My initial thought was that the passengers should be forced to pay the cost of the diversion, but considering the maturity level they displayed a more age-appropriate punishment would be making them stand in the corner for an hour and then send them to bed without dessert:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/cops-c...d-fliers-fight-over-205741388.html

That's crazy. I feel like they should have been arrested or something. I bet the airline probable needed to pay for hotels for the misconnects because of those idiots too.

I'm somewhat surprised we don't hear about this type of incident more often - I for one don't even try to work on my laptop during a flight because I find it to be an exercise in frustration, and if the person in front of me reclines, forget it. I've seen several close calls where, had the user not been paying attention, their laptop screen could have easily been shattered by someone reclining rapidly. I'm sure if that happens there's bound to be a scene.

Still, really no excuse for the behavior in this case.

Did this guy really need to use the Knee Defender in Economy Plus? If someone disabled the recline on my seat in an extra legroom zone, I'd be pretty miffed at his/her arrogance.

It's a tough issue, in a small space. I'll go ahead and say, leaving the behavior of the specific passengers aside, that I come down on the side of allowing a couple of inches recline, vs. preventing recline so that someone can use a laptop.

My reasoning is this: I myself have some spinal issues, including a neck problem that makes me have to recline an inch or so, depending on the contour of the individual seatback, to find the right spot to prevent the seat pushing my neck forward. Being unable to recline is physically painful, and once in a awhile if I accidentally end up in a no-recline seat, such as in front of an exit, I have to get up and walk around a lot.

When the choice is between someone being in pain due to not being allowed to recline even a little bit to find the right angle between passenger and headrest, or someone who insists on blocking that right and uses a non-airline device to disable the function of the seat button which I paid for so that they can use their seat as an office, or to play games or watch movies, I come down on the side of the person being put in physical pain, rather than upon the side of someone being inconvenienced.

I'm not talking about trying to dump my seatback back into the passenger's lap - I'm talking about a reasonable amount of adjustment that matches passenger to seat.

I definitely would not sit still and let a passenger behind me to use a "Knee Defender," if I had paid for a reclinable seat. By the way, I am not obnoxious about it, and never use the full range of recline. If the passenger using the Knee Defender can't deal with the small amount of recline currently offered, then maybe he/she should fly First Class.

The bottom line issue I have is that the seat-recline button is part of the airplane, which is being disabled by the Knee Defender without permission of the airline, while the Knee Defender is not a part of the airplane. Doesn't it really just come down to that?

I do sympathize with those whose thighs are so long that there's not enough room for them. This is not to absolve the airlines of their conscious choice not to provide adequate seat pitch. That's a greater issue.

[Edited 2014-08-25 16:47:28]

If UA doesn't allow it why did the pax refusing have any weight? Did the woman in front jump the gun tossing water in him?

Quoting CO953 (Reply 4): By the way, I am not obnoxious about it, and never use the full range of recline. If the passenger using the Knee Defender can't deal with the small amount of recline currently offered, then maybe he/she should fly First Class.

I think the issue is lack of common courtesy and obnoxiousness more than anything else. I've been on more than one TATL flight where the passenger in front of me reclined on boarding, was awake most or all of the flight and left the seat reclined when he left the airplane at our destination. There's no reason to have the seat all the way reclined during the meal service or at times when you are sitting up straight. That sort of behavior makes use of the knee defender understandable if not excusable.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 6): I think the issue is lack of common courtesy and obnoxiousness more than anything else. I've been on more than one TATL flight where the passenger in front of me reclined on boarding, was awake most or all of the flight and left the seat reclined when he left the airplane at our destination. There's no reason to have the seat all the way reclined during the meal service or at times when you are sitting up straight. That sort of behavior makes use of the knee defender understandable if not excusable.

I first heard about it in an episode of "This American Life"

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radi...s/episode/477/getting-away-with-it

Personally, I only recline if I am going to sleep, and only go all the way back if 1. The seat is empty or 2. It is a smaller person or child.

I'd have a problem with using one, though the cheapness of airline passengers is largely to blame for this. If people really want more space, and I mean more than just 3 inches for 70$ on UA, then it's time for real Y+ products in the US.

- The device seems to be forbidden on that airline, and the flight attendant asked him to remove it. Why didn't he obey that demand?
- I cannot imagine the plane was in real danger. Wasn't it disproportionate then to make an unscheduled landing to expel these persons?

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 8): - The device seems to be forbidden on that airline, and the flight attendant asked him to remove it. Why didn't he obey that demand?

If the FA gave an instruction it should have been followed... end of ..   

What kind of inconsiderate, self-entitled idiot would be so arrogant as to buy and "install" these "knee-defenders"? How dare they limit someone else his space when they payed for the very same seat that they are in themselves?

