User avatar
LAX772LR
Topic Author
Posts: 12855
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Mon May 25, 2015 7:20 pm

It's been discussed in various places before, but IINM, we've never had a direct post on the issue.

AAdvantage is apparently the last of the US3's FFPs that grant a spendable mile per mile flown.



The general consensus around here and FlyerTalk has long-since seemed to be "They'll put an end to that, as soon as the merger begins/SOC happens!"

......well, both have occurred. So what now?

Have they given any indication that they're seeing churn from other carriers, in their favor? Or, as expected, is it still just a matter of time before the hammer comes down on the good times at AAdvantage?

What say you?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Okcflyer
Posts: 588
Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 11:10 pm

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Mon May 25, 2015 7:28 pm

I think there is far too much hysteria over the mileage program changes.

If you have to silver status or above, the new mileage rule for United / MileagePlus comes out about the same as before or better. Even on long haul flights. If you're gold or higher and have the better multiplier, it's in your favor especially if you spring for late minute higher fares or up front seats, it works out better.

I was concerned about the change as well but after booking a couple of flights this weekend, I have changed my tune to realize the changes are beneficial.
 
avek00
Posts: 3228
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:56 am

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Mon May 25, 2015 7:42 pm

American's leadership team has already made statements indicate the airline plans to "innovate" once the customer-facing integration of US wraps up later this year.
Live life to the fullest.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Topic Author
Posts: 12855
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Mon May 25, 2015 7:48 pm

Quoting OKCFlyer (Reply 1):
I have changed my tune to realize the changes are beneficial.

For you perhaps. For others (like me) they've been a disaster.

I fly a good bit, but always out of pocket, so I'm not just spending someone else's money and looking around at others thinking "What's the problem??" (Not to say that you, specifically, are doing that; but it's not an uncommonly encountered sentiment)

As stated in another thread, I've flown DL to the point of exclusion since 1987, before SkyMiles itself.

I'd always pay more within my means (often to the tune of several hundred dollars) if it meant being able to fly DL, sometimes F, sometimes Y, but always DL. Abject loyalty.

Then they *SCREWED ME OVER*. Big time.
How badly? See for yourself:



....same route, nearly same price, different date.

So yeah, "beneficial." Right.   
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
FWAERJ
Posts: 2762
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:23 am

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Mon May 25, 2015 8:11 pm

Consumer Reports recently did a report on FFPs, and noticed that AAdvantage was the last major carrier program to award by miles flown. CR asked AA if they planned to keep it that way or if they plan to switch to a revenue-based system. And AA wouldn't comment on that part.

So I take the "no comment" as in that AA plans on doing something big with the 2016 AAdvantage program, but can't confirm it until SHARES is gone from L-US and everything is on Sabre.
B721/722/731/732/733/735/73G/738/739/742/752/753/762/763, A300/319/320, DC-9/10, MD-82/83/88/90, ERJ-140/145, CRJ-200/700, Q200, SF340, AS350
 
tomcbaker
Posts: 260
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:01 am

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Mon May 25, 2015 8:14 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 3):
Then they *SCREWED ME OVER*. Big time.

I feel for you and I agree with everything you said. I just recently experienced a similar thing happen to me with AS, and I would definitely call it "getting screwed". My story: I booked a r/t out of pocket ticket on BA for YVR-LHR-JNB for a few weeks back, literally a week after AS changed their elite qualifying mileage for BA/KL/AF. I bought the ticket last fall when AS was still awarding 100% elite qualifying miles for BA on all fare classes. The week before my BA trip last month, AS changed it for my fare class from 100% to 25%, and didn't grandfather me in even though I purchased the BA ticket under the assumption I'd be getting 100% AS miles. Over 20,000 elite qualifying miles at stake, reduced to ~5,000 miles overnight with no advanced warning from AS. That's the definition of getting screwed.

I don't know how much longer AA will hold on, particularly with awarding 100% elite qualifying miles for all BA fare classes given that BA has shafted even its own mileage plan members in the last year on this. However, until AA does conform, I've switched from AS (where I've been either an MVP Gold or MVP Gold 75K every year for the last decade) to AA so I can ride it out for as long as possible given how much I fly overseas on foreign airlines, especially BA.
Tom
 
Okcflyer
Posts: 588
Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 11:10 pm

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Mon May 25, 2015 8:52 pm

Sorry to hear of your experience with Delta. I should have prefaced my statement with "Per my experience with United." I only fly Delta once or twice a year so I cannot reasonably comment on them.

