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lnglive1011yyz
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:17 am

Quoting jetBlueguy22 (Reply 40):
Yes people you know. But there are people that need to go to the UAE. Its sad that governments have to battle like this. They are just costing their citizens money.

Funny, when you look in the paper, or on the ads on tv, the only "tourist grab" commercials you see are Florida, Vegas, Europe, Australia, etc etc. I have not *once* ever seen an ad for the UAE

I would go as far to suggest (and, this is just pure speculation, from many MANY discussions with people) that the ONLY people travelling to the UAE from Canada are people who immigrated from the Region, and business people, and the odd tourist. Infact, a few of my Indian friends have said they would travel Emirates over Air India to go home, as Emirates has more choices into their relatively remote area of India that they came from...

It's *not* a tourist-haven for Canadians. Trust me.

The top 15 destinations Canadians will be headed to this year are:

1. London, UK
2. Paris
3. New York City
4. Bangkok, Thailand
5. Vancouver, BC
6. Sydney, Australia
7. Dublin, Ireland
8. Manchester, UK
9. Frankfurt, Germany
10. Amsterdam, Netherlands
11. Toronto, ON
12. Orlando, FL
13. Rome, Italy
14. Cancun, Mexico
15. Glasgow, UK

*Source, Canoe.ca

In fact, the UAE isn't even ON the top *50* list. For the UAE to be a MAJOR concern for the Canadian Gov't to be worried over heavy-handed Visas, they would need to be more of a major destination for the taxpayer in Canada. I would suspect that this is exactly why our Gov't has chosen the route they've gone. Don't bully, negotiate.

I still think that if anything, the response to the denial of additional flights is purely heavy handed.. But I wouldn't expect anything less from the UAE "Government"....

I continue to suggest that the majority of people on the Emirates flights from Canada to the UAE would be ex-pats of the region, or business people. It's not your family of 4... They're off to Disney.

1011yyz
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ZBBYLW
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:17 am

Quoting peanuts (Reply 41):
What I do find interesting to know is this: How is it that New Zealand and Australia found a way to get along with EK and Dubai as compared to Canada? What are the key differences?

If you look to see what has happened to other airlines that used to serve the Europe - Australia/NZ market you would find your answer. While I don't have a problem with a company out doing an other my big problem is that it is EK. EK is known for their poor practices, I would much rather have a company such as QF, BA etc serving the market than EK. As far as Canada is concerned, I would prefer to see the likes of AC (jobs at stake), LH, BA, AF etc continue to serve the country that they have for many years. Those same companies also have practices I respect.

I suggest any of you to go read on PPRUNE the tails of EK and how they work their pilots. I have friends who work for EK and know from them what they have to put up with. A lot of EK guys feel that one day there will be a EK hole in the ground with some pretty tired pilots in the pointy end.
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David_itl
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:15 am

Quoting zbbylw (Reply 51):
EK is known for their poor practices, I would much rather have a company such as QF, BA etc serving the market than EK.

So EK has poor practice and has been placed onto a blacklist then? Please cite examples of these poor practices.

Quoting zbbylw (Reply 51):
I suggest any of you to go read on PPRUNE the tails of EK and how they work their pilots.

Heresay. You never read about employees being happy at their work. If things were that bad, then EK wouldn't be having aircraft in the air and they would have been investigated with sanctions applied by all the relevant authorities.
 
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OA260
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:28 am

Quoting david_itl (Reply 52):
So EK has poor practice and has been placed onto a blacklist then? Please cite examples of these poor practices.

Out of curiosity what are the rights of crew working for EK in DXB? I have heard that there are little to none and that they can be sacked and deported without much explanation. Can you shed some light?
 
Quokka
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:52 am

What have employee rights or complaints to do with a thread about visa fees?

Perhaps a new thread can be opened by those who wish to discuss the relative merits or otherwise of working for EK.
 
ZBBYLW
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:00 pm

Quoting Quokka (Reply 54):

Personally I feel that the safety of the airline should be brought into question. It's amazing they have not had a fatigue related accident that have had any casualties. JNB and MEL (or was it PER) are good examples of what it's like to work for EK.

As a Canadian, I would rather have a company such as AC, LH, BA etc... fly into our Country than one that is known to give no rights to their staff. The same goes with Nike, some people chose to make a big deal out of the child sweat shops and others turned a blind eye. I feel our government should support the better airlines out there not only when it comes to service (and 10 abreast in a 777 is really service) but also safety standards etc... In DXB you can get sacked for anything - call in fatigued too many times and good bye!

Quoting david_itl (Reply 52):
So EK has poor practice and has been placed onto a blacklist then? Please cite examples of these poor practices.

How about doing some research for your self - take a look at the scheduling the A330 pilots have to deal with, or even the 777. The only good schedule they have right now is the A380 schedules, however once they start taking more and more, I have a feeling that will also turn into a cluster f*ck..
Keep the shinny side up!
 
David_itl
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:57 pm

Quoting zbbylw (Reply 55):
How about doing some research for your self

Why should I? Poor practice cited. Therefore evidence is needed to prove it. Not to disprove it.
 
fly2yyz
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:05 am

Just had a thought, if they want so much frequency into YYZ, why not just get JetBlue to fly multiple frequencies connecting on to their US flights or get a partner in Europe to fly to multiple destinations in Canada?
 
golfradio
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:23 pm

Quoting Fly2yyz (Reply 57):

That's not how EK operates. They don't like to codeshare.
CSeries forever. Bring back the old site.
 
ojas
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Fri Dec 31, 2010 6:00 pm

Quoting Quokka (Reply 33):
Interesting history of the dispute so far. Don't get me wrong, I fully support Canada's right to determine who should have access and under what terms.

Exactly. If Canada does not want EK to expand into Canada, so be it.

However the reasons given here saying the O-D traffic is not enough etc etc, I do not buy that. Is there a model that Canada adopts that for a certain % of O - D X number of weekly flights are allowed? Say Canada - Switzerland have open skies agreement .. so what's the O - D market? I would like to know if there is such a model or not. It's a clear case that Air Canada cannot compete with Emirates, Etihad or Qatar Airways for that matter which is why the protective approach. I just wish the people supporting the Canadian govt. just accept this fact.

And please don't waste time in saying EK gets cheap fuel and all of that which has been repeatedly proven to be false.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 15):
Tunisia, and the EU (SN to Africa, LH to Asia/Africa). India (AI and 9W) is on the to-do list. Watch for expanded TK and AI service.

I'm sorry but I fail to see how do you expect Indian carriers to expand service to Canada? Yes signing an open skies agreement would benefit both countries in the larger context, but let me assure you neither 9W nor AI are at all interested in expanding flights into Canada any further .... and yes YVR is included in their not-to-do list.

If and when Kingfisher airlines desires flights to YYZ the air service agreement would be amended.
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StarAC17
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:13 pm

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 13):
I bet the freezing weather which covers 200% of Canada is a nice welcome to tourists. Well, why go to Canada, where we can just open a freezer and see the ice. Very very exciting. The UAE is seeing a million British tourists a year and thousands of Europeans which make Dubai their new home. Would much rather live in a hot climate like Dubai (which I have) than to spend all my money for Wild Canadian Moose to keep me warm during winter.

To each is own but we have a huge tourist market who have never experienced cold and snow not to mention some of the best skiing in the world. (I know lots of Aussies and family and friends in Florida who haven't seen snow ever). I see it as routine to experience that as a Canadian and see a beach on an ocean more of a novelty. The same for all the snowbirds here who will undoubtedly in the next few weeks as winter kicks up that will head down to the Caribbean or Florida

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 9):
Is it fair that LH gets more flights to more cities than EK?

   We have an openskies with the EU and any of their airlines can fly to Canada as much as they want and the same applies to AC or any other Canadian airlines. Also LH have built up their Canadian markets for decades even before *A was formed which was only in 1997.

Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 39):
Quoting blueflyer (Reply 29):
The US sets pretty draconian conditions over overflight rights for its territory, and carriers operating to and from Canada have had to adopt some practices that are close to breaching Canadian laws, if not downright illegal (I think the jury is still out on that), but after consultations between Ottawa and Washington, the Canadian government asked them to comply because it is, after all, US air space, however misguided some rules might be.

Not to go too far off topic, but blueflyer, can you tell us more about this...what kind of laws do you mean?

The main issue that the US government wants the passenger lists of all aircraft flights that overfly the US from not just Canada but anywhere. Which is their right as a country but in Canada disclosing that information is bordering illegal and what we want is to as I understand is cross check the US no-fly on overfly routes lists and not disclose this information to the US government.

The biggest issue I personally have with this is that this gives the US government the names of all of the Canadians and the many Americans that enter Cuba through Canada and there is legislation out there that I believe Bill Clintion signed that can punish not just Americans but any other citizen or business of say Canada that operates a company that may do business in both say the US and Cuba.

Here is a link to the law below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helms%E2%80%93Burton_Act
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longhauler
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:44 pm

Quoting ojas (Reply 59):
However the reasons given here saying the O-D traffic is not enough etc etc, I do not buy that. Is there a model that Canada adopts that for a certain % of O - D X number of weekly flights are allowed? Say Canada - Switzerland have open skies agreement .. so what's the O - D market? I would like to know if there is such a model or not. It's a clear case that Air Canada cannot compete with Emirates, Etihad or Qatar Airways for that matter which is why the protective approach. I just wish the people supporting the Canadian govt. just accept this fact.


All bilateral agreements with Canada start the same way ...usually 6 frequencies a week. Then, if a case can be made for further frequencies, then more are granted. The UAE have not been able to give a case supporting more traffic between Canada and the UAE other than they really really really want it, and every one else gives them what they want ... why wont Canada???? In fact, they have been caught with quite a few lies. This does not fly well in Canada.

It has been interesting to watch the Canadian press over the last year or so. The public initially favoured the case of the UAE until they pushed it too far. Then they lied about where they wanted to fly in Canada. Then they kicked the Canadian military base out of their country. The they closed the airspace to our Minister or Defence. Then they decided to charge $1000 visa fees if you fly in on any other airline but their own. More and more, the editorials and letters in the large Canadian newspapers refer to the "Spoiled Little Prince's in the Desert that need to be re-diapered and put to bed".

There was a great editorial cartoon recently of several Canadian Soldiers carrying a casket draped in a Canadian flag, leaving Camp Mirage, the caption read ... "Yeah, you're welcome a**holes".

You may think this is about protecting Air Canada, but in fact it is much more than that. Starting with, it is a BI-lateral agreement. Namely, what's in it for Canada? So far nothing, it is very much in favour if just the UAE. The Canadian government is protecting all airlines that have over the last 5 or so decades been flying to Canada, starting slowly and building traffic.

But more and more, it is about the best way to treat a spoiled child. If you give in, they learn that is the proper way to act.

As per your example ...you would be surprised, but in fact there is a lot of traffic between Canada and Switzerland, and always has been, right back to the day with TCA flying L1049Gs and Swissair flying DC-7Cs between the two countries.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Viscount724
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:18 pm

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 9):
Government of Canada which does not encourage free trade and has an iron grip on whose allowed to fly there and whose not
Quoting ojas (Reply 59):
Canada - Switzerland have open skies agreement .. so what's the O - D market?

I recall a GVA airport report a few years ago listing the top 5 O&D longhaul destinations from GVA that then lacked direct service. YUL was one of the 5, and AC has of course since started service. Another was IAD (also now has direct UA service). Two others were ORD and NRT (which lack GVA service). I forget the 5th one.
 
ojas
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Sat Jan 01, 2011 7:58 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 61):
All bilateral agreements with Canada start the same way ...usually 6 frequencies a week.

Then why has Qatar Airways got 3 weekly passenger services? If according to you Canada gives 6 weekly without any issue then why did Qatar not get 6 weekly passenger frequencies similar to the UAE?

Quoting longhauler (Reply 61):
The UAE have not been able to give a case supporting more traffic between Canada and the UAE other than they really really really want it, and every one else gives them what they want ... why wont Canada???? In fact, they have been caught with quite a few lies. This does not fly well in Canada.
Quoting longhauler (Reply 61):
Starting with, it is a BI-lateral agreement. Namely, what's in it for Canada? So far nothing, it is very much in favour if just the UAE. The Canadian government is protecting all airlines that have over the last 5 or so decades been flying to Canada, starting slowly and building traffic.

What has Canada got with agreements with Kuwait, Egypt, South Africa et al where having an Air Canada presence is highly unlikely?

Quoting longhauler (Reply 61):
As per your example ...you would be surprised, but in fact there is a lot of traffic between Canada and Switzerland,

My example was more directed to the fact that does 3 weekly to UAE with the O - D traffic falls in proportion with the open skies with Switzerland.

Also do not forget that EK, EY serve a LARGE Pakistani population in Canada who otherwise do not have any convenient option to fly to their home countries. What Air Canada cannot withstand is how down the years EK, EY take the chunk of the traffic heading to India thus hurting AC - LH/LX/OS. Add to the fact that now AI flies non stop to YYZ and 9W too has a decent fan following. The way LH, BA fell behind EK, EY, QR for the Indo - US traffic, the same is happening with the traffic ex- Canada. Which is why Similar to Canada, Germany too is resisting further expansion of EK. But then Germany is well served by EK. To Canada it would be nice that EK, EY gets daily A380 capacity ... but not bend down to unrealistic demands.

The tactics that EK adopted need to be dealt with strongly, otherwise take a look at India and you will know how EK barges into the market.
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longhauler
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:09 pm

Quoting ojas (Reply 63):
Then why has Qatar Airways got 3 weekly passenger services? If according to you Canada gives 6 weekly without any issue then why did Qatar not get 6 weekly passenger frequencies similar to the UAE?


Qatar does have 6 weekly frequencies. I believe they are starting with 3 passenger and 3 cargo flights a week,

Quoting ojas (Reply 63):
What has Canada got with agreements with Kuwait, Egypt, South Africa et al where having an Air Canada presence is highly unlikely?


In each of those examples you cite, Air Canada (for example) has code-share agreements in place for flights to those respective countries. Usually, but not always a Star Alliance partner. A bilateral agreement is required even if a Canadian airlines does not fly there, but only code-shares.

Quoting ojas (Reply 63):
My example was more directed to the fact that does 3 weekly to UAE with the O - D traffic falls in proportion with the open skies with Switzerland.


I would imagine so. There has been a bilateral agreement between the two countries since the 1950s. Even before the advent of computers and alliances it clearly showed a demand for travel between the two countries. Today, through the airline alliances, the government of Canada knows exactly how many people every day, every week, every year travel and wish to travel between every country on the earth.

Quoting ojas (Reply 63):
The tactics that EK adopted need to be dealt with strongly, otherwise take a look at India and you will know how EK barges into the market.


While I do agree with competition, this is an excellent point. India was the first target area of EK and look at the result. Not only do they dominate the market, but they have driven or are trying to drive all else away. It is not a coincidence that both Air India and Jet Airways are in poor financial health.

It is also not a coincidence that the governments of Germany, France and the UK have looked at Canada's response with agreement!
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golfradio
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:07 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 61):
The public initially favoured the case of the UAE until they pushed it too far

  

Though I always fly AC and 9W to BOM, I initially supported EK getting daily flights just for the reason that a lot of people I know used EK for 1 stop flights to secondary Indian cities like AMD, HYD etc.

But camp Mirage was the turning point. Believe it or not a number of my friends whom were EK regulars are now unhappy how EK has tried to push it's agenda through. At least one EK regular I am close friends with actually flew 9W the long way to AMD, just out of spite of EK.

EK and the U.A.E don't realize how they have shot themselves in the foot by upping the ante. Amongst Canadians, they have lost all sympathy and gained a lot of antagonism.
CSeries forever. Bring back the old site.
 
ZBBYLW
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:24 pm

Quoting ojas (Reply 63):
To Canada it would be nice that EK, EY gets daily A380 capacity ... but not bend down to unrealistic demands.

A Daily A380 for each?? You do realize that we are talking about Canada right? Populations in the low 30 millions? This is not the US with 10 times that... Even though we have a lot of land mass, many people seem to forget that just shy of 34 million people granting EK and EY each an A380 would probably not only effect AC, but LH, BA etc... What would then happen is people who have worked for those companies for years in Canada would then loose their jobs in favour of minimum wage replacement workers for the likes of EK and EY.

Simply put, it would be detrimental to the airline industry in Canada. Further more, the way the UAE have handled the situation is pathetic, I truly hope that other countries really start restricting the likes of EK.
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ojas
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Sat Jan 01, 2011 6:59 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 64):
Qatar does have 6 weekly frequencies. I believe they are starting with 3 passenger and 3 cargo flights a week,

I have categoraically mentioned PASSENGER FREQUENCIES. Qatar would have taken 6 weekly pax services without further dicussion. But Canada was not ready to give more than 3. Besides it also does not make sense .. for example tomorrow Oman air want to operate to Canada and Canada just wants to give 6 weekly cargo frequencies? You cannot say "oh but they have cargo rights".

Quoting longhauler (Reply 64):
In each of those examples you cite, Air Canada (for example) has code-share agreements in place for flights to those respective countries. Usually, but not always a Star Alliance partner. A bilateral agreement is required even if a Canadian airlines does not fly there, but only code-shares.

Well Qatar code shares with all major Star alliance airlines. UA, LH, US, NH, BD are some examples that come to my mind and Qatar would have loved to have an AC code share on their flight had it been more than 3 weekly, that I can assure.

Quoting zbbylw (Reply 66):
A Daily A380 for each?? You do realize that we are talking about Canada right? Populations in the low 30 millions?

There are so many places where the Air Canada or Star connections are poor. Example Pakistan, Sri Lanka, some points in India. The only traffic that EK actually fights with AC and its peers is to India.
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longhauler
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:51 pm

Quoting ojas (Reply 67):
I have categoraically mentioned PASSENGER FREQUENCIES. Qatar would have taken 6 weekly pax services without further dicussion.


Yes you did. And I will say again. Qatar was given 6 frequencies to use as they wish. (As too was EK btw). Qatar Airways chose 3 passenger and 3 cargo flights a week. They could have chosen 6 passenger flights a week, but that is not how they chose to use their allotment. As per Canada's bilateral policy, if they can prove a need for more, it will be considered.

Quoting ojas (Reply 67):
Well Qatar code shares with all major Star alliance airlines. UA, LH, US, NH, BD are some examples that come to my mind and Qatar would have loved to have an AC code share on their flight had it been more than 3 weekly, that I can assure.


Do you know that as fact? Has Qatar Airways approached AC to code-share? As nothing has been publicly announced on this side of the ocean. Or is this just wishful thinking? I would imagine, if it were beneficial to both parties it will happen.

The bilateral works both ways. That is to say, if Canada feels they need more than 6 flights a week, then they too have to prove need. If Air Canada and Qatar Airways wish to code-share, that is their prerogative. However, like all agreements, they start with 6 flights a week, whether AC code-shares or not.

Understand, this is the policy of Canada's government, not Air Canada. This policy is in effect to protect Canada's aviation industry, not Air Canada.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
AirCanada787
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:49 pm

Quoting CharlieNoble (Reply 11):
I've got news for you. Most if not all governments have an iron grip on air travel to and from their country...and on a lot of other trade-related issues.

Fairness is completely irrelevant, it's all about what Canadians (via their elected government) percieve to be in their best interest. If the people there decide that they want EK flights bad enough, things will change. But the thought that EK should be allowed to fly there as much as they like regardless of the will of Canadians (Air Canada included) because it is "fair" is laughable. The world (and business) does not work that way.

  

We Canadians have elected a government to make decisions on our behalf, usually if the government makes what many people feel is a bad decision there is a larger public response, in this case there hasn't been one. Canadians really have many more important issues to focus on. EK and the U.A.E. should just respect how we make our decisions and maybe try again for more frequencies when there is a new government in place.

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 13):
I bet the freezing weather which covers 200% of Canada is a nice welcome to tourists. Well, why go to Canada, where we can just open a freezer and see the ice. Very very exciting. The UAE is seeing a million British tourists a year and thousands of Europeans which make Dubai their new home. Would much rather live in a hot climate like Dubai (which I have) than to spend all my money for Wild Canadian Moose to keep me warm during winter.

That comment shows how little you know about Canada, currently it is January and when I look out my window in Halifax I don't see any ice or snow. I am glad however that there are 5 million people who do choose to visit Canada every year according to statics released by our government, many of whom visit us because of the many activities that our cold climate lets us enjoy.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 61):
You may think this is about protecting Air Canada, but in fact it is much more than that. Starting with, it is a BI-lateral agreement. Namely, what's in it for Canada? So far nothing, it is very much in favour if just the UAE. The Canadian government is protecting all airlines that have over the last 5 or so decades been flying to Canada, starting slowly and building traffic.

Some people say that the government is simply protecting Air Canada but I really agree that the government is really just protecting Canadian interests in general, its about what is good for the country as a whole.
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ojas
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Sun Jan 02, 2011 6:58 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 68):
Yes you did. And I will say again. Qatar was given 6 frequencies to use as they wish. (As too was EK btw). Qatar Airways chose 3 passenger and 3 cargo flights a week. They could have chosen 6 passenger flights a week, but that is not how they chose to use their allotment. As per Canada's bilateral policy, if they can prove a need for more, it will be considered.

This information is false.

Qatar was not to exceed 3 weekly passenger services as per the conditions laid down by Canada. You think the people at QR are idiots not to use 6 weekly pax frequencies? It would have been such a golden opportunity to surpass EK, EY!

Quoting longhauler (Reply 68):
Or is this just wishful thinking? I would imagine, if it were beneficial to both parties it will happen.

From what I know QR did put in a proposal, but given the skewed information I have, let us qualify it as a rumor. To put it simply, it did not work out.
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AirCanada787
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:00 pm

Quoting ojas (Reply 70):
Qatar was not to exceed 3 weekly passenger services as per the conditions laid down by Canada.

This is correct, according to the Qatar News Agency the agreement allows three passenger flights and three cargo flights per week.

Link: http://www.qnaol.net/QNAEn/Local_New...SignwithInitialsAgree28102010.aspx


Other information here: http://www.nationalpost.com/news/Can...rline+deal+take/3813233/story.html
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longhauler
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:15 pm

Quoting ojas (Reply 70):
Qatar was not to exceed 3 weekly passenger services as per the conditions laid down by Canada. You think the people at QR are idiots not to use 6 weekly pax frequencies? It would have been such a golden opportunity to surpass EK, EY!


The Toronto Globe and Mail reported that that was their choice, are you saying this is not true? I only repeat what I read. Like you, we were not there during negotiations. Reading the reports, I was under the impression that Qatar Airways saw value in using freight frequencies.

But, like every bilateral agreement Canada makes, if a need for more frequencies can be proved, it will be considered.

For the record ... EK too was given 6 frequencies a week. They wanted daily, pouted and said they would only do 3 a week, thereby "punishing" Canada. I am sure they sorely regret that tantrum now! EK was also offered daily YVR and daily YYC, which they also declined.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
ojas
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:44 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 72):
The Toronto Globe and Mail reported that that was their choice, are you saying this is not true? I only repeat what I read. Like you, we were not there during negotiations. Reading the reports, I was under the impression that Qatar Airways saw value in using freight frequencies.

I see.

But given my father was in one of the negotiating teams from Qatar, I'm absolutely confident of what I said. The negotiations were too intense and no one came to a conclusion during the first round hence another round of negotiations were conducted wherein they came to an agreement of 3 cargo + 3 pax.

As an aside does UAE have rights to fly cargo flights apart from what they have now?
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longhauler
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:17 am

Quoting ojas (Reply 73):
But given my father was in one of the negotiating teams from Qatar, I'm absolutely confident of what I said. The negotiations were too intense and no one came to a conclusion during the first round hence another round of negotiations were conducted wherein they came to an agreement of 3 cargo + 3 pax.


I find this fascinating, as the media reports indicate it was almost a "non-issue". Not "intense" at all. In Canada, it was a very quiet announcement.

That being the case though, do you feel Qatar Airways will be able to make a case for more frequencies between Canada and Qatar? Do you really feel there is a lot of traffic between the two countries? I am not talking "through" traffic, a la EK and EY, but O&D traffic between the two nations.
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:20 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 74):
Do you really feel there is a lot of traffic between the two countries?

Not at all. The traffic QR will take will go towards ATQ, GOI, CMB, DEL, LHE, ISB, KHI, PEW.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 74):
That being the case though, do you feel Qatar Airways will be able to make a case for more frequencies between Canada and Qatar?

They will definitely get daily flights to YYZ eventually, not an issue there. You have to take a deep look at all the agreements Canada and Qatar signed, and then it will convince people that QR can find a way to get daily access to YYZ. QR would want daily only, they won't ask for double daily to YYZ at all.
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:58 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 72):
But, like every bilateral agreement Canada makes, if a need for more frequencies can be proved, it will be considered.

AC fought for traffic rights to NRT and HKG for quite a few years but kept getting turned down. If memory correct, the HKG bilateral required that the market (CP and CX then the only direct operators) reached 300,000 passengers or similar a year (total in both directions) before a 2nd Canadian carrier could be designated. Once it passed that mark, AC was granted rights to HKG. Originally, the Japanese government was very reluctant to grant AC rights to Japan but AC was eventually granted rights to Osaka, leaving CP as the only Canadian carrier to NRT. Again, once the YVR-NRT market reached a certain size (probably similar to HKG), AC was also given rights to NRT.

Ironically, AC could have had those routes (and others, e.g. Australia) for decades but they had no interest in the Pacific at the time, resulting in the Pacific routes becoming CP's territory in 1949.
 
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:46 pm

Quoting ojas (Reply 75):
Not at all. The traffic QR will take will go towards ATQ, GOI, CMB, DEL, LHE, ISB, KHI, PEW.
Quoting ojas (Reply 75):
They will definitely get daily flights to YYZ eventually, not an issue there.


If that is the case, and Qatar publicly states that, then no, they likely will not get an increase in frequencies.

When making a case for an increase in frequencies, a few points have to be made. One is that there is a large increase in traffic between the two countries involved. As you state, there is not, and likely will not be a lot of traffic solely between Canada and Qatar.

Another point to be made, is that existing airlines flying existing routes are not adequately satisfying demand for the connection routes they propose. So Qatar Airways would have to prove that existing carriers are not satisfying the demand to the cities you state. That might be a hard one. With Air India, Jet Airways and PIA all flying into Toronto and providing service.
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:17 pm

Six weekly A380 (3 EK 3 EY) are enough for Canada-UAE, they should shut up or ship out.
 
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:26 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 77):
If that is the case, and Qatar publicly states that, then no, they likely will not get an increase in frequencies.

They have not stated that publicly, and QR will go daily to EK fiasco .... but in the next 18 months QR will get more flights to Quoting longhauler (Reply 77):
When making a case for an increase in frequencies, a few points have to be made.

As again we have been debating, I don't believe the "case" that airlines present holds much value and that it is all up to the whims and fancies of Canadian govt. (And I repeat I do not have a problem with that)

Quoting longhauler (Reply 77):
is that existing airlines flying existing routes are not adequately satisfying demand for the connection routes they propose.

With the Quantum of traffic flying between Canada and Pakistan, it doesn't require an Einstein's IQ to figure out that the options are inadequate including non stops by PIA. As of now only EK, EY provide one stop options to 4 cities in Pakistan and TK to one city. Great leaders don't tell you what to do ... they show you how it's done!
 
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:45 am

Even with PIA around it is inadequate. And adding to that ATQ, GOI, CMB too have inadequate one stop options.
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:11 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 72):
For the record ... EK too was given 6 frequencies a week. They wanted daily, pouted and said they would only do 3 a week, thereby "punishing" Canada. I am sure they sorely regret that tantrum now! EK was also offered daily YVR and daily YYC, which they also declined.

Not really - true, EK pouted and cried, then EY swept up and got 3 frequencies leaving EK with 3. This was before EK started commercial flights to Canada. But yes, either way EK lost out due mostly to bitching and moaning.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 77):
Another point to be made, is that existing airlines flying existing routes are not adequately satisfying demand for the connection routes they propose. So Qatar Airways would have to prove that existing carriers are not satisfying the demand to the cities you state. That might be a hard one. With Air India, Jet Airways and PIA all flying into Toronto and providing service.

Not really actually. This is why (and I'm saying this as an EK crew) I think QR has the best case here amongst the three big Gulf carriers - yes all are fighting for connecting traffic, but QR serves the most secondary destinations in the subcontinent that make their case for 6 weekly more valid than EK's. The big cities i.e. BOM/DEL are well covered. Sure Air India and PIA offer lackluster service and unrelilable connections to India and Pakistan, but QR tops them in that regard and can offer a superior connecting hub in Doha (and will soon be a great hub I'm sure once the new terminal is finished). QR has the flexibility to offer one stop connections to small destinations thanks largely to their narrowbody Airbus fleet.

That said, this case holds strong for cities like Toronto, but in my opinion much less so for the west coast cities such as Vancouver, where passengers have a plethora of options to connect through East Asia to the sub continent which is much faster than flying all the way to the Middle East then connecting.

What do you think?
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:01 pm

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 81):
Not really - true, EK pouted and cried, then EY swept up and got 3 frequencies leaving EK with 3. This was before EK started commercial flights to Canada. But yes, either way EK lost out due mostly to bitching and moaning.


Interesting ... I was not aware of this. I had always thought EK was first to Canada, with EY following.

But you are absolutely right, I see EY's first flight to YYZ was October 31/November 1, 2005, with EK following in October 2007. As i say, I bet EK sorely regrets that little tantrum.

And honestly, looking at the mood of Canada's government, I can't see any of EK, EY nor QR receiving more than 3 passenger flights a week any time soon!
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AirCanada787
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:40 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 82):
But you are absolutely right, I see EY's first flight to YYZ was October 31/November 1, 2005, with EK following in October 2007. As i say, I bet EK sorely regrets that little tantrum.

  

I was just going to post that information but you beat me too it. The EY's flight originally started out stopping in Brussels before continuing onto YYZ but started going nonstop in July of 2007 before EK started any service to YYZ.
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fly2yyz
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:56 am

Quoting ojas (Reply 79):
With the Quantum of traffic flying between Canada and Pakistan, it doesn't require an Einstein's IQ to figure out that the options are inadequate including non stops by PIA. As of now only EK, EY provide one stop options to 4 cities in Pakistan and TK to one city.

Are you seriously saying that?!

Then does it take someone with Einstein's IQ to realize that you may have demand, but do you need have those willing to pay a certain amount to ensure that a flight remains at a level of profitability? I mean there's gotta be a fine line between capacity dumping and profitability.
 
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RE: UAE Visa Fee-$1,000 For Canadians Due To Emira

Sat Jan 08, 2011 3:48 pm

Quoting Fly2yyz (Reply 84):
Then does it take someone with Einstein's IQ to realize that you may have demand, but do you need have those willing to pay a certain amount to ensure that a flight remains at a level of profitability? I mean there's gotta be a fine line between capacity dumping and profitability.

Excuse me?

According to the logic that Canada grants rights based on O-D numbers, I mentioned the above w.r.t Canada and Pakistan. Now do you mean to say that the Canadian govt. also wants to ensure airlines operating to Canada should be profitable?

Please font quote out of context.
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