Mind you this comes from someone who's 1.90 meters, so if there's anyone that knows how much it sucks to have the pap in front of you recline its me. However I wouldn't even dream of installing these things, the very thought of being so incredibly selfish disgusts me!

Martijn

Can't believe this is really an issue in the US. The limited recline in Y class (maybe 3-4" on regional aircraft and 5-6" on Mainline aircraft at most!) is not a big deal, especially when you consider that the tray table is mounted to the seat base and will not change position when the seat back is reclined. This sounds like an arrogant a**hole that thinks he is better than everyone else versus a lady (term might be used loosely) with a short temper, just throw that cup of water!   

[Edited 2014-08-26 11:42:06]

Quoting OA260 (Reply 9): If the FA gave an instruction it should have been followed... end of ..

And if not? In this case someone could argue it was not a safety but more a courtesy issue. Does this have legal consequences?

I'm amazed that product is legal! So bloody obnoxious.... I've basically given up using my laptop, even in econ plus regardless of the seat in front of me. Rather sad these people were not fined - both of them.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 6): There's no reason to have the seat all the way reclined during the meal service or at times when you are sitting up straight. That sort of behavior makes use of the knee defender understandable if not excusable.

Counselor, I was expecting another response from you. Is not the reclining passanger just exercising his purchased right of recline? How long, and to the extent, he uses that right is up to him. No? It would appear that relief would be up to the airline.  

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 14): Is not the reclining passanger just exercising his purchased right of recline?

Sure he is, but he seems to be getting no benefit from it. Note that I didn't (and won't) criticize somebody who sleeps reclined from takeoff to touchdown.

Quoting CO953 (Reply 4): When the choice is between someone being in pain due to not being allowed to recline even a little bit to find the right angle between passenger and headrest, or someone who insists on blocking that right and uses a non-airline device to disable the function of the seat button which I paid for so that they can use their seat as an office, or to play games or watch movies, I come down on the side of the person being put in physical pain, rather than upon the side of someone being inconvenienced.

Quoting CO953 (Reply 4): I definitely would not sit still and let a passenger behind me to use a "Knee Defender," if I had paid for a reclinable seat. By the way, I am not obnoxious about it, and never use the full range of recline. If the passenger using the Knee Defender can't deal with the small amount of recline currently offered, then maybe he/she should fly First Class.

Your arguments could easily be turned the opposite way.

if the passenger behind you has paid for a seat including a tray table, why should you be allowed to recline and remove some of that space? If you can't deal with that person's need to use his whole tray table, maybe you should fly first class?

The article says the passengers were seated in Economy Plus. It's a sad state of affairs when even in Y+ we get so little leg room that you have to defend it.

Regardless of who's right, was it wise of the airline to divert? Unless the flight or passengers were placed in harms way (and I'm sorry - one irate passenger throwing a glass of water at another does not qualify as such), it seems an exorbitant waste of time, fuel and company resources to delay a flight over something like this.

Couldn't they have moved one of the two passengers to a different seat instead, and then have dealt with any legalistic issues when they landed?

Not quite the same thing, but I've had passengers in front of me who were reclining during the meal service on international flights and the flight attendant has invariably requested that they move their seat back upright until the trays are collected.

In my many many years of flying never has a passenger refused to do so.

I generally agree with and appreciate the logic in Cubsrule 'a contribution to this site. But here we shall disagree.

Maybe I can offer a bit of insight here.

I'm 16 years and 6'4" (1.93 meters) and have never flown in J, F or Y+, only Y. So I fully understand the plight of people who complain about having little legroom. But even I can see how horrible it is to inconvenience someone else who may already hate flying as it is for a tad more comfort. And he's flying in economy plus!?! No excuse! You have no reason whatsoever to do that to somebody else who paid for the same ticket, the same seat and same service as you did.

And as for the woman, shouldn't take much explaining to say that she was in the wrong. If she had stayed civilized about it, she may have been able to stay on the plane and maybe the flight wouldn't have diverted.

Quoting AT (Reply 18): The article says the passengers were seated in Economy Plus. It's a sad state of affairs when even in Y+ we get so little leg room that you have to defend it.

I don't think leg room was the problem. It sounded like he was using the Knee Defender so he could work on his laptop.

And this is why I am glad when I sit down in row 1-3 and don't have to deal with any of this nonsense. The tray table is located in the arm rest and neatly folds out over my lap so I can pull out my IdeaPad and become productive.

Just another reason I always buy revenue First Class. The benefits have saved me a ton of relief: not having to wait in Y class lines that stretch out the doors of the terminal onto the curb and into the parking garage, free food, free drinks, good legroom....the benefits far outweigh the $200-$600 above the Y-class fare.

