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Sooner787
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AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Fares

Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:48 pm

Here's a memo we received yesterday from the bossman

"My client pulled out of first class and told to sit in coach…had A seat confirm with seat number….basically…even though you are confirmed in first…they are taking you out of your seat and putting you in coach if a higher fare paying customer or a high level Advantage customer wants your first class seat…."

I know AA's AAdvantage program is now about how much $$$$ you spent on a ticket,
but these A and P fares aren't exactly cheap.

And the US carriers wonder why foreign carriers are kicking their butts when it comes
to customer service

Let the debate begin   
 
MIflyer12
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:51 pm

Aircraft substitution?
 
alfa164
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:53 pm

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 1):

Aircraft substitution?

Air Marshall shows up at the last minute?
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LAXintl
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:55 pm

I dont see what the problem is.

If a seat is needed then airlines have always used criteria such as looking at upgrades, fare class and FF status level to decide if customer downgrade is required.

Non-event really.
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N717TW
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:55 pm

I thought on AA "A" class fares were actual first class fares and not Instant upgrade "Y-up" fares; whereas R and X is the code given to coach fares that are bumped into F.
 
winginit
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:55 pm

1) I imagine this is an extremely uncommon occurrence.

2) When it does happen, it's likely because the passenger who booked last minute was a CK or VIP who likely spends tens if not thousands of $$$ flying AA every year; in which case, sounds like a wise business move by the company to keep that customer happy. Alternatively, as has been mentioned it could be an aircraft substitution or air marshal scenario, in which case this is a non-issue.

Not sure whether there's grounds for debate here?

Quoting Sooner787 (Thread starter):
And the US carriers wonder why foreign carriers are kicking their butts when it comes
to customer service

You can be sure that, given similar circumstances (a full premium cabin and a very high value customer, an aircraft substitution, or an air marshal scenario), a foreign carrier would do the exact same thing.

[Edited 2016-03-29 10:56:40]

[Edited 2016-03-29 10:57:14]
 
a380787
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:57 pm

Even paid full-fare F can be forced to downgrade to J or Y if the seat is demanded by federal air marshall - absolutely nothing the airline can do, nor is the airline allowed to communicate the true reason to the customer either. Nothing to see here.
 
roseflyer
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:07 pm

Quoting Sooner787 (Thread starter):
they are taking you out of your seat and putting you in coach if a higher fare paying customer or a high level Advantage customer wants your first class seat…."

That is not necessarily happening. If a higher paying customer or a higher level advantage customer wants a seat, an AA agent can't simply kick someone on a different fare out. What can happen is that there is an airplane change with fewer first class seats, an air marshal took the seat, a pilot or airline staff under their contract get the seat while deadheading or it was overbooked. Some airlines overbook first and business class. It is far less common than economy, but it does happen. Air Marshals show up and they kick a passenger out of a seat. The excuse given is often anger invoking because the agent can't give the real reason.

AA may offer next flight guarantees for flight cancellations for their top frequent flyers, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they will get first class. I don't think that at any level of frequent flyer level anyone has guaranteed access to a first class seat. I believe deadheading pilots and air marshals may be the only ones to get guaranteed first on any flight.

Even at the highers frequent flyer levels, AA will not overbook first class and remove someone that had paid for first class. Involuntary downgrades are not common, but sometimes they happen.

By the way it isn't just American. I was flying Cathay Pacific transpacific in business class. They paged me while in the lounge and said they had an offer for me. They said they were offering me $1500 USD to give up my business class seat and fly in premium economy instead since business class was overbooked. I told them it was a ridiculous offer since I was on a $6400 ticket. $1500 was not even the difference in business and economy fares when I booked. After getting forceful, I was able to keep my seat. I essentially told them that I don't want $1500 refunded to my corporate credit card and that I would consider it an involuntary downgrade and fight for far more than 25% of the value of the ticket. Fortunately they were nice, but I think they found someone else who was willing to take their "offer" of an involuntary downgrade for only the fare difference.

[Edited 2016-03-29 11:11:31]
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Zkpilot
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:23 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 6):
Even paid full-fare F can be forced to downgrade to J or Y if the seat is demanded by federal air marshall - absolutely nothing the airline can do, nor is the airline allowed to communicate the true reason to the customer either. Nothing to see here.

