Arcrftlvr
Topic Author
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Least Safe US Domestic Airline

Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:29 pm

What US domestic airline has the worst safety record/most reported incidents?
 
MEA-707
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RE: Least Safe US Domestic Airline

Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:34 pm

They are all very good. The last major crash in the US was in 2001. (2 commuter/Regional Jet incidents since, knock on wood).
US Airways had a worrysome early 1990s with about 5 crashes but are fine since
American had slightly more crashes then the others (DC-10 ORD 1979, 757 in Colombia 1995, MD-80 in 1999 and A300 in NYC in 2001) all blamed on faulty cockpit and overhaul procedures, but counted against the size, still statistically very good.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
787EWR
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RE: Least Safe US Domestic Airline

Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:41 pm



Quoting MEA-707" class=quote target=_blank>MEA-707 (Reply 1):
They are all very good. The last major crash in the US was in 2001. (2 commuter/Regional Jet incidents since, knock on wood).
US Airways had a worrysome early 1990s with about 5 crashes but are fine since
American had slightly more crashes then the others (DC-10 ORD 1979, 757 in Colombia 1995, MD-80 in 1999 and A300 in NYC in 2001) all blamed on faulty cockpit and overhaul procedures, but counted against the size, still statistically very good.

I agree with MEA, if you consider how many flights we have in North America, the crash rate is incredibly low. Goes to show the professionalism of pilots.

This website might give you more insight into the status of airlines in the US and around the world.

http://www.airsafe.com/index.html
 
PlunaCRJ
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RE: Least Safe US Domestic Airline

Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:56 pm

Theoretically all airlines are equal in regard of safety. At least that is how it is supposed to be.

And nobody will tell the public about issues on an airline´s safety. (Except the EU Blacklist)
 
xtoler
Posts: 278
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RE: Least Safe US Domestic Airline

Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:00 pm

I thought the last major crash we had was a Delta Connection CRJ200 crash in Kentucky or Ohio last year or the year before. Wasn't the only survivor the F/O? The details are a little sketchy in my mind, but I think it was due to pilot error as it was just before sunrise and they took off from the wrong runway and wasn't familiar with the airport.

On the whole, US airlines are very safe. A lot safer than the idiots on the roads out here.
EMB145 F/A, F/E, J41 F/A, F/E, because my wife clipped my wings, armchair captain
 
ikramerica
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RE: Least Safe US Domestic Airline

Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:00 pm



Quoting 787EWR (Reply 2):
Goes to show the professionalism of pilots.

It's not all the pilots.

What about the mechanics who keep everything flying? The FAA, who despite being flamed a lot here, has made the rules solid to the point where things are much safer. Or even ATC, despite being "understaffed and overworked" miraculously prevent mid-air collisions and other problems.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
KELPkid
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RE: Least Safe US Domestic Airline

Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:57 pm



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 5):
It's not all the pilots.

What about the mechanics who keep everything flying? The FAA, who despite being flamed a lot here, has made the rules solid to the point where things are much safer. Or even ATC, despite being "understaffed and overworked" miraculously prevent mid-air collisions and other problems

Or even all of the Human Factors work that the flight departments at all of the major airlines have done since the early 1980's to completely change the work environment in the cockpit (mostly based on NASA research, I might add...)? Or the applied Human Factors engineering that goes into the cockpit design of a modern airliner?  twocents 
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
xtoler
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RE: Least Safe US Domestic Airline

Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:11 pm

Got to agree with you there, Ikramerica. It usually seems there is a rush to either blame the pilots or the FAA. There are a lot of other outside factors. I keep thinking of my Technical Instructor (Drill Instructor for the rest of the military branches) in the Air Force while in BASIC. He'd compare, say a bunk not made up properly to a wrench left in the engine compartment on an F16 and then the jet crashes. "God Dammit, Airman, what the f*** about this crease here in your bottom sheet? You call this a f***ing "hospital" corner? You can't even make a god damn bed, and you expect me to trust you with my aircraft? Due to your lack of detail, airman, I bet you'd leave a f***ing wrench in the engine compartment of my multi-million dollar F16, causing me to crash!" Doesn't matter that SSgt Tuttle was a C130 loadmaster before he became a TI, but he did have a way with words.

