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BoeingVista
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:39 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 18):
As for driving in, the risk is remote

Totally disagree, France is pissed with Belguim for the terrorists it harbours and the ease with which they can drive intothe country, expect road border controls to restart.

Quoting Zealandflyer (Reply 19):
And then comes the issue: How will the other countries not affected by the possible visa restrictions, i.e. the EU/Schengen countries remaning in the Visa Waiver Programme, react? If only 5 out of the 26 countries are affected then I have trouble seeing a common reaction against the US from then Schengen area.

Yes, huge issue especially as 3 of the top 4 populous / GDP nations are involved but the smaller nations are not. UK may have a big hand in how this is resolved if it ends up in a QVM situation even though they are not Schengen they are in the visa scheme.

Quoting okapi (Reply 28):
Quite strange not to see the UK included in this affair after the infamous British / Jamaican citizen who tried to set his shoes on fire on board a plane a few years ago.

He had the correct documentation.. The UK actually performed a mass passport cancellation a few years ago and keeps tight hold of access to them so they are not a sinner in this issue.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 30):
Absolutely. And the reciprocation would be EU-wide.

It really depends on what kind of law / agreement enables this as this is not a blanket issue affecting the whole EU.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 40):
I travel a lot inside the Schengen area and very rarely have my ID checked. In fact it flabbergasts me that in the current environment anyone can board a flight even if the ticket isn't in their name. The only exception to this rule I have seen is in Italy where they ask for ID before boarding domestic flights.

Yes, its wrong.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 42):
Most of the arguments here are nonsense. What has a paperless Syrian refugee to do with somebody travelling with a valid European passport?

The issue is he can easily become a papered refugee and travel where ever he wants on false papers; this is / should be of genuine concern.
BV
 
jayunited
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:23 am

Quoting DDR (Reply 3):
Can't really blame the U.S. for this one.

Exactly.

I think this has a lot more to do with terrorism and the U.S. trying to track Isis fighters who may try to return to the U.S. but using fraudulent or stolen passports than any thing else. Since the Paris attacks there has been increasing pressure placed on the department of Homeland Security to track people who are returning to the U.S. from what some people call Middle East hot zones. There was a news report some time ago after Paris stating that the government is tracking citizens who go over to the Middle East to join Isis. However when asked what is being done to stop these people from coming home or intercepting them upon their return one government official states that is difficult to do because a lot of these fighters when they do decided to return home are not using their U.S. passport instead they are using stolen or fraudulent passports making it extremely difficult to track them. So basically if the U.S. government does not intervene and stop potential Isis recruits before they leave America it is almost impossible to stop them from coming back into this country if they are using a fraudulent passport and not their U.S. passport to reenter.

With so many refugees spilling into many European countries it has officials here in this country worried that perhaps potential Isis recruits may hide among the refugees enter Europe obtain documentation then use that documentation to reenter the U.S. as an Isis fighter and to carry out an attack here on U.S. soil. So you can not blame the U.S. government for requesting that officials in Europe take the problem of fraudulent and stolen passports seriously and do something to address the problem. And I'm sure European countries are taking this problem seriously and are doing every thing they can to intercept and stop Isis recruits but more importantly stop Isis fighters from entering their countries or transiting through their countries.
 
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scbriml
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:59 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 36):
All 300 million of them are arrogant. Right.

No, just the ones that spout nonsense like "You need us more than we need you." or the classic "You'd all be speaking German if it wasn't for us."   

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 38):
Lufthansa usually does not check ID for domestic flights.

How about if you have checked baggage? BA only checks ID in the UK if you have checked baggage.
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WIederling
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:01 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 50):
The issue is he can easily become a papered refugee and travel where ever he wants on false papers; this is / should be of genuine concern.

How many travel with fake or "borrowed" US papers abroad ?
( same with the UK. Used to be easy to get real papers for nonexistant persons.
actually all the countries that have a mishmash of various papers ( drivers license, ... )
instead of an official ID. )
Murphy is an optimist
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:09 pm

Quoting WIederling (Reply 53):
How many travel with fake or "borrowed" US papers abroad ?
( same with the UK. Used to be easy to get real papers for nonexistant persons.
actually all the countries that have a mishmash of various papers ( drivers license, ... )
instead of an official ID. )

The UK has made a genuine effort to make sure that the dead remain dead and do not infact still enjoy the benefit of airmiles, they also cancelled ALL passports belonging to people incarcerated a while back and enforce a system that bars them from travel abroad abroad for periods as part of sentences.