-LPDAL

I'm trying to think of another retail product which compares with the Knee Defender in its respective application. It has to be useful only in situations where there is an expectation of common courtesy, yet must resolutely and vainly trump that courtesy. It must inconvenience various other people in order to convenience the user. Finally, it must sing out to the potential purchaser as they traipse past : "Use to me to inflate your self-importance and/or invoke schadenfreude!"

Quoting AT (Reply 18): it seems an exorbitant waste of time, fuel and company resources to delay a flight over something like this

Agreed. Split em up and get buddy to ditch the Knee Defenders. Comp him a whisky if he kvetches.

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 23): Just another reason I always buy revenue First Class

Yes, well us mere mortals down here on Earth beg to remind you that deep pockets or sympathetic travel departments are not blessings we all share.

One problem with these 'knee defender' devices is that they could lead to breaking the seat/tray table mechanism which means they could be unusable for a flight or 2 causing revenues loss. They could also put improper stress on the seat in an emergency situation (like severe turbulence) and cause injuries .
Most likely they should be banned and any use of them will mean a financial penalty or a minor criminal one.

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 23): And this is why I am glad when I sit down in row 1-3 and don't have to deal with any of this nonsense. The tray table is located in the arm rest and neatly folds out over my lap so I can pull out my IdeaPad and become productive. Just another reason I always buy revenue First Class.

  


Well, aren't you blessed. Spare a penny for those of us who work in academia and can't afford first class?

On, what I'm sure is a completely coincidential note, the website for the Knee Defender is running extraordinarily slow.

Quoting LOWS (Reply 26):

Quoting rampbro (Reply 24):

"Mere Mortals" can afford domestic first class. For example, Delta has FLL-ATL-BOS-ATL-FLL in F for $400. That's extremely cheap in this industry, and it isn't a mistake fare either. You can also use your status, buy up, or opup to F instead of paying for it. I think that is reasonable. As I said I'll never have these issues due to reasons stated above. Every time I've been up front, it's all status flyers and/or business travelers, who are all sleeping or quietly working.
 

-LPDAL

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 27): "Mere Mortals" can afford domestic first class. For example, Delta has FLL-ATL-BOS-ATL-FLL in F for $400. That's extremely cheap in this industry, and it isn't a mistake fare either. You can also use your status, buy up, or opup to F instead of paying for it. I think that is reasonable. As I said I'll never have these issues due to reasons stated above. Every time I've been up front, it's all status flyers and/or business travelers, who are all sleeping or quietly working.

I am going to KBP on Friday. I was asked to go last Thursday:

SZG-VIE-KBP
Business Basic: 1295€ (1700$)
Economy Basic: 547,93€ (722,86$)

And that's for European, nothing special business.

[Edited 2014-08-27 04:09:42]

[Edited 2014-08-27 04:10:31]

Quoting LOWS (Reply 28):

I'm talking about American domestic first. Of course, things are generally more expensive in Europe.
BTW I don't consider myself "above" anyone. I was simply stating why I buy what I choose to buy. I have flown several times in Y some years ago, but no longer.

-LPDAL  

I don't blame the woman who threw the water. It's short temper and better not done, but the guy who used this monstruous object just started it, and unfortunately she probably could not take this for some reason.

I also believe United would not have done anything had she not reacted so in many ways she did her best to defend herself.

I put 90% of the blame on the kneedefender guy.

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 29): I was simply stating why I buy what I choose to buy.

True. But embedded in the word choice is the fact that you can afford to choose. For a majority of the flying public, flying in First, whether it's through a paid ticket, award ticket, or through business, is simply not an option.


What I still don't understand is why they didn't just separate the two passengers rather than divert to Chicago.

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 12): And if not? In this case someone could argue it was not a safety but more a courtesy issue. Does this have legal consequences?

UA can take civil action against the passengers for the cost of the diversion.

Quoting curiousflyer (Reply 30):

She committed assault. That's okay because someone was a dick to her?

And "monstrous device?" puh-lease. It's a piece of plastic that stops a seat from moving, not a nail bomb. Such exaggerations only weaken an argument.

When a seat is purchased one expects a certain amount of space to go with it. But what is the dimension of this space. Is it vertical in front of you, or more diagonal? Who "owns" what space? The front seat passenger or the one in the rear?

Who is willing to give up their space? If row 1 reclines and 2 reclines because his space was taken by 1, then 3 reclines...
Who is the passenger who just accepts his minimizes space? Is it fair?