Sorry to veer off the topic slightly, but think of the Air Transat flight a few years back that had to glide into Lajes Air Base, Azores because of lackadaisical MX practices. Yet the Candadian government was quick to blame it on pilot error.
EMB145 F/A, F/E, J41 F/A, F/E, because my wife clipped my wings, armchair captain
 
jetdeltamsy
Posts: 2688
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 11:51 am

RE: Least Safe US Domestic Airline

Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:17 pm



Quoting PlunaCRJ (Reply 3):
Theoretically all airlines are equal in regard of safety. At least that is how it is supposed to be.

And nobody will tell the public about issues on an airline´s safety. (

What do you mean theoretically? The number of accidents per passenger mile is a public statistic. And the numbers speak for themselves. All US airlines meet the minimum standard required by the Federal Government, which is extrremely high, but not airlines perform at the same level.

As posted above, the information is right here... http://www.airsafe.com/airline.htm

.. at least through 2005.

Granted, the top two on this list are the result of one crash each. But statistically they have the highest rates.

Until 2005, Southwest had by far the lowest rate when they experienced their first fatal incident in Chicago. They still are one of the lowest, but not perfect like a few carriers out there.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
Cubsrule
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Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Least Safe US Domestic Airline

Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:20 pm



Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 8):
Until 2005, Southwest had by far the lowest rate when they experienced their first fatal incident in Chicago.

I hate to split hairs, but the MDW accident doesn't meet the FAA definition of a "fatal incident" because the fatality was a bystander, not a passenger.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
BR715-A1-30
Posts: 6525
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 9:30 am

RE: Least Safe US Domestic Airline

Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:25 pm



Quoting Xtoler (Reply 7):

And a drill instructor like that makes a VERY GOOD point. Nevermind the discipline, but he is correct. ANY signs of sloppiness in any other department (not making your bed properly) CAN and WILL show a complete disregard in any other department (such as leaving tools in the engine of an F16).

Slightly off topic though, but I this is a fine example to show that a drill instructor is not there to try to piss you off, or make you feel bad about yourself, but instead is there to make sure that you follow EVERY rule and don't put yourself or others in danger somewhere else down the line. If someone is TRULY committed to something, whether it be aircraft maintenance, or making your bed, that person will be a fine mechanic (or maid  Silly)
Puhdiddle
 
xtoler
Posts: 278
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:10 am

RE: Least Safe US Domestic Airline

Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:27 pm

Oh, forgot about that over run at MDW a few winters ago. The pax and crew came out unscathed, but, it's a shame about the litle boy in that car.

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 8):
What do you mean theoretically? The number of accidents per passenger mile is a public statistic

Here in the States it's public access due to the First Ammendment to our Bill of Rights and our Freedom of Information Policy Act. Not all coutries have that. You posed that question to PlunaCRJ from Uraguay, and I'm not sure what thier country's policy is on freedom of government information. PlunaCRJ, if you are still online, could you reitterate on your post? And what is Uraguay's policy on sharing information?

Larry
EMB145 F/A, F/E, J41 F/A, F/E, because my wife clipped my wings, armchair captain
 
silentbob
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RE: Least Safe US Domestic Airline

Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:11 pm

We may get a better idea if/when the NASA survey is released.
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: Least Safe US Domestic Airline

Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:32 am

Although FL is a fine airline today, back in the Valujet days it was one of the least safe US airlines. Although the Everglades accident was the only major crash, there were many other incidents that luckily did not prove fatal.

