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B747forever
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2hrs 15min Enough Doing NYC-YYZ-NYC?

Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:31 am

Thinking of flying on TAM arriving into YYZ at 13:00 from JFK and returning to LGA with AC at 15:15. Is that enough time to clear Canadian customs and then do US preclearance?
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INFINITI329
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RE: 2hrs 15min Enough Doing NYC-YYZ-NYC?

Tue Jul 07, 2015 6:17 am

Quoting B747forever (Thread starter):


Thats cutting it way to close. YYZ canadian customs is hit or miss its either empty or jam packed. If your not apart of nexus and/or global entry I would take a later flight YYZ-LGA

[Edited 2015-07-06 23:21:01]
 
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longhauler
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RE: 2hrs 15min Enough Doing NYC-YYZ-NYC?

Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:46 pm

With TAM, you arrive at T3, and with AC, you depart from T1. On top of Customs issues, the only way from T3 to T1 is by the interterminal train. It runs every 3 1/2 minutes and the run takes about 3 minutes.

It is do-able as long as everything is running on time.

[Edited 2015-07-07 05:47:35]
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KPWMSpotter
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RE: 2hrs 15min Enough Doing NYC-YYZ-NYC?

Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:34 am

US Pre-Clearance in YYZ can be a huge mess. I've typically had to wait 45 minutes to an hour to clear, however it may be quicker in the afternoon.

Personally, I would take a later flight or spend a day in Toronto. Having to clear two different customs/immigration lines in two hours is not my idea of fun...
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B747forever
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RE: 2hrs 15min Enough Doing NYC-YYZ-NYC?

Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:48 am

Thanks for the replies.

So instead I have booked AC going LGA-YUL-YOW-YYZ with 4hrs to connect back to JFK with TAM.
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roseflyer
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RE: 2hrs 15min Enough Doing NYC-YYZ-NYC?

Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:56 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 4):

So instead I have booked AC going LGA-YUL-YOW-YYZ with 4hrs to connect back to JFK with TAM.

That is quite a long trip to get from LGA to JFK. Hopefully the weather is good.

2 hours and 15 minutes is too short at YYZ if you have to switch terminals. You have to clear Canadian immigration and then US immigration. If you were all within the same terminal, then you would not go through Canadian Immigration and I would say you are fine. However it takes too long to go through immigration twice and security.
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reifel
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RE: 2hrs 15min Enough Doing NYC-YYZ-NYC?

Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:18 pm

lovely routing, thumbs up   I once did immigration in YOW coming from Frankfurt on AC, boy was that relaxed... But I guess you will clear in Montreal...
 
dc9northwest
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RE: 2hrs 15min Enough Doing NYC-YYZ-NYC?

Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:21 pm

No, 2 hours is not enough to see Toronto.
 
B747forever
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RE: 2hrs 15min Enough Doing NYC-YYZ-NYC?

Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:20 am

Quoting reifel (Reply 6):
lovely routing, thumbs up

Only paid $96 for LGA-YUL-YOW-YYZ and each leg is operated by 3 different airlines, AC and 2 of their regional carriers. All in all will add 4 new airlines and the rare CRJ705 to my log 
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 5):

That is quite a long trip to get from LGA to JFK. Hopefully the weather is good.

As I will be on the 6:25AM flight to YUL I doubt there will be any huge delays that early in the morning.
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zrs70
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RE: 2hrs 15min Enough Doing NYC-YYZ-NYC?

Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:43 am

While I think it should be enough time, I've had such bad experiences with border immigration on both sides. They really like to grill passengers on joy rides.
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longhauler
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RE: 2hrs 15min Enough Doing NYC-YYZ-NYC?

Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:28 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 8):
Only paid $96 for LGA-YUL-YOW-YYZ and each leg is operated by 3 different airlines, AC and 2 of their regional carriers.

Your routing makes perfect sense to me,  , and it sounds like a fun day.
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B747forever
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RE: 2hrs 15min Enough Doing NYC-YYZ-NYC?

Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:19 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 10):
Your routing makes perfect sense to me,  , and it sounds like a fun day.

To top it off, the TAM flight will be in J.
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dumbell2424
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RE: 2hrs 15min Enough Doing NYC-YYZ-NYC?

Fri Jul 10, 2015 5:37 pm

Separate tickets? Pushing your luck...if your inbound is late, you're at the mercy of the agents.
One ticket? Cabotage and shouldn't be bookable.
 
B747forever
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RE: 2hrs 15min Enough Doing NYC-YYZ-NYC?

Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:04 am

Quoting dumbell2424 (Reply 12):
Separate tickets? Pushing your luck...if your inbound is late, you're at the mercy of the agents.
One ticket? Cabotage and shouldn't be bookable.

Yes, it is separate tickets. However, with 4 hours to connect between AC and JJ in YYZ, I am not overly worried.
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longhauler
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RE: 2hrs 15min Enough Doing NYC-YYZ-NYC?

Sat Jul 11, 2015 3:13 pm

Quoting dumbell2424 (Reply 12):
Cabotage and shouldn't be bookable.

Cabotage?? From LGA to JFK? It really isn't regarded as any different from NYC-YYZ-NYC.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 13):
4 hours to connect between AC and JJ in YYZ, I am not overly worried.

4 Hours is more than enough. But ... if the unforseen happens, there are lots of options from YYZ-LGA/JFK/EWR!
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frostyj
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RE: 2hrs 15min Enough Doing NYC-YYZ-NYC?

Sat Jul 11, 2015 6:44 pm

Quoting B747forever (Thread starter):

No Us Preclearance will take at least half an hour.
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steex
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RE: 2hrs 15min Enough Doing NYC-YYZ-NYC?