Don't see why the airline couldn't call/email/write to that passenger in the days after the event to advise the real reason since by then it would no longer be a security issue.
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a380787
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:30 pm

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 8):

Don't see why the airline couldn't call/email/write to that passenger in the days after the event to advise the real reason since by then it would no longer be a security issue.

I don't think airlines have that liberty either. It might be a policy / directive coming straight from FAA (or is it TSA?) with zero room to wiggle.
 
ahmetdouas
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:34 pm

haha i just book economy. at least i know they cannot 'downgrade' me any further. and if they overbook and kick me out, they have to pay compensation, which, unless i am in a hurry, really wouldn't mind much.
 
Planesmart
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:04 pm

In olden times, when employers often paid for first class, I sometimes worked with a colleague, who cashed in tickets for economy, to accumulate credits or cash to take his family on holiday. When this became more difficult, he switched to asking the airline on check in, if they needed his help. Would volunteer to accept a last minute downgrade, provided the cash compensation reflected the different seat, plus a bit more for his discomfort, and his FF wasn't affected.
 
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Moose135
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:22 pm

Quoting ahmetdouas (Reply 10):
i just book economy. at least i know they cannot 'downgrade' me any further.

That's what you think - ever ride in the overhead compartment?  
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USAirALB
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:33 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 9):
I don't think airlines have that liberty either. It might be a policy / directive coming straight from FAA (or is it TSA?) with zero room to wiggle.

It's such a stupid policy IMHO.

It's far to easy to point out air marshalls on flights-they always board first either before or during the pre-boarding process, and are seated in J/F.
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SonomaFlyer
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:34 pm

Absent an Air Marshal issue, I didn't think an airline could pull someone off just because someone else wanted the seat. If they do, it should then be an involuntary denial and the rules are clear on the cost to the airline.

Please correct me if I got it wrong but thought that was the rule.
 
Sooner787
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:45 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 14):
Absent an Air Marshal issue, I didn't think an airline could pull someone off just because someone else wanted the seat. If they do, it should then be an involuntary denial and the rules are clear on the cost to the airline.

Please correct me if I got it wrong but thought that was the rule.

This wan't an air marshal issue or equipment substitution. Our AA sales rep
told the boss man that was a new policy going forward and we might want to consider
advising any clients booking such a fare that this is possibility.
 
a380787
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:57 pm

Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 15):

This wan't an air marshal issue or equipment substitution. Our AA sales rep
told the boss man that was a new policy going forward and we might want to consider
advising any clients booking such a fare that this is possibility.

That's a horrible policy. So in a 24F plane booked full up front, they can technically still overbook it by another 24 and just kick all the lower fares to the back of the bus ?
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:59 pm

Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 15):

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 14):
Absent an Air Marshal issue, I didn't think an airline could pull someone off just because someone else wanted the seat. If they do, it should then be an involuntary denial and the rules are clear on the cost to the airline.

Please correct me if I got it wrong but thought that was the rule.

This wan't an air marshal issue or equipment substitution. Our AA sales rep
told the boss man that was a new policy going forward and we might want to consider
advising any clients booking such a fare that this is possibility.

There is no such new policy.

This thread is a joke. Stuff happens, it sucks, was extremely unprofessional on American's behalf and the client needs to be fairly compensated by American Airlines. But to make this seem like it's anything more than a one-off situation is inane.

AA does not overbook F class (I don't think any major carrier does), but it does have so many different aircraft configurations, even within the same type, that equipment changes can force downgrades. That might have happened here, in which case the downgraded client needs to be compensated. In my opinion, such compensation should be the entire cost of the fare.

[Edited 2016-03-29 13:02:45]
a.
 
Sooner787
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:07 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
But to make this seem like it's anything more than a one-off situation is inane.

Here's reply we received from our AA rep( with names deleted)
Looks like a policy to me.....

" I took at a look at the record and it is an UP fare which is an economy fare with an instant upgrade. This is from the fare rules:

V FARE BASIS BK FARE TRAVEL-TICKET AP MINMAX RTG
7 ¤MA00ZRI1/WAUP A¥X 630.00 ---- -/1 -/ - 405
PASSENGER TYPE-ADT AUTO PRICE-YES
FROM-DFW TO-SAN CXR-AA TVL-20MAR16 RULE-WAUP FBRNAPV/191
FARE BASIS-MA00ZRI1/WAUP NORMAL FARE DIS-N VENDOR-ATP
FARE TYPE-END OW-ECONOMY NON-DISCOUNTABLE
USD 586.04 0405 E07JAN16 D-INFINITY FC-MA00ZRI1 FN-
SYSTEM DATES - CREATED 05MAR16/1627 EXPIRES INFINITY

50.RULE APPLICATION AND OTHER CONDITIONS
NOTE - THE FOLLOWING TEXT IS INFORMATIONAL AND NOT
VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING.
NOTE - THE FOLLOWING TEXT IS INFORMATIONAL AND NOT
VALIDATED FOR AUTOPRICING.
AND - ECONOMY FARE WITH AN INSTANT ONE-CLASS UPGRADE
AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE TO FIRST/BUSINESS.
APPLICATION
CLASS OF SERVICE
THESE FARES APPLY FOR ECONOMY CLASS SERVICE.
CAPACITY LIMITATIONS
SEATS ARE LIMITED.
BOTH ECONOMY AND FIRST CLASS BOOKING INVENTORIES
MUST BE AVAILABLE AT TIME OF BOOKING. THESE FARES¥


I apologize again that this happened. I know it must have been very disappointing to her to be downgraded. I’m going to talk to xxxxxxx and xxxxxx about this as we have been discussing these types of downgrades recently and how we can prevent the number of occurrences. Do your agents inform the customer of the type of fare they are purchasing when they sell them an UP fare? I would encourage them to let the customer know that it is in fact an economy fare with an upgrade. Some of my other agency accounts have started doing that and including something in the confirmation email to the customer as well. "
 
ozglobal
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:08 pm

Quoting Sooner787 (Thread starter):
And the US carriers wonder why foreign carriers are kicking their butts when it comes
to customer service

I agree. I have flown a lot of carriers in J and sometimes F on long haul international and NEVER once have I seen a downgrade after boarding. It's the sort of thing that would be a deal breaker for any airline for me.

The way to handle the problem is at checkin or the gate and provide options: like what AF did for me out of NRT when they were overbooked on the A340 in J. They offered me F on the 772 90mins later and both planes arrived roughly together into CDG.

They turned a problem in to a memorable customer experience.
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Carfield
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:12 pm

The only thing that I am concerned is how I will be compensated in these situations.
I will consider that an involuntary downgrade and expect the right amount of compensation, and a "confirmed" first class seat on the next flight. If the next confirmed first class flight is on the next day, they need to provide accommodation.

Honestly sometimes these "Y-Upgrade" fares are very confusing to passengers, and airlines need to make their rules more clear. I feel that airlines need to tell passengers that you might be bumped off because you are not really considered a first class paying passenger. Airlines need to put out how they will handle the downgrade and what kind of compensation will be provided!

Carfield
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:14 pm

Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 18):
Here's reply we received from our AA rep( with names deleted)
Looks like a policy to me.....

" I took at a look at the record and it is an UP fare which is an economy fare with an instant upgrade. This is from the fare rules:

It's an UP fare. That's an economy fare, not a first class fare, so, yes, that oversells. Even though it is a Y fare, the seats is in F, but in case of delays, equipment swap, etc., it might be in Y. The guy explains it very well.

If on an UP fare, passenger is entitled to wait for the next available F seat or take a Y seat on that flight.

So in the end, the entire topic of the thread is very misleading because AA is not in fact pulling paid first class passengers.

I do absolutely agree that the way AA sells UP fares is very confusing and they need to seriously work on making it more clear to passengers that it is a coach ticket.
a.
 
delimit
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:22 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 21):
So in the end, the entire topic of the thread is very misleading because AA is not in fact pulling paid first class passengers.

That would depend, really. I've never heard of an airline revoking an upgraded seat once assigned; just waiting to confirm until they were ready for the passenger to board.
 
Sooner787
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:23 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 21):
I do absolutely agree that the way AA sells UP fares is very confusing and they need to seriously work on making it more clear to passengers that it is a coach ticket.

I think that was the point of me posting this. When something like this happens,
the client screams at us or the poor overworked ticketing agent at the airport.

The guys and gals in the "God Pod" don't have to deal with customers themselves,
so there's little incentive to make the rules clearer.