So your point is that false papers are of no concern? Then why bother with papers at all..
BV
 
mjoelnir
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:10 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 50):
The issue is he can easily become a papered refugee and travel where ever he wants on false papers; this is / should be of genuine concern.

Completely rubbish. Without being a EU citizen and having an EU passport he would not fall under the visa waiver program.
Plain fear mongering.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 50):
Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 40):
I travel a lot inside the Schengen area and very rarely have my ID checked. In fact it flabbergasts me that in the current environment anyone can board a flight even if the ticket isn't in their name. The only exception to this rule I have seen is in Italy where they ask for ID before boarding domestic flights.

Yes, its wrong.

Since summer 2015 I have not flown a flight were my id was not checked, even KUO to to HEL.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 50):
Quoting scbriml (Reply 30):
Absolutely. And the reciprocation would be EU-wide.

It really depends on what kind of law / agreement enables this as this is not a blanket issue affecting the whole EU.

Schengen wide. All Schengen countries have the same visa rules, as it allows you to travel inside of Schengen.
USA puts visa on members of Schengen, Schengen reciprocates. You need a visa to visit a Schengen country, you will need a visa for all Schengen countries.
 
PanHAM
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:15 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 52):

How about if you have checked baggage? BA only checks ID in the UK if you have checked baggage.


I never fly with checked baggage on German domestic flights. Possible that the Lady at the bag drop asks for an ID, or the machoine requires the ID to process the baggage tag.

Quoting WIederling (Reply 53):
actually all the countries that have a mishmash of various papers ( drivers license, ... )
instead of an official ID. )

I am not claiming that faking an ID or a passport is impossible in Germany but in order to get an ID/passport you must be a registered citizen, your data must be in the System and since we have the biometric data stored as well the chances are Nil.

Cancelling the visa waiver System for Germany would be unjustified.
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BoeingVista
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:17 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 55):
Completely rubbish. Without being a EU citizen and having an EU passport he would not fall under the visa waiver program.
Plain fear mongering.

You choose not to undestand English today?

False EU passport turns refugee into EU citizen which entitles him to visa waver program.

This is not complicated.
BV
 
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caoimhin
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:19 pm

Quoting WIederling (Reply 25):

To a part probably retaliation for doing business with Iran.

Another reason then to route around the US.
( Often enough talked to travellers that
more and more avoid US transit )

At least your bias is consistent across threads.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 30):
It's said some people dislike Americans because of their arrogance.

Certainly nobody has ever accused the British, French, Germans, Russians, Chinese, or just about any other large population, of arrogance. Fortunately, most adults are capable of recognising and disregarding stereotypes as incomplete and unproductive.

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 40):
I can't see it being cancelled as it is a prestige project for the EU and would be seen as extremely damaging to its reputation. Also, countries like France and Germany are too proud to allow it to be dismantled. Just like they were too proud to allow Greece to leave the Euro.

   That's my impression as well. Elimination of Schengen would portend the elimination of a political union in Europe, and that is an unbearable thought to many lawmakers who have invested their reputation in the success of that project.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 42):
I hope Schengen will introduce a Visa requirement for USA citizen the moment the USA closes the visa waiver program on major European countries and perhaps include a special line for USA citizen to ask them stupid questions causing a minimum two hours delay through immigration.

Thanks for this, but we already often have such a privilege when traveling to countries for which we don't require a visa. The result from what you propose would be progressively more retaliatory protocols implemented until visas are required of all who wish to travel to the US, above and beyond the five mentioned in this proposal.

Nations have a a sovereign right (and responsibility) to restrict their borders. Still, amongst nations with good relations, border controls are for legitimate enforcement of national security and shouldn't be used as political weapons. As many US destinations benefit from bilateral visa-free travel to these five countries, it's not something that would be done lightly or without respect to a genuine security interest; I'm sure the Dept of State would much rather have tourism from these populations. Still, there's a balancing of interests here--and if a nation deems that tourism is less important than responding to a security threat, they are justified in requiring visas from whomever they deem appropriate.
 
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XAM2175
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:19 pm

Quoting Andy33 (Reply 32):
Not that it affects the force of the argument, but:

It's also worth noting - again purely for completeness - that the four European Free Trade Association member states, namely Switzerland, Norway, Iceland, and Liechtenstein, are also all participants in the Schengen Agreement but are not full EU members.