Sat Jul 11, 2015 9:50 pm

Quoting dumbell2424 (Reply 12):
One ticket? Cabotage and shouldn't be bookable.

It's not cabotage as it would not be regarded as a domestic flight. It's generally not possible to book a one-way fare within an IATA metropolitan area airport code (LGA->JFK would be NYC->NYC), so it would be ticketed as an NYC-Canada-NYC round-trip fare or two separate NYC-Canada and Canada-NYC one-way fares. No such thing as cabotage on an international segment.
 
Viscount724
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RE: 2hrs 15min Enough Doing NYC-YYZ-NYC?

Sun Jul 12, 2015 1:46 am

Quoting dumbell2424 (Reply 12):
One ticket? Cabotage and shouldn't be bookable

Cabotage refers to a foreign airline carrying a passenger between two points in the same country. That's not relevant on an international journey like U.S.-Canada.
 
dumbell2424
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RE: 2hrs 15min Enough Doing NYC-YYZ-NYC?

Sat Jul 18, 2015 4:32 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 14):
Cabotage?? From LGA to JFK? It really isn't regarded as any different from NYC-
Quoting steex (Reply 16):
It's not cabotage as it would not be regarded as a domestic flight. It's generally not possible to book a one-way fare within an IATA metropolitan area airport code (LGA->JFK would be NYC->NYC), so it would be ticketed as an NYC-Canada-NYC round-trip fare or two separate NYC-Canada and Canada-NYC one-way fares. No such thing as cabotage on an international segment.
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):
Cabotage refers to a foreign airline carrying a passenger between two points in the same country. That's not relevant on an international journey like U.S.-Canada.

Actually, cabotage laws are in effect for a single ticket, not a single flight. The law forbids a single ticket USA-USA via a second country. For example, you couldn't do SEA-YVR-JFK to catch Cathay on the YVR-JFK leg on a single ticket. So yes, it's a perfectly valid and legal itinerary if you buy it as two separate tickets. And yes, it would be cabotage and illegal if it could be booked as one ticket

See 49 U.S.C. § 41703

[Edited 2015-07-17 21:33:01]
 
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longhauler
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RE: 2hrs 15min Enough Doing NYC-YYZ-NYC?

Sat Jul 18, 2015 7:45 pm

Quoting dumbell2424 (Reply 18):
So yes, it's a perfectly valid and legal itinerary if you buy it as two separate tickets. And yes, it would be cabotage and illegal if it could be booked as one ticket

Yes, that would be correct if the origin of the PNR and final destination were two separate cities. SEA-YVR-JFK as you note. But ... LGA-YYZ-LGA is not cabotage on one ticket, it is simply a round trip.

So the question here is LGA vice JFK, is it one city or not? And, it IS possible to book JFK-YYZ-LGA on one ticket, as it is not regarded as cabotage. In other words, LGA, JFK and EWR are the same city. It's just a round trip ticket.
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steex
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RE: 2hrs 15min Enough Doing NYC-YYZ-NYC?

Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:32 pm

Quoting dumbell2424 (Reply 18):
Actually, cabotage laws are in effect for a single ticket, not a single flight. The law forbids a single ticket USA-USA via a second country.
Quoting longhauler (Reply 19):
Yes, that would be correct if the origin of the PNR and final destination were two separate cities. SEA-YVR-JFK as you note. But ... LGA-YYZ-LGA is not cabotage on one ticket, it is simply a round trip.

As noted, it's not about it being a single ticket rather than a single flight - round-trip travel with six flights could still be on a single ticket and that does not make it cabotage if the origin and destination are in different countries. Instead, it's about how the fare rules of the ticket are worded. If OP somehow found a legal JFK->LGA published fare, then foreign carriers could not be a part of the itinerary. No such fare exists, though, so this ticket would reflect a JFK->Canada fare component combined with a Canada->LGA fare component as part of a single round-trip ticket using coterminals.
 
zrs70
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RE: 2hrs 15min Enough Doing NYC-YYZ-NYC?

Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:46 am

I believe I once routed lax-nrt-gum on a single ticket.

Is gum an exception to cabotage?
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classicjets
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RE: 2hrs 15min Enough Doing NYC-YYZ-NYC?

Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:35 am

Quoting Zrs70 (Reply 21):
Is gum an exception to cabotage?

There is an exception for flying to GUM from the rest of the US via another country. The rule does state however that at least one leg must be on a US airline. So LAX-NRT-GUM all on JL would be against the rules but LAX-NRT-GUM on UA or LAX-NRT on NH and NRT-GUM on UA would be okay.
 
Viscount724
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RE: 2hrs 15min Enough Doing NYC-YYZ-NYC?

Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:16 am

Quoting classicjets (Reply 22):
Quoting Zrs70 (Reply 21):
Is gum an exception to cabotage?

There is an exception for flying to GUM from the rest of the US via another country. The rule does state however that at least one leg must be on a US airline. So LAX-NRT-GUM all on JL would be against the rules but LAX-NRT-GUM on UA or LAX-NRT on NH and NRT-GUM on UA would be okay.

In that example, it's only cabotage if you use a non-US carrier between two U.S. points. If a U.S. carrier is used on one of the legs, it's not cabotage. Same as, for example, AC who couldn't legally sell a ticket LGA-YYZ-LAX, but there's no problem if one of the legs is on a U.S. carrier.

KE was fined quite heavily by the DOT some years ago for openly advertising and selling GUM-ICN-mainland U.S. tickets.

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