[Edited 2016-03-29 13:25:31]
 
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flybynight
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:16 pm

Air Marshalls always get to fly Business or First?
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cathay747
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:22 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 21):
It's an UP fare. That's an economy fare, not a first class fare, so, yes, that oversells. Even though it is a Y fare, the seats is in F, but in case of delays, equipment swap, etc., it might be in Y. The guy explains it very well.

If on an UP fare, passenger is entitled to wait for the next available F seat or take a Y seat on that flight.

So in the end, the entire topic of the thread is very misleading because AA is not in fact pulling paid first class passengers.

I do absolutely agree that the way AA sells UP fares is very confusing and they need to seriously work on making it more clear to passengers that it is a coach ticket.

Yes indeed...we book these all the time for our corporate customer.
They are deeply-discounted non-refundable economy fares which, at
the time of booking if A or P (or whatever the airlines uses) is available
AS WELL AS the inventory for the actual fare (V for instance), then you
can book in the higher inventory and the GDS will price at the lower economy
fare.

DL and HA both do this as well as AA; in my experience, AA and DL are
mostly to/from Latin America/Caribbean, but don't hold me to that. UA
may also do this but I'm not sure. I've seen a few domestic markets too.
I am using one of these fares on HA to/from Hawaii in December; quite
a deal...$1135 r/t PHX/HNL/PHX in First!

Now, what I didn't know is that they might downgrade somebody, but I'm
sure only in the example of Air Marshal requiring a seat or equip. change
to an aircraft with fewer seats up front...then yes, they will downgrade
somebody who's booked at an economy fare...makes sense.
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slvrblt
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:36 pm

Once in a while, you DO get situations where you have to pull people out of first. And it does depend on reverse ticket hierarchy (cost) how it's done. A good example is a domestic 757 with either (22F or 24F) gets pulled and an Intl 757 is sub'd in the trip (16F). The UPG's are always the first to be downgraded.
..everything works out in the end.
 
a380787
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:40 pm

Quoting flybynight (Reply 24):
Air Marshalls always get to fly Business or First?

I think they have the right to demand any pax seat in any cabin, but given (1) closer to cockpit, and (2) higher comfort, there's little reason for them to purposely pick the back of the bus unless there's a very good reason. They also tend to be the aisle seat.

I don't *think* they can demand the FA seat or the jump seat, but maybe someone correct me here.
 
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Stitch
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:47 pm

Quoting cathay747 (Reply 25):
UA may also do this but I'm not sure.

In my experience on UA, "A" fares book as (discounted) First Class. "P" fares were for P.S. (premium trans-continental services).
 
DLD9S
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:51 pm

AA, UA and DL all have these types of fares - AA tends to be in P, DL in G, don't remember UA.

These types of fares can be purchased directly from the airlines on their websites, and all none of them currently market these as "economy with an upgrade", but instead "first class"... They also get returned when you search for first class fares, just not "unrestricted first class".

I have a feeling a lot of customers willing to pay extra for confirmed first are also elite with one or more programs, so when they think of upgrade, they think of the whole waiting game that happens 24/72/100 hours before departure. There is no reason - unless they just love reading 1000 lines of fare rules - that this fare they get when searching for "first class" is just a coach seat that has already been upgraded.

I am curious to how the compensation works - whenever I have booked these fares, the YUP fare is about $100-$150 more than the cheapest economy. I would expect at least that amount back.
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PA110
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:53 pm

Earlier comments about higher tier / elite FF and higher paying passengers wanting the seat being able to displace a ticketed and boarded passenger are flat out incorrect. It is not within an airport agent's discretion to resell an existing occupied seat.

The only case in which a revenue passenger can be downgraded (other than Air Marshalls) is a configuration change resulting in fewer seats. In such cases, existing passengers are reprotected based on established priorities. A "go-show" cannot simply turn up and displace a ticketed and boarded passenger without management intervention and a compelling reason.
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AEROFAN
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 10:51 pm

Some of you airline folks are cray cray. No discussion here... Are some of you off your rockers?
There is no way I would accept a downgrade to coach if I have paid for business or first. No way in hell!
The fact that I paid for business or first would indicate I have no interest in flying coach. The carrier would have to find another sucker to downgrade.
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threeifbyair
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 10:57 pm

Quoting ahmetdouas (Reply 10):
haha i just book economy. at least i know they cannot 'downgrade' me any further.