Here is one example where United's new system helps me. This is a quick spin to Houston, 395 miles each way. Economy ticket, H-class fare.



I figured the new system would burn economy class travelers on long-haul tickets. I was surprised to find out my ticket to DXB later this year returns just under 20,000 miles for a $1700 ticket. This is about the same as it was before. Same thing for East Asia flights.

For European flying, the new system helps out even more as the fares tend to be higher, especially relative to the miles flown. This is fairly irrelevant to me as I've only flown to Europe once.

It's an even bigger benefit for South American flying. My personal dollars carry me to northern SA several times a year. Those tickets tend to pricey for the distance traveled (>$1000 for 4-5 hour flight).

I don't travel across the USA much so maybe i'm missing the "gotcha" part of the new system.

I suppose it's a simple function of life; There are always Winners just as there are always Losers. It's a bummer your particular situation took such a hit.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17869
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Mon May 25, 2015 8:58 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Thread starter):
How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?  

Til cutover

Quoting avek00 (Reply 2):
American's leadership team has already made statements indicate the airline plans to "innovate" once the customer-facing integration of US wraps up later this year.

  
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
steex
Posts: 1436
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:45 am

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Mon May 25, 2015 9:11 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 3):
I'd always pay more within my means (often to the tune of several hundred dollars) if it meant being able to fly DL, sometimes F, sometimes Y, but always DL. Abject loyalty.

Then they *SCREWED ME OVER*. Big time.
How badly? See for yourself:

To each his own, but I disagree that people are getting screwed. I'm in a similar position, having scraped by near the bottom of the silver ranks at Delta for years, largely accumulating miles on inexpensive tickets. The program changes are certainly not beneficial to me, and I definitely earn fewer miles on my tickets than I did in previous years. That's not the same as getting screwed.

The reality is that redeemable miles being tied to distance rather than spend never made a lick of sense, and now the more sensible option is finally being pursued by the airlines. Businesses change models all the time, it's a bit melodramatic that people cling to the entitlement of previous benefits rather than accepting the reality of a business relationship.

A round-trip LAX-MSY trip resulting in 920 redeemable miles means the most that could possibly have been paid in base fare is $184 (plus taxes and fees, of course) - and that could be less if the person purchasing has status. The time has come for travelers to whom loyalty doesn't make sense (and that is a judgment call up to each person) to simply accept good fares for what they are.

[Edited 2015-05-25 14:12:25]
 
avek00
Posts: 3228
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:56 am

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Mon May 25, 2015 9:25 pm

Quoting steex (Reply 8):
The reality is that redeemable miles being tied to distance rather than spend never made a lick of sense,

Actually, it did make quite a bit of sense back when airfares paid (in general) more closely followed distance flown and costs incurred.
Live life to the fullest.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Topic Author
Posts: 12855
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Mon May 25, 2015 9:37 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):
Til cutover

I thought it already happened?


Quoting OKCFlyer (Reply 6):
I don't travel across the USA much so maybe i'm missing the "gotcha" part of the new system.

      

Other than those who can purchase 4 and 5 digit fares on a whim, the ones making out like bandits on this: are those who fly Y in very-shorthaul.... because they most they would've gotten back in the day is 500mi, and yet now they can get many times that, through no real change in spend on their part.


Quoting steex (Reply 8):
The program changes are certainly not beneficial to me, and I definitely earn fewer miles on my tickets than I did in previous years. That's not the same as getting screwed.

Guess we'll just have to fundamentally agree to disagree.


Quoting steex (Reply 8):
The reality is that redeemable miles being tied to distance rather than spend never made a lick of sense

Neither did leaving it in place for more than 30yrs, such that it became a standard of the industry in the USA, if so.


Quoting steex (Reply 8):
it's a bit melodramatic that people cling to the entitlement of previous benefits

Because God forbid you expect your money to go as far as it did 5 months ago.  


Quoting steex (Reply 8):
the most that could possibly have been paid in base fare is $184 (plus taxes and fees, of course)

Yeah, I wish. You're off by about a factor of three... which BTW, is why I'm ~STILL~ waiting for them to get back to me (a month later) as to why I received so few miles; because using their own calculations, it makes no sense.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
FWAERJ
Posts: 2762
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:23 am

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Mon May 25, 2015 9:48 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 10):
I thought it already happened?

Cutover starts in July and will take three months to migrate older L-US reservations from SHARES to Sabre. New L-US reservations are currently issued numbers in both Sabre and SHARES until the cutover starts. After the cutover starts, all reservations will be placed in Sabre only, and usairways.com will refer you to AA.com to book a L-US ticket.
B721/722/731/732/733/735/73G/738/739/742/752/753/762/763, A300/319/320, DC-9/10, MD-82/83/88/90, ERJ-140/145, CRJ-200/700, Q200, SF340, AS350
 
MAH4546
Posts: 25995
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Mon May 25, 2015 9:51 pm

American is slyly starting to promote its rewards program on the basis that it awards on mileage flown and using that as a selling point, but it's smartly not hammering that in like Southwest and free bags. If AA sees that staying mileage based drives significant premium traffic and revenue over to its airline, it will stay mileage based. If it doesn't, it won't. Simple as that.
a.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15587
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Mon May 25, 2015 10:03 pm

Quoting steex (Reply 8):
Businesses change models all the time, it's a bit melodramatic that people cling to the entitlement of previous benefits rather than accepting the reality of a business relationship.

  

This.

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 10):
Because God forbid you expect your money to go as far as it did 5 months ago.

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps 5 months ago your money/miles were going further than they realistically should have?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
UA1K3MM
Posts: 52
Joined: Fri May 17, 2013 5:10 pm

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Mon May 25, 2015 10:28 pm

Quoting OKCFlyer (Reply 1):

"If you have silver status or above, the new mileage rule for United / MileagePlus comes out about the same as before or better. Even on long haul flights. If you're gold or higher and have the better multiplier, it's in your favor especially if you spring for late minute higher fares or up front seats, it works out better."

OKCFlyer -- You make a big assumption when you make this statement that the fare is being purchased last minute using a higher fare class. Otherwise, even with the 1K multiplier of fare X 11 you are not even coming close to the old MP mileage earnings. I have been 1K for over 25 continuous years working for a faith-based nonprofit global organization. I know my schedule and can normally book my reservations at least 6 to 8 weeks in advance of my travels, so I'm normally booking in the lower economy fare buckets. My earnings since the MP change in March has been averaging 45 - 60% of my previous mileage earnings.

I agree with LAX772LR, my experience with UA MP is about the same as his with DL SkyMiles. If you can travel in the higher fare buckets or J Class you can "win" or at least equal your previous earnings. Otherwise, the earnings are not comparable to the old system even at the highest elite levels.   
 
User avatar
northwestEWR
Posts: 1974
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:45 pm

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Mon May 25, 2015 10:36 pm

AA will have no choice but to follow WN, UA and DL.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 13):

Quoting steex (Reply 8):
Businesses change models all the time, it's a bit melodramatic that people cling to the entitlement of previous benefits rather than accepting the reality of a business relationship.

  

This.

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 10):
Because God forbid you expect your money to go as far as it did 5 months ago.

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps 5 months ago your money/miles were going further than they realistically should have?

  
Delta and United are interested in rewarding their very best customers--if that means less Silver elites--so be it. They're after the folks who spend an enormous amount of money on the airline--not those that will leave because they're perceived "value" of miles is being adjusted.
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
steex
Posts: 1436
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:45 am

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Mon May 25, 2015 10:45 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 10):
Neither did leaving it in place for more than 30yrs, such that it became a standard of the industry in the USA, if so.

Sure - but if I select a random stranger and give that same person $5 every day for absolutely no reason, then stop 30 years later, am I screwing him at that point? He's better served to be glad for the $50,000+ I've given him rather than hold firm on the notion that I should still owe him the daily $5 I used to give.

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 10):
Because God forbid you expect your money to go as far as it did 5 months ago.

It's hard to make that contention when airfare on a given city pair can fluctuate hundreds of dollars in a matter of days. Even outside the airline industry, there are countless ways in which our money loses purchasing power over as little as five months. Just because we all got used to something doesn't mean we're entitled to it, and therefore being mistreated when it is changed.

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 10):
Yeah, I wish. You're off by about a factor of three... which BTW, is why I'm ~STILL~ waiting for them to get back to me (a month later) as to why I received so few miles; because using their own calculations, it makes no sense.

If they've misposted your redeemable miles, that's a different story - of course, then the comparison shouldn't be 5,014 to 920. In that case, you're being screwed because you're not getting what you're currently entitled to and potentially receiving poor customer service in the process, not because you're not getting the same number of miles as you would have in 2014. However, 920 miles does equate to a base fare (or base fare plus qualifying additional purchases) of $184 exclusive of taxes and fees for a standard SkyMiles member.
 
tomcbaker
Posts: 260
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:01 am

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Mon May 25, 2015 10:47 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 15):
Delta and United are interested in rewarding their very best customers--if that means less Silver elites--so be it. They're after the folks who spend an enormous amount of money on the airline--not those that will leave because they're perceived "value" of miles is being adjusted.