Additionally Monaco, San Marino, and the Vatican City are considered de facto participants as, although they are not signatories, they have open borders with their surrounding Schengen countries.

In the case of Switzerland (at least) this means that, while there are currently no restrictions on the free movement of people across its land borders, said people are still potentially subject to customs controls.
 
WIederling
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:25 pm

On the first hand:
https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/12/buying_fake_eur.html

second hand:
we've seen a rush of Syrian fake passports.

( if the refugees had access to EU pasports they would not have to
queue for asylum at Mutti Merkels place  

third hand:
with all the snooping the NSA does their boos should know which ones are fake.  ))
Murphy is an optimist
 
LGAviation
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:28 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 50):
Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 42):
Most of the arguments here are nonsense. What has a paperless Syrian refugee to do with somebody travelling with a valid European passport?

The issue is he can easily become a papered refugee and travel where ever he wants on false papers; this is / should be of genuine concern.

It might come as a surprise to you, but we don't issue them passports, we issue refugee documentation and virtually no country grants them visa-free access traveling on these papers.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 52):
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 38):
Lufthansa usually does not check ID for domestic flights.

How about if you have checked baggage? BA only checks ID in the UK if you have checked baggage.

Nah, in Germany we don't ever check IDs for anything except visa checks. There are these nice automated bag drops all over FRA, HAM and others where you scan your boarding pass and place your bag in without anyone checking anything.
However, there are some exceptions in the Schengen Area. In Italy for example, even LH always checks my ID and you might have a situation where you traveled FRA-MXP without any ID just fine and might be surprised that the way back isn't that easy. Sometimes however, German Federal Police checks passports directly at the aircraft coming from Italy.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 51):
I think this has a lot more to do with terrorism and the U.S. trying to track Isis fighters who may try to return to the U.S. but using fraudulent or stolen passports than any thing else.

I never thought of it as a provocative or hostile act or anything and understand your terrorism concerns, but suspending VWP membership is exaggerated and I certainly think that if the Schengen Area decided for example due to improper international departure checks in the US to suspend Annex II membership, that the US would in turn exclude Europeans from the VWP as well. Let's not make all of us losers in this.
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skipness1E
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:30 pm

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 4):
I wouldn't say five out of 23 is "a lot." Plus all except Croatia have been nominated for being added to the program.

By POPULATION volume, I mean come off it, FRANCE is on that list.
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:40 pm

Quoting LGAviation (Reply 61):

It might come as a surprise to you, but we don't issue them passports, we issue refugee documentation and virtually no country grants them visa-free access traveling on these papers.

It may come as a surprise to you but documents are stolen and altered then sold.
BV
 
PanHAM
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:49 pm

Stolen passports are reported to the Police by their owners. A simple entry in the System voids These passports.

Besides, the biometric data would not match, not speaking of the Picture. A stolen/faked passport would never go undetected at an Airport, at least not a German passport an a European Airport.
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LGAviation
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:53 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 62):

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 4):
I wouldn't say five out of 23 is "a lot." Plus all except Croatia have been nominated for being added to the program.

By POPULATION volume, I mean come off it, FRANCE is on that list.

U.S. citizens enjoy visa-free access to ALL Schengen member states including your beloved Paris, Neuschwanstein, Rome and the Acropolis. Take those away and ask yourself whether that's not a significant part of Europe. And those nominations aren't visa-free access. Croatia and Poland don't just nominate Americans, they let them in
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BoeingVista
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:57 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 64):
Stolen passports are reported to the Police by their owners. A simple entry in the System voids These passports.

Besides, the biometric data would not match, not speaking of the Picture. A stolen/faked passport would never go undetected at an Airport, at least not a German passport an a European Airport.

You'd think, but that is not actually true for various reasons we probably shouldnt go into here.. You are going to have to trust me on this.. obviously you won't, lol, but I know from first hand experience that is not true.
BV
 
TheSonntag
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 1:42 pm

Removing Germany from ESTA won't happen. It is as easy as this.
 
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lesfalls
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 1:58 pm

i have never been checked on any flights within Schengen other then one flight recently.
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mjoelnir
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:04 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 57):
Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 55):
Completely rubbish. Without being a EU citizen and having an EU passport he would not fall under the visa waiver program.
Plain fear mongering.

You choose not to undestand English today?

False EU passport turns refugee into EU citizen which entitles him to visa waver program.

This is not complicated.

Again complete BS.

You do not get an official fake passport just because you are a refugee in Europe.

As the only guys known to have shown up with false EU passports standing up to serious inspection are the Mossad, the USA should not be too afraid of them. And the biometric passport from most European countries should make even that difficult today.

If you would explain to me how you fake biometric data we would advance a step in the discussion. The passport including biometric data is difficult to tamper with. The EU, excluding Denmark, Ireland and the UK implemented the European directive from 2004 regarding the biometric passport as well as Iceland, Lichtenstein, Norway and Swiss.
The UK implemented the biometric passport in 2006, Ireland and Denmark implemented it too, but more recently.
Germany for example moved to a biometric passport in 2005 with a ten years validity and did not extend older passports, so there should be no non biometric German passport in use today, something you can not say about the USA. In Iceland the last non biometric passports should are running out this year in May, so you have not been able to travel to the USA since December on an old style passport.
The latest standard EU passport (also EEA) has a chip placement making it nearly impossible to tamper with the chip.
I have such a passport the last five years, older chip passports starting in Iceland 2006 had a validity of only 5 years.

The USA is implementing biometric passports since 2007, but the old passport are in use as long as they are valid. AFAIK first this year old passports are not any longer extended in the USA. So we will see USA passports without biometric data for years to come.

So if you are afraid of passports tampered with, you should look at older passports from the USA, UK, Ireland and Denmark rather than the rest of the EU/EEA.
 
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pvjin
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:05 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 67):
Removing Germany from ESTA won't happen. It is as easy as this.

You can't possibly know what will happen in the future. An 9/11 scale terrorist attack in Europe is only matter of time since Merke allowed thousands of ISIS terrorists to enter Germany. Anything can happen after that.
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mjoelnir
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:18 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 66):
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 64):
Stolen passports are reported to the Police by their owners. A simple entry in the System voids These passports.

Besides, the biometric data would not match, not speaking of the Picture. A stolen/faked passport would never go undetected at an Airport, at least not a German passport an a European Airport.

You'd think, but that is not actually true for various reasons we probably shouldnt go into here.. You are going to have to trust me on this.. obviously you won't, lol, but I know from first hand experience that is not true.

You are just bullshitting. Trust me I know better is a very silly argument when you loose the discussion.

The passports from most EU/EEA countries are far advanced in implementing features in making them tamper proof, than for example an USA passport but the latest version. Every new version goes a few steps further, while older passports drop out of use. Many countries in the world are just starting this process.

[Edited 2016-02-02 06:22:30]
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:21 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 69):
You do not get an official fake passport just because you are a refugee in Europe.

Alrighty then..

You seem a bit confused, by this conversation. I'm sure that all border authorities will be conforted by your assertion that fake passports DO NOT EXIST.

But as you cannot grasp a simple arguement (and as I happen to know the truth of this) I will allow you your ignorance.

Good day Sir.
BV
 
FlyingSicilian
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:32 pm

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 17):
How so?
If you just look at the number of passports involved (consider that the percentage of US Citizens having a passport is relatively lower) and the average income/lifestyle of the traveler I would not say "a lot more".
I hope this does not happen at all, but fully expect my Country to reciprocate, possibly at EU/Schengen level.

no it will not.

We have been slow enough in Italia to implement the credit card style ID card.The EU is angry enough at Italy for still having national ID cards from WWI.
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TheSonntag
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:33 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 70):
An 9/11 scale terrorist attack in Europe is only matter of time since Merke allowed thousands of ISIS terrorists to enter Germany

Constantly repeating this upper right wing b/s does not make it any closer to the truth.
 
mjoelnir
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:34 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 72):
lrighty then..

You seem a bit confused, by this conversation. I'm sure that all border authorities will be conforted by your assertion that fake passports DO NOT EXIST.

But as you cannot grasp a simple arguement (and as I happen to know the truth of this) I will allow you your ignorance.

Good day Sir.

I did not say that say do not exist. And the person that can not grasp an argument are you. Any passport but an European is easier to tamper with, if you go to the USA try rather an older fake USA one. My argument is against European passports could pose an added risk.
If you are talking about Schengen, you have a database of passports and identity cards including all stolen ones. There is anyway a much tighter identity control in Schengen countries than either the USA or UK for example. You do not only have immigration but also exit controls out of Schengen, where a passport or identity card is not only looked at but machine read and compared.
So if you want to exit or enter Schengen with a fake Schengen id you have a very big chance of being caught.