They can certainly give you a worse Y seat though. Last year I was, shall we say, "strongly convinced" by an FA to move from an aisle in the front to a window at the back to allow a mother to sit next to her son. Just last week I saw another situation, but luckily it was not my seat being reassigned.

Fair warning if you are an elite flying in Y on a non-elite heavy route. Your "preferred" seat may be requisitioned by families that can't sit together because they bought tickets after all the "non-preferred" seats were taken.
 
a380787
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:02 pm

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 32):

Fair warning if you are an elite flying in Y on a non-elite heavy route. Your "preferred" seat may be requisitioned by families that can't sit together because they bought tickets after all the "non-preferred" seats were taken.

That's why I always go for the exit roll when I have the chance, since no children allowed there.
 
dc10lover
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:06 pm

"And the US carriers wonder why foreign carriers are kicking their butts when it comes
to customer service "

I believe carriers in the USA only care about pleasing Wall Street. No one else matters. Not even employees or passengers matter.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
DLD9S
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:09 pm

Sooner787 - did you pax get any type of compensation or refund?
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alfa164
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:12 pm

Quoting flybynight (Reply 24):
Air Marshalls always get to fly Business or First?

They always demand a seat up front. Wouldn't you if you could get by with it?

Quoting a380787 (Reply 33):
That's why I always go for the exit roll when I have the chance, since no children allowed there.

Those exit rolls are extra-tasty, too...   
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I have decided to be cremated....
 
a380787
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:13 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 36):

Quoting a380787 (Reply 33):
That's why I always go for the exit roll when I have the chance, since no children allowed there.

Those exit rolls are extra-tasty, too...   

Stupid iphone autocorrect.
 
IPFreely
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:14 pm

Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 18):
I know it must have been very disappointing to her to be downgraded.

But she wasn't downgraded. She bought an economy fare expecting an upgrade *IF* all of these requirements were met:

Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 18):
THESE FARES APPLY FOR ECONOMY CLASS SERVICE.
CAPACITY LIMITATIONS
SEATS ARE LIMITED.
BOTH ECONOMY AND FIRST CLASS BOOKING INVENTORIES
MUST BE AVAILABLE AT TIME OF BOOKING.

If she wanted guaranteed F class she should have bought a F ticket.

Quoting AEROFAN (Reply 31):
There is no way I would accept a downgrade to coach if I have paid for business or first. No way in hell!

An upgradeable economy fare is just that -- an economy fare. Buy an "F" fare and you will sit in "F". Buy an "A" or a "P" fare and you take your chances. The contract you accept lists many conditions that must be met for you to get the upgrade you feel "entitled" to.
 
DLD9S
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:34 pm

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 38):
But she wasn't downgraded. She bought an economy fare expecting an upgrade *IF* all of these requirements were met:

Those rules mean that both economy (Q,O,N,L, etc...) and first (P) inventory be available at time of booking, not available at time of departure.
717 727 737 747 757 767 777 DC9 DC10 M80 M90 M11 L10 AB6 333 340 319 320 321 ARJ CRJ EM2 EMJ SF3 146 100 BE1...
 
KLAM
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:41 pm

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 38):
If she wanted guaranteed F class she should have bought a F ticket.

Most people do not know that. I booked an A fare on UA a few days ago. I was surprised at how cheap it was... Alas, now I know it is an economy seat in disguise. I may now be bumped down to Y! I would for sure make some disingenuous noise mostly because the fare is advertised as "Lowest First Class" or something along those lines. I guess it sells more to advertise it as lowest first than as "First with a very slim chance of downgrade" or as "economy and we are doing you a favour."
flyOM
 
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DocLightning
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:41 pm

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 7):
By the way it isn't just American. I was flying Cathay Pacific transpacific in business class. They paged me while in the lounge and said they had an offer for me. They said they were offering me $1500 USD to give up my business class seat and fly in premium economy instead since business class was overbooked. I told them it was a ridiculous offer since I was on a $6400 ticket. $1500 was not even the difference in business and economy fares when I booked. After getting forceful, I was able to keep my seat. I essentially told them that I don't want $1500 refunded to my corporate credit card and that I would consider it an involuntary downgrade and fight for far more than 25% of the value of the ticket. Fortunately they were nice, but I think they found someone else who was willing to take their "offer" of an involuntary downgrade for only the fare difference.

In other countries, if you are involuntarily downgraded, you are afforded compensation. In the U.S. you get the "difference in fare."