I'm one of those people who will leave because my "perceived 'value' of miles is being adjusted". And it's too bad, because it was great while it lasted. 99 out of 100 times, I paid extra to fly on the airlines I was loyal to, even when there were significantly cheaper options from competitors stateside and overseas (especially from rapidly expanding Asian carriers from China et al., and LCC's). I might not be one of AS or DL or UA's highest paying customers but their old mileage programs did achieve the goal of keeping me loyal to them even if it meant more money out of my pocket to fly them instead of the cheaper option. That loyalty is gone now and I'll fly on Hainan instead of Delta out of SEA, for example. It is what it is.
Tom
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 2166
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Tue May 26, 2015 12:39 am

As others have said, it won't happen until their under one res system. No sense duplicating all the work for a system that's getting mothballed anyway. This time also gives AA a chance to evaluate how the changes at DL/UA have affected them.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 12):
If AA sees that staying mileage based drives significant premium traffic and revenue over to its airline, it will stay mileage based.

True, but reading here and FT, Low Spend elites (LSE) are flocking to AA (where they can still obtain status with minimal spend). I suspect if AA runs this way too long, non fortress hub HSEs will move away from AA to carriers where they're not fighting for upgrades with all the additional LSE refugees.

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 15):
Delta and United are interested in rewarding their very best customers--if that means less Silver elites--so be it. They're after the folks who spend an enormous amount of money on the airline--not those that will leave because they're perceived "value" of miles is being adjusted.

This. But with all the ancillary fees these days (bags, first class monetization, seats, wifi, food, etc.), I suspect these days many domestic pax with no status bring in more revenue (per seat mile) than an elite... In this case the FF program becomes the enticement to choose X over Y.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
User avatar
northwestEWR
Posts: 1974
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:45 pm

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Tue May 26, 2015 12:48 am

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 18):
This. But with all the ancillary fees these days (bags, first class monetization, seats, wifi, food, etc.), I suspect these days many domestic pax with no status bring in more revenue (per seat mile) than an elite... In this case the FF program becomes the enticement to choose X over Y.

I doubt that. Purchased in advance, I can fly a Tuesday AM ATL-LAX oneway for $224. Add in a bag (25) and a Comfort+ seat (89), call it half the Wifi charge since Gogo gets most of it (10) and a "meal" (8). Total: $356

When a Diamond Medallion has an emergency meeting tomorrow (Tuesday AM flight required) and they book tonight, it's $794. Over double the money for the same flight--the Elite is FAR more valuable.

However! Someone will argue that now I can't sell that Elite's Y+ seat. Okay. Subtract $89 from $794. He's still far more valuable.

Trust me--the High Value clients are called that for a reason.
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
peanuts
Posts: 980
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:17 am

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Tue May 26, 2015 1:54 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 3):

Do what I did. Take the chains off. I went from 80% Delta to now just 20% over the last year. Works like a charm. I fly way more nonstops as well.
It's just not worth it, the silly FF dance.
 
MKIAZ
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 5:24 am

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Tue May 26, 2015 5:15 am

I'd guess this will drive the people from DL/UA who were booking cheap fares and are now getting screwed to AA. It might help AA a bit in that they can increase their Y fares. I could see them keeping it around a couple more years or changing it. They are often the last to act (like the million miler for non-flown miles).

Ultimately though it's inevitable. It's not worth it to have elite customers paying rock bottom prices and avoiding ancillary fees. And if those customers decide to leave or fly less in protest, it doesn't matter much since they weren't very profitable in the first place.

I'm more concerned about how the mileage chart will look once the next round of devaluation comes out (I'm guessing later this year). With the surcharges and routing rules and oneworld's somewhat more limited rout network (compared to *A) it could be worse than UA.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17869
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Tue May 26, 2015 6:33 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 10):
I thought it already happened?

Res cutover? Hasn't happened yet; earliest I've seen mentioned so far was July
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Topic Author
Posts: 12855
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Tue May 26, 2015 7:00 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 13):
Did it ever occur to you that perhaps 5 months ago your money/miles were going further than they realistically should have?

Did it ever occur to you that "should" is a completely subjective concept?