Along with USAir, UA had a bad run in the late 80's/early 90's, with four accidents/incidents that were all attributed to mechanical failures, three of them fatal.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
PlunaCRJ
Posts: 301
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RE: Least Safe US Domestic Airline

Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:57 am



Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 8):
What do you mean theoretically? The number of accidents per passenger mile is a public statistic. And the numbers speak for themselves. All US airlines meet the minimum standard required by the Federal Government, which is extrremely high, but not airlines perform at the same level

I am not talking about accident statistics, these are, after all, accidents that are random and can happen to everyone. ... I don´t care of the statistics but to inherent shortcomings on airline procedure in regards of safety.

Quoting Xtoler (Reply 11):
Here in the States it's public access due to the First Ammendment to our Bill of Rights and our Freedom of Information Policy Act. Not all coutries have that. You posed that question to PlunaCRJ from Uraguay, and I'm not sure what thier country's policy is on freedom of government information. PlunaCRJ, if you are still online, could you reitterate on your post? And what is Uraguay's policy on sharing information?

Pluna never had a major accident (fatalities, etc..) on its 70 year history. The only accident on Uruguayan soil that I can think about was the MD80 of Austral that crashed near Fray Bentos on an Argentine domestic flight. As far as I know, a transcript from the dialogue in the cockpit was released, as well as Uruguayan and Argentine reports on the accident.

I hop this answered your question.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Least Safe US Domestic Airline

Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:43 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 9):
I hate to split hairs, but the MDW accident doesn't meet the FAA definition of a "fatal incident" because the fatality was a bystander, not a passenger.

Can you provide a source for your information re the FAA definition of "fatal accident" (assume you mean "accident" not incident" as the WN overrun at MDW was definitely not an incident). It was my understanding that it made no difference in the FAA's categorization of accidents/incidents whether deaths or injuries involve passengers/crew on board the aircraft or any other persons. Following is from the FAA website but I know there are more detailed definitions. Note the reference to "any person" with respect to deaths or serious injuries. It doesn't say "any person on board the aircraft".

An accident is defined as "an occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight and all such persons have disembarked, and in which any person suffers death or serious injury, or in which the aircraft receives substantial damage". An incident is defined as "an occurrence other than an accident, associated with the operation of an aircraft, which affects or could affect the safety of operations."

Here is the MDW accident report.
http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2007/AAR0706.pdf

Note the "Injuries to Persons" table at the top of page 6 of the report (page 18 of the PDF). There is a column "other" which covers those involved who were not on the aircraft. However I see nothing that indicates that the FAA/NTSB considers deaths/injuries caused to people not aboard the aircraft as affecting the type of accident. And I don't think it should since a death is a death if it results from the accident.

[Edited 2007-12-04 19:44:49]

[Edited 2007-12-04 19:46:26]
 
flymia
Posts: 7120
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: Least Safe US Domestic Airline

Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:25 am



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 9):
I hate to split hairs, but the MDW accident doesn't meet the FAA definition of a "fatal incident" because the fatality was a bystander, not a passenger.

The WN overrun in MDW was a fatal accident and the only one in the airlines history. It is amazing that they have had only two major incidents and one fatality with the amount of landings and takeoffs they do every day for the past 25+ years. For the FAA it does matter if the person is on the ground or a passenger on the plane someone dies from the accident it is fatal.

Quoting Xtoler (Reply 4):
I thought the last major crash we had was a Delta Connection CRJ200 crash in Kentucky or Ohio last year or the year before. Wasn't the only survivor the F/O? The details are a little sketchy in my mind, but I think it was due to pilot error as it was just before sunrise and they took off from the wrong runway and wasn't familiar with the airport.

Well Comair 5191 was not a "major" airline accident since it was a regional aircraft. But there was a high loss of life with I think 56 dead and one survivor who was the FO. It was complete pilot error. Pilots took off on the wrong runway which was way to short. I read the CVR transcripts and the pilots seemed to more interested in talking about their career plans than flying the plane.
There has been 5 fatal airline accidents since AA 587 in the United States. Air Midwest Flight 5481,Corporate Airlines Flight 5966, Southwest Airlines Flight 1248, Chalk's Ocean Airways Flight 101, Comair Flight 5191. All of them regional airlines besides for WN 1248. Thats a pretty good record, no major airline crash in over 6 years. Good job to the FAA, Pilots, Mechanics and the rest of the aviation world in the US for the good record keep up the good work!
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
Goldenshield
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Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 3:45 pm

RE: Least Safe US Domestic Airline

Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:06 pm



Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 16):
But there was a high loss of life with I think 56 dead and one survivor who was the FO.

I'm guessing that the other 3 people were in the cargo bin?

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 16):
All of them regional airlines besides for WN 1248. Thats a pretty good record, no major airline crash in over 6 years. Good job to the FAA, Pilots, Mechanics and the rest of the aviation world in the US

Thanks for throwing every single regional airline in the U.S. into the same bucket. Shame on them for having smaller aircraft, younger (average) flight crews, and most of them making less than $1,000,000,000 in revenue per year!

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 16):
I read the CVR transcripts and the pilots seemed to more interested in talking about their career plans than flying the plane.

Alas, you forget that the PSA accident in San Diego was partially due to the pilot's inattentiveness while in critical airspace since they were talking about union and management issues the whole flight.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14220
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Least Safe US Domestic Airline

Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:54 pm



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 15):
Can you provide a source for your information re the FAA definition of "fatal accident" (assume you mean "accident" not incident" as the WN overrun at MDW was definitely not an incident).

The Airline Fatal Accident Rate, which did NOT include bystanders, used to be at

http://www.faa.gov/about/plans_repor...ia/Airline_Fatal_Accident_Rate.pdf

The link is broken right now, but this is the rate to which I was referring (and you're right; I mean accident when I wrote incident). Note, however, that airsafe.com uses this same methodology (they still show WN with 0 fatal events).

The NTSB publishes a list of accidents involving PASSENGER fatalities (for 121 operators); bystander fatalities are not included (not conclusive evidence, I realize).

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviation/Paxfatal.htm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 15):
However I see nothing that indicates that the FAA/NTSB considers deaths/injuries caused to people not aboard the aircraft as affecting the type of accident. And I don't think it should since a death is a death if it results from the accident.

In terms of deciding if it's an accident or incident, the location of the injury or fatality makes no difference. Here's the definition of an accident

Quote:
An occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight and all such persons have disembarked, and in which any person suffers death or serious injury, or in which the aircraft receives substantial damage

I think it's a decent definition. However, it fails when it makes an arbitrary distinction between ground accidents (accidents with ground equipment) that occur with people aboard and without.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
flymia
Posts: 7120
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: Least Safe US Domestic Airline

Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:28 pm



Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 17):
I'm guessing that the other 3 people were in the cargo bin?

Well I did say I think. there were 49 fatalities on Comair 5191.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 17):
Thanks for throwing every single regional airline in the U.S. into the same bucket. Shame on them for having smaller aircraft, younger (average) flight crews, and most of them making less than $1,000,000,000 in revenue per year!

Um, I did not throw every regional airline into the same bucket. I said there has not been a major airline crash in over 6 years. But there have been a few regional airline crashes. I am not saying majors are better than regionals etc.. I am just saying the US has not see a major airline crash this has nothing to do with the regionals. And that there have only been 4 regional airline crashes since 2001 is a great safety record too.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 17):
Alas, you forget that the PSA accident in San Diego was partially due to the pilot's inattentiveness while in critical airspace since they were talking about union and management issues the whole flight.

Why do I care about an accident that happened almost 29 years ago? I was just talking about Comair 5191.

My reply was not a bash at regionals. I was just stating facts of no major airline crashes and only 4 regional crashes in 6 years.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)

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