[Edited 2016-02-02 06:38:32]
 
copter808
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:34 pm

Quoting zkeoj (Reply 39):
I am another one.... I love travelling in the USA, and I also often just transit through LAX or SFO on my way to/from Europe. But if I need a visa, I will no longer do this, and instead opt for transit points in Asia.

Wish our people in Washington could comprehend this. Many peoiple already avoid the US airports for this reason.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 47):
Nothing that was recently invented by US authorities to make "travel safer" makes a lot of sense. The latest EU passports with biometric data are "safe" and requiring visa from passengers who have "recently" been in Iran etc is BS. What about having met an Iranian in Germany? Or having spoken to an Iraqui on the phone?

Very valid points.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:39 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 12):
They are planning to suspend it. What's the point of enforcing land borders if someone can just fly over them?

They are not planning on suspending it, you watch far too much fox. Besides refugees who closing the land borders is aimed at don't have the funds to fly. You can still fly between Sweden and Denmark as per usual it's just a border check if you take the train or drive.
 
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enilria
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:43 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Thread starter):
The 5 countries are France, Belgium, Germany, Italy and Greece who have been given a February 1 deadline to fix “crucial loopholes” or lose access to the U.S. visa waiver program.

Stolen Passports are a genuine security issue, US is probably right to demand action on this.

http://www.politico.eu/article/europ...ghts/
Quoting enilria (Reply 2):
This has severe implications if it takes place and is reciprocated which is typical.

It is unlikely in my view this will happen, but if it did I think reciprocity is very likely.

Depending upon how this is implemented at airports it could be a huge boon for LHR, AMS, and the ME3. Oddly enough, it hits the alliance hubs of those opposed to the ME3 almost exclusively, except AMS which has the new Delta-Jet Airways (partially owned by EY) deal in place, which moved from BRU which is impacted.
 
JimJupiter
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:54 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 57):
False EU passport turns refugee into EU citizen which entitles him to visa waver program.

The problem with forged passports concerns Syrian passports and is primarily a problem for European authorities who try to identify refugees. And Syria is no part of the VWP.

Quoting WIederling (Reply 60):
On the first hand:
https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/12/buying_fake_eur.html

second hand:
we've seen a rush of Syrian fake passports.

( if the refugees had access to EU pasports they would not have to
queue for asylum at Mutti Merkels place  

  
One is born, one runs up bills, one dies.
 
royaldutchgirl
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:17 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 9):
It cannot be reciprocated in this case because there is no border within Schengen Area unless the US disqualifies all Schengen countries.

Hopefully they will disqualify all Schengen/EU countries. That would be funny! The EU dictatorship does nothing to protect its citizens and its identity. European leaders like Merkel are traitors and we Europeans let it all happen, so we deserve it.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:39 pm

Quoting royaldutchgirl (Reply 80):
The EU dictatorship

Russia is a dictatorship. Europe is a haven of freedom and human rights. I am seriously appalled to read all this Nonsense on the Internet.
 
AM744
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:41 pm

I wouldn't be so sure it can't happen. The US doesn't mess around with those things. There have been visa requirements for pretty much everybody except Canada before the inception of the Visa Waiver Program in 1986, I think. As for the scale, we are required to have visas, and there is a LOT of travel between the US and Mexico, so they can handle it.
 
irelayer
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:50 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 52):
No, just the ones that spout nonsense like "You need us more than we need you." or the classic "You'd all be speaking German if it wasn't for us."

You go too far with your stereotyping. Say what you will about Americans travelers, but I've never heard anyone of us say something as stupid as that except in movies as a joke. What's with all the hate anyway?

Quoting zkeoj (Reply 39):
LAX is another prime example. Never understood why I have to go through immigration when just transiting. Even less logical is going through customs, just to re-check 2 meters after the customs control for your ongoing flight out of the USA (i.e. to Europe). What's the point? If I don't have access to my luggage in transit (on a "normal" interlined transfer), I can't smuggle stuff in or out of the US that way. If it is about safety, just run the luggage through scanners and load for the next flight.

Simple reason. US CBP doesn't have exit controls, only entry controls. So when you land in LAX, what are they supposed to do? Let you right into the terminal to board your connecting flight? Once they let you loose in the terminal, you could just walk out the door and be on US soil without having your passport stamped!

So yeah you have to go through immigration. Why do you have to go through customs? Same thing...I'm now technically in the country, and I can just pass off my ebony tusks, counterfeit merch, 80 cartons of cigs, and fresh fruits and veg to some other dude that is leaving...totally defeats the purpose of having customs checks.

-IR
 
PanHAM
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:57 pm

Quoting irelayer (Reply 83):
So yeah you have to go through immigration. Why do you have to go through customs? Same thing...I'm now technically in the country, and I can just pass off my ebony tusks, counterfeit merch, 80 cartons of cigs, and fresh fruits and veg to some

Or the large Airports like LAX, MIA etc could simply have a sterile Transit area like the rest of the planet does it. Quite simple, but US Airports, even the large ones are built like there is no rest of the planet.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
tortugamon
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 4:06 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 84):
Or the large Airports like LAX, MIA etc could simply have a sterile Transit area like the rest of the planet does it. Quite simple, but US Airports, even the large ones are built like there is no rest of the planet.

Much easier to build customs/immigration at the point of departure and have them park at domestic gates. Very few airports have that high of a concentration to international travel to warrant the changes that would be necessary for a sterile transit area of relevant size. Plus, US is much more motivated toward security than making transfers easier - visa regulations making transfers a pain already and that isn't changing any time soon.

tortugamon
 
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JerseyFlyer
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 4:09 pm

Affected EU citizens may as well holiday in Iran if they are going to need to go through a US visa process anyway!
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 8964
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 4:09 pm

Quoting royaldutchgirl (Reply 80):
Quoting tortugamon (Reply 9):
It cannot be reciprocated in this case because there is no border within Schengen Area unless the US disqualifies all Schengen countries.

Hopefully they will disqualify all Schengen/EU countries. That would be funny! The EU dictatorship does nothing to protect its citizens and its identity. European leaders like Merkel are traitors and we Europeans let it all happen, so we deserve it.

been listening to much to Geert Wilders I assume.
 
frostyj
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 4:27 pm

Quoting DAL763ER (Reply 44):

Heaven on earth! One country! Are you mad?

Why would Europeans want to join up to become one country? We have our own cultures.
[url=http://m.maploco.com/details/5f34zxvq][img]http://www.maploco.com/vmap/s/8395334.png[/img][/url]
 
INFINITI329
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 4:31 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 15):

I put this question before, I had a Visa since the 1970s which was "B1/B2, multiple entries, no expiration Limit" and I still have the old passport with that Visa. The US could make such Visa vaölid again and save loyal visitors the hassle to obtain a new Visa

Seeing how it was pre 9/11 highly likely this would fly
 
PanHAM
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 4:46 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 85):
Much easier to build customs/immigration at the point of departure and have them park at domestic gates. Very few airports have that

LAX has an international terminal with enough traffic, so dos ORD. MIA could qualify and ATL. It can be done all over the worldonly the US is unable.......
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
LGAviation
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 4:48 pm

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 86):
Affected EU citizens may as well holiday in Iran if they are going to need to go through a US visa process anyway!

With Iran's VoA for Europeans except for unaffected Britons   that'd be easier. But still, I don't think anything will happen. I know Mr Obama doesn't like to portray himself as a particular Europhile, but in the end in times of conflicts with Russia, ISIS and so many others we shouldn't put our loyalty to question. It's just that I don't like the way the US tries to resolve this issue because if there's anything wrong with the way we issue passports in Germany, which I highly doubt having gone through the process myself, then they could've just suggested some changes and not threatened half of Europe with the no-VWP gun.

Quoting frostyj (Reply 88):
Heaven on earth! One country! Are you mad?

Why would Europeans want to join up to become one country? We have our own cultures.

So do Scots and the Welsh
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LGAviation
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 4:52 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 90):

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 85):
Much easier to build customs/immigration at the point of departure and have them park at domestic gates. Very few airports have that

LAX has an international terminal with enough traffic, so dos ORD. MIA could qualify and ATL. It can be done all over the worldonly the US is unable.......

Certainly you could add departure immigration checks at major gateways and I'd include DFW, IAH, SFO, BOS and JFK for but I'm not sure whether a split transfer regime wouldn't add more confusion to the system.
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santi319
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:18 pm

Some of the responses here.... I don't know why some of you waste your time. A book named "The Culture of Fear" can make you get a better understanding of what they have been trying to do for a while...

Anyway, I do hope they reciprocate if it goes through! You will be shocked at the border checkpoints in the Canada/US border and how easy it is to enter the country there...
 
DAL763ER
Posts: 524
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:28 pm

Quoting frostyj (Reply 88):
Heaven on earth! One country! Are you mad?

Why would Europeans want to join up to become one country? We have our own cultures.

I'm not sure if you're joking. But, if you are, that's exactly the type of thinking that keeps us so fearful and disjoint.

People have been familiarizing themselves with different cultures for hundreds of years, but even more prominently in the past century or so by way of air travel. What would be so wrong about Europe being one country? One financial and political system, no borders etc. Even with multiple languages separating us, most young people speak at least English these days so there's nothing really preventing it from happening. It's mostly just things like ego (i.e, French are better than German or vice versa etc) and foolishness that are tearing Europe up as we speak...
 
ubeema
Posts: 398
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:41 pm

-I just caught up with this thread, so correct me if I am wrong. Can someone confirm if the article from OP is supported by a a news release from the US Statement Department which is the only authority regarding Visa waiver program to issue any "threat" of that sort?

I just browsed the website but I cannot find anything related to this.
 
RIX
Posts: 1590
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:42 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 42):

The only group that has been known for using European passports for a terrorist act in a third country in the near past has been the Mossad.

Careful, they are coming for you.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 49):

For years there was no serious id check on inside Schengen flights, from the middle of last year I have not had one flight were my id was not checked, either by the airline and/or security control.

They are protecting you from Mossad, don't you understand? Live with it, dude.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 74):
Quoting pvjin (Reply 70):
An 9/11 scale terrorist attack in Europe is only matter of time since Merke allowed thousands of ISIS terrorists to enter Germany

Constantly repeating this upper right wing b/s does not make it any closer to the truth.

Events like Nov 13 do. As well as your head in sand "right wing bs" stand.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 81):
Russia is a dictatorship. Europe is a haven of freedom and human rights.

Tell this to the guy threatened by police after he posted on Facebook his disapproval of the idea to shelter migrants in his small town. Not that he is the only one...

(No complains on your first statement though).
 
Ferroviarius
Posts: 257
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:28 am

RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:44 pm

Quoting frostyj (Reply 88):
Why would Europeans want to join up to become one country? We have our own cultures.

For pragmatic reasons!
Just consider how efficient it would be with one legal system, one administrative system a. s. o.

Forgetting about any form of "patriotism" - a rather primitive and bad part of human biology - is very much different from loosing one's culture. A Bavarian is so very much different in religion, language, culture from a person from Lübeck! Nevertheless, they are both citizens of the same country. I assume that a person from Hamburg has more in common culturally with a person from London than with a farmer from the Black Forest!


AND it would be very important, to my mind, that this country would NOT have any national anthem and NOT have any soccer team!

Albert Einstein has written in 1915 a very interesting essay on "patriotism" and "nationality". It is entitled "Was ich über den Krieg denke." and can be found on the internet. Very interesting reading!



Best,

Ferroviarius

PS: I assume, that this message soon will be removed by one of the moderators for "not having anything to do with aviation". However, keep in mind that the entire thread is not really aviation related!
 
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pvjin
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RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:45 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 74):
Constantly repeating this upper right wing b/s does not make it any closer to the truth.

We'll see who is right. I will be extremely surprised if my predictions don't become a reality within next 5 years or so unless European countries change their immigration policies dramatically.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
StTim
Posts: 3481
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:39 am

RE: 5 EU Countries Risk Losing Visa Free Travel To

Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:55 pm

Quoting DAL763ER (Reply 94):

People have been familiarizing themselves with different cultures for hundreds of years, but even more prominently in the past century or so by way of air travel. What would be so wrong about Europe being one country? One financial and political system, no borders etc. Even with multiple languages separating us, most young people speak at least English these days so there's nothing really preventing it from happening. It's mostly just things like ego (i.e, French are better than German or vice versa etc) and foolishness that are tearing Europe up as we speak...

This may be too political. A single country is obviously what the political project is about BUT it is not what many if not most people want. Take the UK - we joined something called the common market, which became the European Economic Community which became the European Union. Most done by stealth by unelected aparatchicks in Brussels. I suspect that the integration has reached a plateau of not a zenith at the moment. The upcoming referendum in the UK is not a given.

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