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 12):
American is slyly starting to promote its rewards program on the basis that it awards on mileage flown and using that as a selling poin

   Friends in FLL/MIA have been goading me with it since they've noticed it, hence the consideration for switching to AA.

Quoting steex (Reply 16):
but if I select a random stranger and give that same person $5 every day for absolutely no reason, then stop 30 years later, am I screwing him at that point?

You seem to be forgetting the not-so-minor little detail of "in exchange for service rendered" in that patronizingly simplistic allegory

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 17):
I might not be one of AS or DL or UA's highest paying customers but their old mileage programs did achieve the goal of keeping me loyal to them even if it meant more money out of my pocket to fly them instead of the cheaper option.

Same for me. But at the end of the day, we just got told that that means nothing to them.
Don't care what the corporate apologists here say: that's a slap in the face, no matter how one slices it.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 20):
Do what I did. Take the chains off.

Well, I'm not far from Million-Miler, so it's difficult to change now.
Especially if AA does indeed completely follow suit.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Travelmanager
Posts: 136
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:05 pm

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Tue May 26, 2015 7:05 am

What I find to be the greatest threat to loyalty isn't the rate that the miles are earned, as I agree that it does make sense to base it on the fare paid, but rather the inflation of miles needed for redemption. Seeing a typical Delta award for Business class to Europe go from 100K to 240K undermines the idea that they are chasing after the top flyers if they don't allow them to redeem those miles at a constant rate. We have seen a lote of FFs on Delta start to dump miles feeling that they will become even less valuable shortly
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17869
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Tue May 26, 2015 7:11 am

Does anyone know what percentage of elites remain elites after DL/UA switch from mileage to mileage + spending? I would think it thins the ranks pretty quickly, which would mean more upgrades, lounge access, and perks for the remaining elites...
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Topic Author
Posts: 12855
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Tue May 26, 2015 7:20 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 25):
Does anyone know what percentage of elites remain elites after DL/UA switch from mileage to mileage + spending?

Here's the thing though, Elite acquisition is still tied to miles flown. The changes aren't nearly as dramatic there.

I'll probably make FO this year on DL, just from trips to GIG + TYO... but I won't have jack-all to spend from it. Not that their (hidden!) award levels are realistically attainable anyway!   
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
UALWN
Posts: 2186
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:27 pm

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Tue May 26, 2015 7:32 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 3):
For you perhaps. For others (like me) they've been a disaster.

It's been a disaster for me too, as a UA Premier Gold who flies almost exclusively internationally and tries to buy tickets well in advance. So much so, that on June 16th I'll take the AA challenge and become Diamond in AA throughout 2016, although I fear the good times won't last there either.

[Edited 2015-05-26 00:33:24]
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/350/380
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17869
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Tue May 26, 2015 7:41 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 26):
Here's the thing though, Elite acquisition is still tied to miles flown.

It's far more restrictive on where and how you can earn the corresponding dollar spend. At least on UA you pretty much have to be on UA or UA* to earn those dollars, which means even roundtrip monthly trips in F on LH earns you $0. Skyteam is on my no fly list but it seems like they're a little more lenient as to which carriers you can fly and earn miles *and* dollars, as long as it's not KE or AS  
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Topic Author
Posts: 12855
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Tue May 26, 2015 8:03 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 28):
Skyteam is on my no fly list but it seems like they're a little more lenient as to which carriers you can fly and earn miles *and* dollars, as long as it's not KE or AS

AS isn't in SkyTeam, but yeah, that's pretty much the size of it.

I would NEVER step foot on KE (or OZ), so that's no real issue.

The overwhelming majority of my flights are on DL metal, with some AF/KE beyond Europe, but not all that much. So no real effect there.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
User avatar
BNE
Posts: 2925
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2000 9:37 pm

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Tue May 26, 2015 8:45 am

This isn't Flyertalk   but anyway.
Qantas has changed their frequent flyer program to reward those that spend more money, they just use the term simpler and fairer, I wouldn't say its simpler or fairer unless you are flying on Qantas on the more expensive tickets.

I can't see AA changing the mileage when you fly on AA aircraft but I am sure that once the AA/US become one reservation system you will get penalized for flying other airlines like most airlines now do, so much for those alliances.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 27):

It's been a disaster for me too, as a UA Premier Gold who flies almost exclusively internationally and tries to buy tickets well in advance. So much so, that on June 16th I'll take the AA challenge and become Diamond in AA throughout 2016, although I fear the good times won't last there either.