While the discounted Y ticket might have been $200 and your F ticket was $1,200, the airline might refund you $20 because that's the difference between full-fare Y and the F fare that you paid. In my opinion, this is something that is going to require legislative action. If I purchase an F-class ticket and I don't get an F-class seat, I expect to get the difference between my F-class ticket and the least expensive Y-class ticket available on the day I purchased it, AT LEAST. Otherwise, I consider this to be fraud on the part of the airline.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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MAH4546
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:46 pm

AA will still guarantee you an F seat on a Y-UP fare, but you will be forced to wait for the next flight with an available F seat.
a.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:49 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 41):
While the discounted Y ticket might have been $200 and your F ticket was $1,200, the airline might refund you $20 because that's the difference between full-fare Y and the F fare that you paid. In my opinion, this is something that is going to require legislative action.

Even more troubling, seeing that sometimes full-Y fares are higher than discounted paid-F
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
aaexecplat
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:54 pm

Quoting DLD9S (Reply 39):

Those rules mean that both economy (Q,O,N,L, etc...) and first (P) inventory be available at time of booking, not available at time of departure.

Don't waste your time. To some, it is perfectly OK for airlines to do whatever they want and that extends to their employees. FA boots pax from flight due to power trip? That's because the FA is there for safety first and the law allows for it. Pilot drunk? No biggie...happens all the time and the rules are dumb. Airlines colluding on fares? That's cool because for too long, airlines have been losing money (all management's fault and not the work groups btw....oh and the bum passengers).

As far as AA is concerned...Doug and his team are doing damage to the airline. They are moving in the wrong dirction and the next recession will really prove that, I believe.
 
winginit
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:01 am

Quoting AEROFAN (Reply 31):
There is no way I would accept a downgrade to coach if I have paid for business or first. No way in hell!
The fact that I paid for business or first would indicate I have no interest in flying coach. The carrier would have to find another sucker to downgrade.

Or else what exactly? You'd stomp your feet and hold your breath until you're blue in the face? Honestly.

Quoting dc10lover (Reply 34):
I believe carriers in the USA only care about pleasing Wall Street.

The purpose of a corporation is to maximize shareholder wealth.
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:08 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 43):

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 41):
While the discounted Y ticket might have been $200 and your F ticket was $1,200, the airline might refund you $20 because that's the difference between full-fare Y and the F fare that you paid. In my opinion, this is something that is going to require legislative action.

Even more troubling, seeing that sometimes full-Y fares are higher than discounted paid-F

Why is that troubling? Full fare Y has flexibility and be refunded. Discount paid F cannot be.
a.
 
RogerMurdock
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:09 am

Y-UP fares are a fraud on the public when they are totally marketed as "First" with buried or hidden fare rules explaining their true nature.
 
jacobin777
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:31 am

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 14):
Absent an Air Marshal issue, I didn't think an airline could pull someone off just because someone else wanted the seat. If they do, it should then be an involuntary denial and the rules are clear on the cost to the airline.

Please correct me if I got it wrong but thought that was the rule.

Here you go:

"Top management at all the unions receives a designation A-5 travel pass. With this perk, APFA president Laura Glading and her family can travel first class anyplace, anytime and have priority that can bump a full fare passenger. Ms. Glading can retire at the end of her term with this benefit intact. Her predecessor, Tommy Hitto-Blake retired with A-5 travel. At the time it was kept secret from union membership. Why keep it hidden if there is nothing underhanded going on."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/...ill-step-down-friday/#4fcd33e5c3be

Quoting delimit (Reply 22):
. I've never heard of an airline revoking an upgraded seat once assigned;

It happened to my wife and I on our way from OGG. On AA no less.
"Up the Irons!"
 
jfkgig
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RE: AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Far

Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:53 am

Sounds like a clear cut consumer fraud to me, except that the United States has in effect raised airlines above the law and made it impossible for consumers to seek legal redress against airlines in court for any complaint related to fares or services. The US airlines -- and I would say AA in particular -- enjoy this legal immunity by taking full advantage of their special legal status.

I had been an extremely loyal AA customer for a number of years, but the new management has cured me of that. I still travel AA often, but no longer feel obligated to maintain my status there, and fly whomever has the best routing and fare. They won't realize it for a few years, but one day AA management will live to regret their willingness to screw their most loyal customers.

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