aviateur
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Widebody Memories & Invasion Of The RJs

Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:19 am

Ignoring for a moment the negative impact that airline scheduling practices have had on congestion, through their obsession with frequency and overuse of regional jets, let's reminisce about specific short haul markets that once relied on proverbial heavy metal. You kids today don't remember when airlines used widebody planes on short hauls. It still happens in a few markets -- I believe both JAL and All Nippon still use 747s domestically in Japan -- but on the whole it's rare.

Let's keep the flight times to two hours or under. Add-on connecting service, like TWA's Madrid-Barcelona flights or some of the add-ons used by PA, AA, and UA in South America, doesn't count.


Here are a few that I remember:



BOS-LGA Eastern A300

BOS-JFK Delta L-1011; TWA L-1011

LHR-CDG British Airways L-1011

BOS-BDA American DC-10; Delta L-1011



PS
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DAL7e7
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RE: Widebody Memories & Invasion Of The RJs

Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:27 am

I remember one specific one and that's ATL-MSY-ATL on DL with the L-1011. I flew on this route with my Dad when I was a little kid.

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DAL7e7
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BMI727
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RE: Widebody Memories & Invasion Of The RJs

Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:29 am

I flew a TW L-1011 on STL-MCO in about 1992 or so.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Cross757
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RE: Widebody Memories & Invasion Of The RJs

Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:33 am

A few that I can think of:

1. AA flew AUS-DFW with a DC-10

2. I personally flew on DL from SLC-DEN-SLC on a 762 in 1998

3. United once operated COS-DEN with a DC-10 (though I think this was an add-on)

4. TWA operated STL-ABQ with a 762 and L-1011 in the 1980's...used to park at the C-gates which were attached to the west end of the main terminal...picked my Dad up from that flight multiple times.
 
28L28L
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RE: Widebody Memories & Invasion Of The RJs

Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:34 am

AA DFW-AUS/ELP/IAH/SAT
DL BOS-BDL
TW LAX-SFO
 
skymiler
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RE: Widebody Memories & Invasion Of The RJs

Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:37 am

UA IAD -> EWR, DC-10!
I love to fly, and it shows!
 
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N62NA
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RE: Widebody Memories & Invasion Of The RJs

Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:40 am

EWR/LGA-ORD TW L1011, UA and AA DC-10s (and UA sometimes ran 747-100/200 ORD-EWR)

EWR/LGA/JFK-ATL DL and EA L1011

EWR-DTW NW DC-10

PHL-EWR NW DC-10

BWI-EWR World Airways DC-10

LGA-YYZ AA DC-10

MIA-MSY National Airlines (the 1st one) DC-10

MIA-ATL EA and DL L1011

Great old days!
 
JohnJ
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RE: Widebody Memories & Invasion Of The RJs

Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:44 am

BDL had a fair amount of widebody service "back in the day", including United DC-10s to Boston, and in the late 1990s, Delta ran a 767-300 BDL-JFK. In the 1970s, Delta ran L-1011s on MEM-ATL. I often flew on Delta 767s between DFW and FLL, and the late night flight continued on to PBI, only about 50 miles away.

But there are still some examples if you look far enough. Just last week I flew on a LAN 767-300 with winglets from Guayaquil, Ecuador to Quito - flying time about 35 minutes.
 
Kent350787
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RE: Widebody Memories & Invasion Of The RJs

Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:51 am

Quoting aviateur (Thread starter):
I believe both JAL and All Nippon still use 747s domestically in Japan -- but on the whole it's rare.

Another remaining market is SYD-MEL and SYD-BNE, for which QF uses mostly 763s (occasional 738s and A332s) running half hourly.....
 
e38
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RE: Widebody Memories & Invasion Of The RJs

Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:04 am

On January 4, 2001, I was scheduled to fly from Minneapolis to Dallas/Fort Worth aboard Sun Country flight 501 and it was supposed to be operated by a 727-200, depart MSP 6:00 a.m. arrive DFW 8:30 a.m. Due to a mechanical issue with the 727, Sun Country substituted a DC-10 on the route. What made this flight special was that the aircraft was DC-10-15 N153SY, cn 48276, originally delivered to Aeromexico in 1981.

From what I understand, this DC-10 was one of only nine Series 15 aircraft manufactured by McDonnell Douglas--four for Aeromexico and five for Mexicana.