AA has different names for their top tiers, AA uses Gold, Platinum and Executive Platinum, something new to get use to.  
Why fly non stop when you can connect
 
HPRamper
Posts: 4992
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Tue May 26, 2015 8:57 am

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 12):
American is slyly starting to promote its rewards program on the basis that it awards on mileage flown and using that as a selling point, but it's smartly not hammering that in like Southwest and free bags. If AA sees that staying mileage based drives significant premium traffic and revenue over to its airline, it will stay mileage based. If it doesn't, it won't. Simple as that.

I was sort of wondering about that. That would have to be a big advantage to hold on to. Question is if the benefits would outweigh...well, not anything negative, but would they feel they are leaving money on the table? Seems to me AA is doing quite well at the moment with so many people bolting the FF programs of other airlines.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 20):
Do what I did. Take the chains off. I went from 80% Delta to now just 20% over the last year. Works like a charm. I fly way more nonstops as well.
It's just not worth it, the silly FF dance.

For a MM it might not be worth it, but for the casual or semi-casual traveler that's almost certainly the way to go. It's nice to have multiple awards showing up from multiple airlines and having your pick of the litter.
 
Archer
Posts: 93
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 7:07 am

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Tue May 26, 2015 11:23 am

I'm ;not sure if quite relevant, but in late December we flew Qantas from Honolulu to Sydney.
It is a 5,000 mile flight but Qantas (can't remember their code) gave us only 2,500 for the
trip. Returning the same route on subsidary JetStar - the same 5,000 miles - we received NO MILES!

I'm Gold on US. My wife is Silver.

They said to contact Qantas. I did. They said JetStar is not part of ONEWORLD! How can they sell
the ticket as a Qantas codeshare and yet not tell me about no miles nor about their giving me only half
the miles of their trip?

No one to complain to so I gave up. OneWorld seems to have no corporate headquarters. Star
does have a president and people who can at least respond. In my opinion Star is much better but as I say,
"no one at US/AA asked me which Alliance to be in!"

There seems to be no way to figure what miles will accrue until the ticket is purchased.
 
HPRamper
Posts: 4992
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Tue May 26, 2015 11:46 am

Quoting Archer (Reply 32):
They said to contact Qantas. I did. They said JetStar is not part of ONEWORLD! How can they sell
the ticket as a Qantas codeshare and yet not tell me about no miles nor about their giving me only half
the miles of their trip?

Jetstar is a little bit of an oddity in that while it is owned by Qantas, it operates fairly independently. While Qantas is part of oneworld Jetstar is not, and the mileage accrual is interesting in that there is no mileage credit for flying in Y but in Business you do get Qantas miles. It's really supposed to be a low-cost carrier and apparently part of keeping costs low is not giving away frequent flyer points.
 
jetblue1965
Posts: 5050
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:28 pm

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Tue May 26, 2015 12:06 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 29):

Now I see your bias. You have a personal hatred against KE, so you use that as your platform against a DL/KE JV. Well done.
 
sw733
Posts: 5881
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:19 am

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Tue May 26, 2015 12:19 pm

Quoting peanuts (Reply 20):
Works like a charm. I fly way more nonstops as well.
It's just not worth it, the silly FF dance.

I am getting very close to that point. I have been EXP with AA for several years now, and am Million Miler, but I am getting ready to just take the flight that's easiest for me. Gets me home quicker to my family. This past weekend, I flew AKL-SFO-MCI on NZ/UA and got home a full 21 hours before I would have on QF/AA...that extra day with my family sure was nice. I missed out on a lot of miles, sure, but some things are more important in my book.
 
User avatar
einsteinboricua
Posts: 7863
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Tue May 26, 2015 12:27 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 19):
When a Diamond Medallion has an emergency meeting tomorrow (Tuesday AM flight required) and they book tonight, it's $794. Over double the money for the same flight--the Elite is FAR more valuable.

If a non-Elite member books at the same time, they're still charged $794 as well, plus the bag fee, a meal (if they order), et al. In fact, the non-Elite may be more valuable because there's no expectation to upgrade them at the airport, allowing someone else to claim that first class seat (whether buying it or upgrading someone else).

The Diamond Medallion may book that seat at $794, but assuming there's space for first class they get a free bump so it may actually seem that they got a first class seat for less.

It essentially works out both ways, however. In the long run, the Elites may be more valuable (they've spent more money) and thus get more perks. Per flight, however, a non-Elite may bring more revenue.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
lpdal
Posts: 1965
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:49 pm

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Tue May 26, 2015 12:52 pm

I thought airlines were in business to make money, so any move designed to transition to a profit-based loyalty program shouldn't be all that surprising.