I also see a potential problem of using a "non-approved" (FAA) device. Is the user willing and prepared to accept any potential liability? I'm not that familiar with the product, but from the pictures in their website, it appears it could cause a problem in placing the tray back in the "up" position. This would cause a potential evacuation problem for seatmates.

One solution lies with the airline, but that ain't agonna happen!!!

I think this is just the beginning of these kinds of problems. I saw a news clip today saying the company that makes the Knee Defender can't keep their website up because of all the orders this story has generated for them!

The story told by ABC news said that this story is about laptop usage. The guy with the knee defenders was trying to use his laptop on his tray table. Since the space is so tight, when the woman reclined her seat, he couldn't keep the laptop screen open 90 degrees. So he put on the knee defender to prevent her from reclining. That's when the trouble started.

I'm all for airlines who have non-reclining seats. It always annoys me when someone in front reclines all the way back on a short-ish flight , just to lay there and watch a movie, then not even put the seat up when food is served! Increasing your own space while decreasing the person behind's? Doesn't wash well with me, though I know they are obviously "fully entitled to do so".

I feel that it's different on very long and/or night flights.

Still, I'd never buy a knee defender as I'd hate for this sort of embarrassing conflict to happen!

Quoting Opethfan (Reply 33):

I know she commited assault. Still I don't blame her. It is too easy to commit a crime (tampering with aircraft equipment) and expect to go unscathed because the airline has no balls. At least she made the issue a public matter. Now as far as I am concerned, I would have drunk my water and claimed for compensation. And if it happens to me I will take pictures and request that the police be waiting on arrival.

As for "monstruous"... Well yes I think he is the kind of jerk I would never want to deal with. Not in a democracy where you pay billions in taxes for laws to be enforced.

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 12): And if not? In this case someone could argue it was not a safety but more a courtesy issue

That person should have done as the crew said. Noted their name and written into the airline after the flight for clarification or to make their complaint.

Blergh... yet another company that expects some poor sod to work on a flight, but doesn't pay for a seat where he can actually do so.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 35): I think this is just the beginning of these kinds of problems. I saw a news clip today saying the company that makes the Knee Defender can't keep their website up because of all the orders this story has generated for them!

I guess I'll just have to start reclining right after takeoff to make sure that the person behind me doesn't have time to put the thing on, just in case I want to recline later in the flight.

Quoting Vasu (Reply 36): It always annoys me when someone in front reclines all the way back on a short-ish flight , just to lay there and watch a movie, then not even put the seat up when food is served!

The presence of these devices isn't exactly going to encourage people to put their seat up when food is served, as that would be a perfect time for the person in back of them to put the device on, and then after the meal their seat is stuck.

Quoting Vasu (Reply 36): Increasing your own space while decreasing the person behind's?

The person behind can always recline as well.

-Mir

In a post here quite a while ago someone mentioned that F/A's are trained to look for those knee defenders in use and if they see anyone using one they are supposed to make the passenger take it off and they are reminded of the airlines policy about such devices. Any F/A here heard about this from their airlines?

Interesting AP coverage of the Knee Defender user's side of things.
http://www.sfgate.com/news/us/articl...t-airline-seat-dispute-5731107.php

Seems to me that taller people (6'1 and over) don't gain as much comfort by reclining as shorter people. Using a 13" laptop on the tray table is tough, even in domestic first, when someone reclines.

The guy looks like he should be on that television show "Shark Tank". So he thinks it's rude to recline your seat, heh? Hell if you want more room pay for F buddy. And he states that he will continue to use his knee defender even though he knows that its use is against most airlines policy. If your work is so important that you can't get away from it for a couple of hours than you need to be taking a private jet rather than an airliner.

Cry me a river, little boy. You come across as a spoiled little brat that just had one of his toys taken away.

Quoting Vasu (Reply 36): It always annoys me when someone in front reclines all the way back on a short-ish flight

Good Lord....you make it sound like the person sitting in front of you is landing in your lap!

Quoting JHwk (Reply 42): Using a 13" laptop on the tray table is tough, even in domestic first, when someone reclines.

Strange, these biz flyers thing its their RIGHT to use their laptops during flight.

The only time I will not recline my seat during a flight is when there is a meal served. Then I put my seat in the up right position until meal service is over and trays are cleared. Then I recline my seat, with out asking, and enjoy the rest of the flight.

The pissing contest continues.

"I have a RIGHT to recline" "I have a RIGHT to my space without someone pushing themselves into my knees or my drink into my lap"

Quite frankly, everyone has a right to shut up. This is proving to be a problem, and when I was a kid my mom told me that if we can't agree to share, no one has it (a toy, a treat, etc) at all. So let's yank it out and then there isn't a problem any more.