Overall, it was quite a nice treat, getting to ride on a DC-10 between Minneapolis and Dallas/Fort Worth. There were not very many folks on the flight and it was very comfortable. They even served a light breakfast consisting of a blueberry muffin, cup of yogurt, orange juice, and coffee. The flight attendants were very pleasant and attentive. When we landed in Dallas, the Captain--Captain Dave Barnaby--stood at the door and thanked everyone for flying Sun Country. That really added a nice touch. Very professional, very exemplary, very well done. It's not often I see flight crews do this anymore. Most of the time the pilots don't speak to the passengers as they deplane, rarely make eye contact, and often don't even come out of the flight deck. Thank you, Captain Barnaby.

These days when I travel between MSP and DFW, it's often a regional jet--Mesaba CRJ-900 or Compass ERJ-175. They are comfortable, but just not the same as riding the DC-10! Thanks, Sun Country.
 
BOACCunard
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RE: Widebody Memories & Invasion Of The RJs

Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:32 am

ATL-MCO/TPA/PBI/FLL/MIA Delta L-1011; 767-200; 767-300; 767-400ER; MD-11
Getting There is Half the Fun!
 
474218
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RE: Widebody Memories & Invasion Of The RJs

Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:38 am

PSA flew L-1011's SAN-LAX-SFO.
 
Timaay419
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RE: Widebody Memories & Invasion Of The RJs

Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:39 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
I flew a TW L-1011 on STL-MCO in about 1992 or so.

TWA flew the L10 on the St. Louis - Kansas City route, too...up until the late 90s or so. It was an evening departure from STL, if I remember correctly. It was an extremely short flight for such a fat plane.
 
Carpethead
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RE: Widebody Memories & Invasion Of The RJs

Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:50 am

Japan, particularly the Tokyo market, is so unique that because of the limited amount of slots, widebodies have to be used.
Now using 777s and 744s may not be the most effective use of a widebody but this occured because of the circumstances with Tokyo Haneda.

The next market where widebodies will be used on short-haul runs will be China. Despite building and expansion of airports, the sheer number of passengers will require 787/A350-types to be placed on domestic runs between large cities such as Bejing-Shanghai.

RJs are needed, fortunately they aren't too prevalant in this part of the world.
 
miaami
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RE: Widebody Memories & Invasion Of The RJs

Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:52 am

In the early 80's TWA flew L1011's out of CMH
CMH - IND - LAX
CMH - ORD
CMH - LGA
CMH - STL then switched to 767 for a while
and if I remember correctly
CMH - MCI - LAX

Also Eastern flew the A300 in conjunction with a cargo company around 1985 or thereabout out of CMH for a short time.
CMH - BOS
CMH - IAH
 
jetdudetim
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RE: Widebody Memories & Invasion Of The RJs

Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:57 am

America West flew the 747-200 from LAS-PHX
 
tharanga
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RE: Widebody Memories & Invasion Of The RJs

Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:05 am

Quoting carpethead (Reply 13):
Japan, particularly the Tokyo market, is so unique that because of the limited amount of slots, widebodies have to be used.

We'd probably see fewer regional jets in some US sectors if the number of slots available were more realistic and thus lower. 747s, no, but fewer RJs.

Quoting carpethead (Reply 13):
The next market where widebodies will be used on short-haul runs will be China. Despite building and expansion of airports, the sheer number of passengers will require 787/A350-types to be placed on domestic runs between large cities such as Bejing-Shanghai.

Good thought. I wonder how this will interplay with all the new rail lines, which will be competitive with air even over fairly long distances.
 
Goldenshield
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RE: Widebody Memories & Invasion Of The RJs

Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:51 am

Quoting tharanga (Reply 16):
We'd probably see fewer regional jets in some US sectors if the number of slots available were more realistic and thus lower. 747s, no, but fewer RJs.

The numbers ARE realistic. If the airport can handle X number of arrivals, then use them. Also, to deny an RJ just because it doesn't fit your ideal "realism" would mean a large downsizing of aircraft on even the big markets, as there would be a lot less passengers to feed those "ideal" flights. Sure,metropolis to metropolis could fill a large plane no problem, but only having flying from metropolis to metropolis and leaving the rest of the country to suffer is dumb.
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mayor
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RE: Widebody Memories & Invasion Of The RJs

Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:54 am

Quoting JohnJ (Reply 7):
In the 1970s, Delta ran L-1011s on MEM-ATL.



We also ran 747s/DC-10s/L1011s from ORD-ATL and DC-10s ORD-MEM-ATL before the L-1011s were delivered.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
rj777
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RE: Widebody Memories & Invasion Of The RJs

Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:55 am

I remember OMA-DEN UA DC-10
 
tharanga
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RE: Widebody Memories & Invasion Of The RJs

Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:02 am

Quoting goldenshield (Reply 17):
The numbers ARE realistic.

Then why is there congestion on the ground and in the air?

If the slot numbers are realistic, it's only for perfect conditions.

Quoting goldenshield (Reply 17):
Also, to deny an RJ just because it doesn't fit your ideal "realism" would mean a large downsizing of aircraft on even the big markets, as there would be a lot less passengers to feed those "ideal" flights. Sure,metropolis to metropolis could fill a large plane no problem, but only having flying from metropolis to metropolis and leaving the rest of the country to suffer is dumb.

I object strongly, as you assign to me all sorts of things I did not say.

All I said is that the number of slots are not realistic, and offered one possible outcome if there were fewer slots. There are various possible outcomes, but regardless of how it plays out, there would be less congestion.

Which, after all, is the very point of having slot restrictions.

IN any case, I apologise, as this is not the topic being discussed here. Back to nostalgia.

[Edited 2010-04-27 22:08:59]
 
redtailsforever
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RE: Widebody Memories & Invasion Of The RJs

Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:06 am

I remember Northwest in the early nineties. A 747-200 MSP to ORD. the plane flew on to NRT. MSP to DTW. That was on a 744. You want to see a plane put a 757 to shame. You watch a 744 doing a short 750 mile trip with a small morning payload. That plane would fly over my house at 3000 feet when lighter DC-9's were at 1800 ft. I also remember MSP to MKE on DC-10's. I did fly the ORD-MSP 747 on Northwest in 1991. There were 45 pax. We were put up in Buisness class for weight dist. We also had 15 friendly off duty flight attendants. that were 25-30 years old flying back to the MSP base seated with us. Oh the good old days.
 
Goldenshield
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RE: Widebody Memories & Invasion Of The RJs

Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:09 am

Quoting tharanga (Reply 20):
If the slot numbers are realistic, it's only for perfect conditions.

If ORD planned for worst-case scenario each and every single day, UA and AA might as well move their hubs somewhere else, and given the worst-case for ORD, you might only have 4 flights a day to each of the airlines that currently fly to ORD. That would leave a suffering metropolis, but train travel would go up.
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tharanga
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RE: Widebody Memories & Invasion Of The RJs

Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:27 am

I think I had a L1011 on ATL-RSW, Delta. Does that sound reasonable? Reply 10 lists some other ATL-Florida, but not that one.

Quoting goldenshield (Reply 22):
If ORD planned for worst-case scenario each and every single day,

Your daily schedule need not be based on the worst-case scenario, but it has to be somewhat resilient to the inevitable upsets. There is room between the two extremes. Overshoot on this side, and the normal state of affairs is to have backups, hidden by increasing block times. But even then, the on-time rates at some of these airports is pretty lousy.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Widebody Memories & Invasion Of The RJs

Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:32 am

Yes I also remember lots of widebodies, however frankly I prefers today's smaller equipment with higher frequencies.

I recall domestic city-pairs that had very low frequency - sometimes mere 1x daily by a major carrier which today thankfully have much more scheduling choices.

Also part of the equation one needs to remember the widebodies were really for an era before hubs also. Once hubs truly developed the smaller equipment became key to making them work.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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September11
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RE: Widebody Memories & Invasion Of The RJs

Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:15 pm

Quoting MiAAmi (Reply 14):
In the early 80's TWA flew L1011's out of CMH
CMH - IND - LAX
CMH - ORD
CMH - LGA
CMH - STL then switched to 767 for a while
and if I remember correctly
CMH - MCI - LAX

Also Eastern flew the A300 in conjunction with a cargo company around 1985 or thereabout out of CMH for a short time.
CMH - BOS
CMH - IAH

TWA had 5 gates in CMH.
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PHLBOS
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RE: Widebody Memories & Invasion Of The RJs

Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:39 pm

Back in the early 90s, TW flew the L-1011 on some of its PHL-STL routes (I would always see one parked at the end of Terminal E).

IIRC, NW used to fly the DC-10 to PHL; not sure for which route (there's an old photo of one parked next to a NW 727 at Terminal E in an older version of the Neenah Foundary catalogue under Airport Castings).

Back when SwissAir was around and served PHL (in a 743); after departing PHL, it would make a stop at BOS to pick additional passengers before crossing the Atlantic.
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Jeremy
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RE: Widebody Memories & Invasion Of The RJs

Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:12 pm

TW
LAS-PHX-LAS
L-1011

TW
SEA-PDX-SEA
L-1011

AA
LAS-LAX-LAS
767-200

AT
JFK-YMX-JFK
747-400
You are now free to be sexually harassed and then terminated for filing a complaint--Southwest Airlines to me.
 
PI4EVER
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RE: Widebody Memories & Invasion Of The RJs

Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:45 pm

EA L1011 GSO-ATL-SJU as an originator in the morning. A/C RON in GSO from a SJU-ATL-GSO the previous evening;.
EA served a hot breakfast in F out of GSO, and coffee/juice and a muffin in Y......on a segment that lasted about 45 minutes.
On the 2 occasions I flew it from GSO and back from ATL it was packed. This ole non-rev would get nervous I'd get bumped and the only other service was on a DL DC-9 that was equally packed. EA subsequently withdrew it from GSO, and routed the L10 to RDU and CLT for a very brief time.
watch what you want. you may get it.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Widebody Memories & Invasion Of The RJs

Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:50 pm

Some of my shorter (under 2 hours, some under 1 hour) widebody flights that come to mind:

CP Air 747 and DC-10 YYZ-YUL-YYZ.
CP Air 747 and DC-10 YYC-YVR.
CP Air 747 MXP-FCO. (flight operated YYZ-MXP-FCO).
Canadian 767 YVR-YYC-YVR and YYZ-YUL-YYZ.
Air Canada 767 YYZ-YUL-YYZ.
Pacific Western 767 SEA-YVR.
United DC-10 YVR-SEA-YVR and ORD-CLE-ORD.
Swissair 747 and DC-10 YYZ-YMX-YYZ (their YYZ flights used to stop at Montreal Mirabel airport, YMX).
British Airways L-1011 YEG-YVR (during the brief period when BA started service to YVR in the late 1970s and some flights stopped at YYC or YEG).
British Airways L-1011 LHR-CDG and LHR-NCE.
British Airways 747 SEA-YVR (when BA started service to SEA it was a tag-on to YVR).
British Airways 767 LHR-GVA-LHR,
KLM A310 LHR-AMS-LHR
Air France A310 NCE-CDG.
Lufthansa DC-10 YYC-YVR (LH also stopped in YYC en route to YVR when they first started service to YVR).
Malaysian A300 KUL-PEN-KUL.
Eastern A300 MIA-FLL (by far my shortest widebody flight, 18 nm).
Varig A300 CGH-GIG.
Qantas 747 YVR-SFO-YVR (when QF served YVR as a tag-on from SFO).
Swiss A330 and A340 GVA-ZRH (occasional substitutions for A319/320/321)
American 767 ZRH-GVA (during brief period in 1980s when AA operated ORD-ZRH-GVA).
 
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AmricanShamrok
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RE: Widebody Memories & Invasion Of The RJs

Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:15 pm

I've flown:

BFS-DUB (EI A330) once [diversion from SNN] - flight time: 0h20m
SNN-BFS (EI A330) once [diversion en route to DUB] - flight time: 0h50m
SNN-DUB (EI A330, B747) 15 times - flight time: 0h45m
BOS-ORD (EI B747) 4 times - flight time: 2h30m
 
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LHRBFSTrident
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RE: Widebody Memories & Invasion Of The RJs

Sat May 01, 2010 6:27 am

UA DC-10-10 YVR-SEA with a snack service(!)

BA LHR-BFS L1011 (usually at Easter holidays as a SuperShuttle service)

BA LHR-EDI 763 regularly scheduled x1 or x2 daily rotations on SuperShuttle

PA TXL-FRA A310 as part of their Internal German Services

SA JNB-DUR A300B4
 
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aerdingus
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RE: Widebody Memories & Invasion Of The RJs

Sun May 02, 2010 7:18 pm

DUB-SNN TS A310

DUB-SNN 5G A333

 
A306 A313 A319 A320 A321 A333 A346 A359 ATR42 ATR72 B734 B737 B738 B744 B772 B789 C152 MD80 RJ85 S340
 
CairnterriAIR
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RE: Widebody Memories & Invasion Of The RJs

Mon May 10, 2010 10:10 pm

BDL had quite a bit of wide body service dating back to the early 70's.

UA~ BDL to ORD: 747(in 1974), DC-10, 767
BDL to CLE:767
BDL to BOS/LAX: DC-10

DL~ BDL to BOS/BDA: L-1011, 767
BDL to JFK: L-1011, 767
BDL to ATL: L-1011, 767
BDL to CVG: 767
BDL to FLL: 767
BDL to PBI: 767

EA: BDL to MIA: L-1011
BDL to ATL :L-1011
BDL to BOS/SJU :L-1011
BDL to BWI/SJU :A300

AA:BDL to JFK/SFO: 747
BDL to ORD: DC-10
BDL to SJU: A300

And while not widebodies, DL,TW,AA, EA, and UA all flew DC-8-60/70's, and 707's on various routes as well.

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