Just from a practical standpoint, anyway...

-LPDAL
All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
jreuschl
Posts: 409
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:04 am

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Tue May 26, 2015 12:54 pm

Quoting travelmanager (Reply 24):
Seeing a typical Delta award for Business class to Europe go from 100K to 240K

Miles redemption in the new program is similar to what it was before. I am easily able to find 125K business class awards. Even 160K a couple of months out.

One of the changes DL boasted about is increased seat availability for miles.


I can partially understand the move to reward dollars purchased. $800 should get more miles vs. $300. The issue is flights flown before (as in the example of LAX-MSY) booked at lower fares are now worth *much* less.
 
Rbgso
Posts: 337
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:15 pm

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Tue May 26, 2015 12:54 pm

Quoting avek00 (Reply 2):
the airline plans to "innovate"

Which in the "monkey see-monkey do" marketing philosophy of the US airline industry means that AA will fall into line with DL and UA soon enough.
 
jetblue1965
Posts: 5050
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:28 pm

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Tue May 26, 2015 12:59 pm

LAX772LR's previous LAX-MSY examples of 5014 RDM vs. 920 in the new scheme seems to indicate he's DL Gold status (5014 / 3340 = ~1.50)

So for the newer ticket, he basically paid $115 (920 / 8) base fare for a roundtrip (which is dirt cheap) ... and still whining about RDMs.
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 2166
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Tue May 26, 2015 1:12 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 19):

I doubt that. Purchased in advance, I can fly a Tuesday AM ATL-LAX oneway for $224. Add in a bag (25) and a Comfort+ seat (89), call it half the Wifi charge since Gogo gets most of it (10) and a "meal" (8). Total: $356

When a Diamond Medallion has an emergency meeting tomorrow (Tuesday AM flight required) and they book tonight, it's $794. Over double the money for the same flight--the Elite is FAR more valuable.

You're comparing apples to carrots.

In your scenario, the non-status member who also had to book last minute would still pay >$100 more.

The Diamond Medallion in your example can also book another airline, like I did this morning because DL wanted a ridiculous amount, and another airline flew me non-stop for half the price... With the cross the board devaluation of airline mileage programs, I suspect more and more elites are "shopping" fares.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14231
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Tue May 26, 2015 1:23 pm

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 41):
The Diamond Medallion in your example can also book another airline, like I did this morning because DL wanted a ridiculous amount, and another airline flew me non-stop for half the price... With the cross the board devaluation of airline mileage programs, I suspect more and more elites are "shopping" fares.

I think you are right, but the effect of this varies drastically market-by-market. Where I am, many frequent travelers already send a large chunk of business to WN, and much of our legacy flying is therefore to smaller markets where there is little or no price competition. For that group, the changes have had virtually no effect.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
tomcbaker
Posts: 260
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:01 am

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Tue May 26, 2015 4:34 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 23):
Same for me. But at the end of the day, we just got told that that means nothing to them.
Don't care what the corporate apologists here say: that's a slap in the face, no matter how one slices it.

It's often difficult to debate these things on here because quite a few of the posters are airline/industry employees with certain strongly held biases (disclaimer: I'm a pilot myself and I am biased on certain things). Many who argue in favor of the recent changes to FF programs are either airline employees who non-rev anyway and couldn't care less (other than whether their employer is profitable or not), they were never elite status, or they are people who flew business/first anyway so this didn't really affect them.

It is what it is, but one fact as a result of DL/AS/BA/et al., changing their mileage programs is that it WILL (and already has in DL's case) forced many "budget elites" like me, who flew long distances on economy fares but who were still willing to pay more to stay loyal to said airline for mileage points, to now go with whatever is the cheapest ticket possible on Emirates, Hainan, China Southern, etc., since having a loyalty to a specific alliance or airline is now useless. It probably won't make a big difference for the airlines that have made these changes but it certainly will be a discernible change in loyalty for most of us.
Tom
 
stratacruiser
Posts: 234
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:07 pm

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Tue May 26, 2015 4:59 pm

The fare-based system significantly disadvantages FFs like myself who travel internationally for companies with a "lowest usable airfare" policy. I've had trans-Pacific trips on UA that yield about 40% of the mileage I would have earned under the old scheme. I've also had trips that resulted in more miles under the new scheme, but these tend to be on shorter domestic routes. Overall, my accrual is down about 40%.

Dave
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Topic Author
Posts: 12855
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Tue May 26, 2015 5:48 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 34):
You have a personal hatred against KE

Or any airline with pervasive/freaky/consistently-caused safety incidents.  
Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 40):
So for the newer ticket, he basically paid $115 (920 / 8) base fare for a roundtrip (which is dirt cheap) ... and still whining about RDMs.

My first is to suggest learning to read, as the Reply#10 already addresses this. But then, I think the suggestion of "use your common freakin' sense" is probably more apt to the situation-- they aren't selling that route for that price. I WISH THEY WERE, but they aren't. Wouldn't hear a peep out of me if they were.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
jetblue1965
Posts: 5050
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:28 pm

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Tue May 26, 2015 6:07 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 45):

My first is to suggest learning to read, as the Reply#10 already addresses this. But then, I think the suggestion of "use your common freakin' sense" is probably more apt to the situation-- they aren't selling that route for that price. I WISH THEY WERE, but they aren't. Wouldn't hear a peep out of me if they were.

Claim whatever you want. The math works out exactly as its supposed to be. 5014 / 3340 = 1.501 which is the 50% RDM bonus before the switch over, and 920 / 8 (8x being the Gold RDM ratio today) is a perfect integer of 115.

You said you paid nearly same price - all I'm hearing is that you paid 3.44cpm base fare (which is mileage-running level) and still complaining how unfair the new system is.

Unless you also show screenshots of what you paid (and that you didn't use tricks like hidden city ticketing), we have no way to verify all your claims.
 
steex
Posts: 1436
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:45 am

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Tue May 26, 2015 6:26 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 23):
You seem to be forgetting the not-so-minor little detail of "in exchange for service rendered" in that patronizingly simplistic allegory

It was intended to be simplistic, not patronizing. Your reference of "in exchange for service rendered" doesn't make sense to me here, though - they rendered the service of transportation, the rest was always intended to be a rewards program. While we all take rewards programs into considerations in our purchasing decisions, they are not actually the service. Changes to reward programs certainly should cause us to consider changing our purchasing decisions, but it's not personal or malicious, and it doesn't represent a corporate entity screwing us over.

Even so, let me contradict myself and consider "transportation plus frequent flyer miles" to be the service an airline provides. If an airline wanted to increase the unit price of that service, they have the following options:

1. Increase monetary cost of the service, leave the service identical
2. Leave the monetary cost identical, reduce the service (in this case by reducing the frequent flyer miles on some tickets)

For some reason, when the first option occurs, people take it in stride. Some people will say "ABC is too expensive, I'll fly on XYZ instead." Others say "that's okay, I'll still pay more money to fly on ABC." Still others choose not to go at all. When the second option occurs, though, people take it as a personal affront.

[Edited 2015-05-26 11:26:52]
 
Osubuckeyes
Posts: 1852
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:05 am

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Tue May 26, 2015 6:37 pm

Quoting Rbgso (Reply 39):
Which in the "monkey see-monkey do" marketing philosophy of the US airline industry means that AA will fall into line with DL and UA soon enough.

It isn't necessarily a marketing strategy. It is more of a lack of ambition to innovate and differentiate product that stems from a lack of competition.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 40):
So for the newer ticket, he basically paid $115 (920 / 8) base fare for a roundtrip (which is dirt cheap) ... and still whining about RDMs.

He would have had to spend ~$600 to gain equal miles though and that is pretty outrageous... So yes he got a deal, but at the same time even if he spend 2-300 on LAX-MSY he would have ended up with significantly less.

In sum DL has greatly reduced the mileage earned and left redemption more or less at the same levels, which pretty much makes it pointless to be loyal. I also think it is a bit ridiculous that you can earn 35 miles per dollar on flowers, so he could spend $115 on flowers and make 4025 miles redeemable on DL as opposed to actually being rebated for flying DL's actual product.
 
ordbosewr
Posts: 551
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:30 pm

RE: How Much Longer Will AAdvantage Hold Out?

Tue May 26, 2015 6:44 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 15):
Delta and United are interested in rewarding their very best customers

As others have stated. UA and DL are not rewarding their 'best customers' but rather they are rewarding their most profitable customers under the new scheme. Yes, they try to make it not hurt as much for those most loyal to the airline, by increasing the multiplier, but do not make the mistake that this was to help them.

I have had it both ways and I feel this was a welcome change.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AWACSooner, jeffh747, lysflyer, redzeppelin and 30 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos