just cancel before the flight departs to allow someone else to use the seat. It's not like he's doing it every day.

What I don't understand from all the negative responses regarding needlessly taking up people's time is what if I was on a connection and wanted to leave the terminal to go have a smoke? I'd have to reclear security. I've done it many times and no one's ever had a problem. I've even done it a couple of times at the same airport on the same day. What if I wanted to have lunch at a restaurant or visit a shop that's behind security in a different terminal at an airport I'm passing through? Is it rude to take a place in line at security to go get a meal or shop? Nope. It would never even cross my mind.

What if I needed 1000 miles at the end of the year to make the next elite level? Should I not take an extra flight just for the miles because I'm needlessly taking up a seat someone else absolutely had to have, or because it clogged the security lines? Nope.

Quoting Jetboy319 (Reply 75):
Good Lord! Now I know why I see so many commercials on tv advertising medication for high blood pressure!

LOL!  checkmark   checkmark 
International Homo of Mystery
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20648
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:33 am

Quoting SeattleFlyer (Reply 67):

1. Lines are long and slow enough already - I sure hope I'm not the one at the airport worried about getting through security when you're in line ahead of me just, there just 'cuz you think it would be fun!

We're probably talking 1 person in 10000. Hardly a significant delay. In the random sampling of people ahead of me through security at various times, I'm pretty sure I could find a slower specimen than a plane spotter.

Quoting SeattleFlyer (Reply 67):

2. You hold the last ticket for a full flight and someone who really needs to fly can't or at the very least is on pins and needles until you call to cancel your seat.

Yawn. It's the market. There are plenty of frequent travelers who purchase multiple tickets and choose the airline that upgrades them, then return the rest of the tickets for a refund. Are they also inconsiderate? If I'm a billionaire and want to propose to a girl, I can book the whole restaurant. Is that inconsiderate to others who may want to dine or romantic to her? The market, which provides you with such great fares, has interesting side effects. C'est la vie.

Quoting SeattleFlyer (Reply 67):

3. It's an abuse of the airlines' policies created to make travel flexible for those who really need it.

Said person is not breaking any rules. He's simply using a loophole in the rules. If the airlines thought it was huge deal, they would close the loophole.

Quoting SeattleFlyer (Reply 67):

4. TSA has enough to deal with for people that are actually going to fly - why should they have to spend time on some who just wants to take pictures, etc?

Why not? TSAs job is to check people who go through security. Whether they get on a plane or not is irrelevant. And as I said above, the volumes we are talking about are like a drop in the bucket.

Quoting SeattleFlyer (Reply 67):
Such inconsideration just makes my blood boil!

That's hardly his fault. Said person is, at worst, being inconsiderate towards the airline, not towards individual passengers. Getting angry at things one cannot change is pretty counterproductive.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
bond007
Posts: 4428
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:14 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 77):
Since this thread is going all over the place, let's point out that if you held a fully refundable airline ticket, and didn't make the flight, the airline is obligated to refund the ticket.

I would disagree. When purchasing the ticket, you enter a legal contract for the sole intent of transportation between A and B. If your intent was NEVER to fly from A to B, then the Contract Of Carriage (which includes refund policies), in theory no longer applies.

Like I said, 'not making the flight', and never intending to fly, are two very different things.

Many airlines have a 'Fictitous booking' exclusion in the Contract of Carriage, and I don't see how this does not fall into this category.

Now, of course, being caught is extremely slim ... but let's not pretend it's morally or legally OK.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
Western727
Posts: 1912
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:42 am

Quoting KLM11 (Reply 76):
SSSS

Please forgive my ignorance, but while I understand from this post what "SSSS" means, what does the acronym stand for? Thanks in advance.
Jack @ AUS
 
Longhornmaniac
Topic Author
Posts: 3150
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:33 pm

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:43 am

Quoting Western727 (Reply 64):
Indeed. I live near MSP and am relocating to AUS this summer, and I know I will miss watching the daily NW 744 (NRT), the 333s (HNL, LGW and AMS) and the many 752s/753s. Longhornmaniac, while AUS isn't too bad, there are unfortuantely no pax widebodies to watch, and the frequencies are not nearly as good...

I therefore envision making weekend trips to IAH every now and then to be able to watch some "real" activity.

Oh come now, Austin is too good a city to waste time travelling to Houston, with or without the airport. The good news about our airport is you can actually breathe the air.  Wink But yes, I agree with you, those 744s and A330s at MSP will be sorely missed, however the constant flow of NW probably won't. Yes, it sucks that there aren't any pax widebodies (though I'm still holding out hope one day!). But seriously, I try to make it to Houston for an Astros game and some spotting at the Mariott. IAH has a great little spot under the glideslope for 27 that is great (and even better, a designated spotting area).

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 69):
You should get a job in the industry if it means that much or encompassed that much effort on your part. A lot are hiring.

This thread is spriraling fast. I predict an early demise.

I really want to. Problem is, I'm a senior in high school this year, and even though I don't think I'm going to go far away (30 miles or so from AUS), I'm not sure how much time I'm going to have, and how well airlines work around school (any help or knowledge is very welcome!) in terms of hours and such.

To others that have taken issue with this idea, let me say/clarify a few things:

1) This is not something that I have seriously considered. It would be fun to be able to watch planes from my favorite place, but I still haven't seriously considered it.

2) Even if I did, the last thing I would ever want to do is take a seat out from underneath someone else's butt. I would work it where, if done right, the seat would only be booked for an hour at most, and I would do my best to book as empty a flight as I can. I don't know if it's my age, or what (I am 18), but youth does not always equal ignorance/lack of awareness to others.

3) As others have said, I really don't think I would be "messing up other people's lives" by doing this. I wouldn't be doing it every day (maybe once or twice a YEAR), and I wouldn't be the one who's not ready when it comes to security, considering I'm more familiar with the workings of the airport than most.

Just my  twocents 

Cheers,
Cameron
Cheers,
Cameron
 
Longhornmaniac
Topic Author
Posts: 3150
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:33 pm

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:47 am

Quoting Western727 (Reply 80):
Please forgive my ignorance, but while I understand from this post what "SSSS" means, what does the acronym stand for? Thanks in advance.

According to wikipedia, it means, "Secondary Security Screening Selection/Selectee" I didn't know that either, strangely enough.

link

Cheers,
Cameron

Edited to add link

[Edited 2007-03-19 20:47:53]
Cheers,
Cameron
 
Western727
Posts: 1912
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:50 am

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 81):
the constant flow of NW probably won't.

 checkmark   Big grin

AsstChiefMark's signature says it perfectly...goes something like "red tail...red tail...red tail...damned MSP..."

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 81):
IAH has a great little spot under the glideslope for 27 that is great (and even better, a designated spotting area).

Thanks for the tip! I'll keep that in mind. Good luck finishing high school.
Jack @ AUS
 
Western727
Posts: 1912
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:52 am

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 82):
According to wikipedia

Hello, Jack...check Wikipedia next time... Smile Thanks again.
Jack @ AUS
 
coerj
Posts: 216
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:49 pm

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:08 am

Depending on what airport/ what airline/ what agent, you can just walk up to the ticketing desk, say that your old handicap grandmother is arriving on an incoming flight, and they may give you a gate pass. It has worked for me and seems much easier than buying a ticket and getting a refund.
 
Longhornmaniac
Topic Author
Posts: 3150
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:33 pm

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:10 am

Quoting Western727 (Reply 83):
Thanks for the tip! I'll keep that in mind. Good luck finishing high school.

Also, when I was there last (2 summers ago), there was a little construction area right underneath the glideslope for what is now 26L, perfect for watching the European heavies. They get split up, though. The BA 777 landed on 27, while the KLM 744 landed 26L. Both areas are off of Lee Rd. From the airport terminal, take the Will Clayton Pkwy toward the US59 exit. There will be a light for Lee Rd. going north (left from the airport), which will get you underneath 26L. Incidentally, if you take a right at that light, it will take you to a great little dead end right up against the fence, just down the runway from the 27 threshold. If you keep going on Will Clayton out from the terminals (toward 59), Lee Rd. actually follows Will Clayton for what I'd say is a quarter mile, then goes off to the right, which will get you to the spotting place underneath 27. Enjoy!

Here are some pictures (from before I actually learned to photograph  Wink):

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l244/Longhornmaniac8/IAHPicturesMovie012.jpg
The dead end at 27

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l244/Longhornmaniac8/IAHPicturesMovie043.jpg
Underneath the 26L glideslope

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l244/Longhornmaniac8/IAHPicturesMovie034.jpg
27 Glideslope

Quoting Western727 (Reply 84):
Hello, Jack...check Wikipedia next time... Thanks again.

Haha, it's a wonderful site, isn't it.  Wink  Smile

Cheers,
Cameron
Cheers,
Cameron
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20648
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:16 am

Quoting COERJ (Reply 85):
Depending on what airport/ what airline/ what agent, you can just walk up to the ticketing desk, say that your old handicap grandmother is arriving on an incoming flight, and they may give you a gate pass. It has worked for me and seems much easier than buying a ticket and getting a refund.

Well, yeah. But now you are lying to a person as opposed to just exploiting a loophole in the rules of a corporation. And that's a bridge you may not want to cross in case things turn sour later. Apart from the ethical issues, your provable method to gain access has now been to deceive. With the refund, you can say you were intending to fly, but changed your plans. They cannot prove this is not the case.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27552
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:20 am

Just anecdotal, but I routinely fly one-way paid F domestically (I fly the airline most convenient and sometimes that is one going down and another going back). Since it's paid F, I usually book 3-days out. Never been SSSS'd.
 
astral
Posts: 151
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:50 am

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:32 am

Sure, it can be done, and I have done it a few times before !!
Do note there are business people who may have to cancel a trip at the laast minute. I have clients that actually boarded an aircraft, and then deplaned and canceled his J class ticket, get fully refunded. My boss just three weeks ago done that with Cathay Pacific, checked-in, then change his mind and returned home !!!! Get his refund from his agency on his F class ticket, every penny of it. Business traveller buy J or F tickets just because they can change at the last minute (really last minute !!), and can get full refund. Part of the reality in our business world.
My only reason of getting airside was to take pictures, and this is why I have over 30,000 K64/K25 slides at home. You must choose an airport that has lots of traffic to make it worthwhile, like HKG, LHR, JFK, PEK etc., and has big windows to shoot through the glass. Best is to buy a full Y or better J class ticket, you can get a full refund easy. I don't do it any more, just because slides are being taken over by digital, further more Kodak don't make them any more. I don't travel as much as before, and YVR here is not 'busy' to worth the efforts. If you are in the USA or in Europe, buy a domestic Y ticket, and you will have much less SSSS worries then an international, which has more hussels to go through.
 
fbm3rd
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:20 am

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:55 am

What if someone did check bags when they did this? Would the airline take the bag off the flight?
 
exFATboy
Posts: 1887
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:15 am

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:04 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 79):
When purchasing the ticket, you enter a legal contract for the sole intent of transportation between A and B. If your intent was NEVER to fly from A to B, then the Contract Of Carriage (which includes refund policies), in theory no longer applies.

Hypothetically, you may have a point here. However, the burden of proof would be on the airline to PROVE that you never had any intent to fly. Unless the airline was willing to actually go through the process of suing him, putting him on the stand, and asking him under oath what his actual intentions were, that's pretty much impossible.

The only exception I can think of would be if he did it a lot, with multiple charges and refunds to a credit card. Then the airline could deny a refund and make their case to the credit card company - a much lower burden of proof than going to court - and have a good chance of sticking him with the expense.

As for the rest of the arguments, I don't see the big deal - one additional person to be screened doesn't put a major burden on the TSA, and as for the "what if you're taking a seat from someone who has a dying relative?" argument, that's why airlines overbook. They'd call for volunteers at the airport, he could walk up and have his ticket cancelled at that point, and all is well.

(Hypothetically, I guess it could come up if the only airline flying the route someone needed was JetBlue - the only US airline I'm aware of that doesn't overbook - but what are the odds of someone with such an emergency having JetBlue as their ONLY option between two cities? Pretty bloody unlikely. And anyone wanting to do this could simply avoid this moral conundrum by simply not using a B6 ticket.)
 
Longhornmaniac
Topic Author
Posts: 3150
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:33 pm

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:22 am

I was just wondering why this thread was moved from Civ Av to Polls and Preferences. Personally, I see nothing in this thread that would apply it to the Polls and Prefs, in particular over Civil Aviation.

Could any mods shed some light on it, while I timidly voice my objection?  Smile

Cheers,
Cameron
Cheers,
Cameron
 
unattendedbag
Posts: 2194
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 10:35 pm

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:40 pm

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 92):
I was just wondering why this thread was moved from Civ Av to Polls and Preferences.

I thought it had been deleted!

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 92):
Could any mods shed some light on it, while I timidly voice my objection?

Don't be a girl, voice your objection loud and proud!
Slower traffic, keep right
 
Longhornmaniac
Topic Author
Posts: 3150
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:33 pm

RE: Buying Fully Refundable Ticket To Get Airside?

Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:06 pm

Quoting UnattendedBag (Reply 93):
Don't be a girl, voice your objection loud and proud!

LOL!  rotfl 

I did, in site related!

Cheers,
Cameron
Cheers,
Cameron

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 85 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos