AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Fares

Sooner787 · Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:02 am

Quoting DLD9S (Reply 35):
Sooner787 - did you pax get any type of compensation or refund?

Don't know, boss is out of town until Friday, so I'll have to ask when he gets back.
It was one of his VVIP clients that got " demoted"

usdcaguy · Wed Mar 30, 2016 2:37 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 21):
I do absolutely agree that the way AA sells UP fares is very confusing and they need to seriously work on making it more clear to passengers that it is a coach ticket.

Unfortunately, there's no way for agencies to get this info to the customer. They process almost all domestic tickets through their online booking tool, which will tell the customers they are booking a first class seat (they point to booking inventory, not the fare basis code), and that makes expectations skyrocket. Telling agencies they should tell the customer what they are buying is patronizing; it's the equivalent of telling a business partner how to run their business. Why doesn't AA simply file first class fares at those fare levels instead of using UP fares? There's no reason why certain first class fares can't be filed with penalties. Of course, it's not just AA, but it's all the legacies who are doing this.

Pellegrine · Wed Mar 30, 2016 2:45 am

I'd make them rebook me on the next flight on another carrier in F. I doubt they'd want to deal with the lawsuit (COCs are made to be broken) and bad publicity with a client like me.

I absolutely wouldn't sit in Y if I paid for F. That would NEVER happen.

DariusBieber · Wed Mar 30, 2016 2:47 am

Not a big deal... Wasn't the money spent on the first class ticket refunded? If it wasn't refunded then it's a major issue and shame on AA. Would be a very appalling move, one that actually wouldn't surprise me coming from AA.

[Edited 2016-03-29 19:49:11]

HPAEAA · Wed Mar 30, 2016 2:49 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
I dont see what the problem is.

If a seat is needed then airlines have always used criteria such as looking at upgrades, fare class and FF status level to decide if customer downgrade is required.

Non-event really.

I agree but compensation is in order, if they advertise/sell a F class seat at the price then they must offer it, if Y-ups are being grouped under F class on the web site then they should redefine the sales strategy or honored as a full F fare.

Pellegrine · Wed Mar 30, 2016 2:53 am

Quoting DariusBieber (Reply 53):
Not a big deal... Wasn't the money spent on the first class ticket refunded? If it wasn't refunded then it's a major issue and shame on AA. Would be a very appalling move, one that actually wouldn't surprise me coming from AA.

Simple. Call CC company and file a dispute. This is often the best course of action with a business/customer dispute, because if you just approach them as a 'simple' customer they don't take you seriously. When they get a call from the compliance/fraud office of say Citibank/Bank of America/American Express...they start to jump high posthaste.

grbauc · Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:15 am

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 32):

Quoting AEROFAN (Reply 31):

Some of you airline folks are cray cray. No discussion here... Are some of you off your rockers?
There is no way I would accept a downgrade to coach if I have paid for business or first. No way in hell!
The fact that I paid for business or first would indicate I have no interest in flying coach. The carrier would have to find another sucker to downgrade.

Have you read the tread?? Because its been determined that the fair was a coach class upgraded fair.

Flighty · Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:28 am

Quoting roseflyer (Reply 7):
That is not necessarily happening. If a higher paying customer or a higher level advantage customer wants a seat, an AA agent can't simply kick someone on a different fare out. What can happen is that there is an airplane change with fewer first class seats, an air marshal took the seat, a pilot or airline staff under their contract get the seat while deadheading or it was overbooked. Some airlines overbook first and business class. It is far less common than economy, but it does happen. Air Marshals show up and they kick a passenger out of a seat. The excuse given is often anger invoking because the agent can't give the real reason.

This is the correct answer. The airline shall provide travel in class of service specified unless there is an operational reason why not (not a business reason why not). Airline can cancel the whole flight. Airline can substitute a 757 with a CRJ-900. But airline cannot randomly downgrade you from a paid seat (discount F) because a higher fare class person arrived (full F). That would be fraud. You bought an F class seat and, if it exists, you own it, to the extent any revenue passenger possibly does.

I am not clear if nonrefundable F class fares are subject to a refund in case of downgrade. Refundable fares, I think by definition can be refunded if the service is not delivered as promised.

Quoting grbauc (Reply 56):
Have you read the tread?? Because its been determined that the fair was a coach class upgraded fair.

Standby, free upgrades are totally subject to airline judgment at moment of departure. There is no recourse there because airlines do not go into the gritty details of boarding priority (including union master council members, company chairmen, etc). They will upgrade you if space is available.

But paid upgrades.. I do not think they should bump paid upgrades (this should be counted as a Denied Boarding practically) but apparently they may prioritize who they bump by fare, if a sky marshal shows up. I am stil dubious. I would rather they do it by check-in time. A paid F upgrade is really a revenue F class passenger in my book.

[Edited 2016-03-29 20:35:21]

DLD9S · Wed Mar 30, 2016 4:05 am

Quoting grbauc (Reply 56):
Have you read the tread?? Because its been determined that the fair was a coach class upgraded fair.

I politely disagree with that statement. The fares are sold as first class, showing a first class seat map, using a first class booking class. The only way you can tell that these fares are based on economy class is if you call the airline and ask them or you read the fare rules... Fare rules that are often IN ALL CAPS and use unusual abbreviations and codes that are hard to follow if you don't work in the airline industry.

fbgdavidson · Wed Mar 30, 2016 4:16 am

These fares have been around for years, at least since I started flying domestically within the US with any regularity (about 2005/2006) and the rules are largely unchanged. I've taken hundreds of these "UP" flights on AA and have never been downgraded, not even a hint of it. I've had several cases of IRROPS too, most recently last month, where I've missed my connecting flight and I've always been rebooked into F on the next flight with an F cabin (some of the routes I fly have single class RJs mixed with F cabins) and have never had to fight it. I've always selected "First with Restrictions" as it used to be known or just picked the purple "First" cabin option on AA.com

I have several more itineraries with these fares in the next few months and shall continue to keep purchasing them.

IPFreely · Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:02 am

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 52):

I'd make them rebook me on the next flight on another carrier in F

You'd make them, eh? LOL. That would be fun to see.

IPFreely · Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:08 am

Quoting winginit (Reply 45):
Quoting AEROFAN (Reply 31):
There is no way I would accept a downgrade to coach if I have paid for business or first. No way in hell!
The fact that I paid for business or first would indicate I have no interest in flying coach. The carrier would have to find another sucker to downgrade.

Or else what exactly? You'd stomp your feet and hold your breath until you're blue in the face? Honestly.

Internet tough-guy drama queens like aerofan are good for a laugh. We all know he would meekly put his head down and do what he was told. In real life he would wet his pants at the thought of the confrontations he boasts about online.

OB1504 · Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:17 am

American Airlines does not downgrade premium cabin passengers for the purpose of reselling the seat for a higher fare and/or accommodating an elite.

The only time AA will downgrade a passenger is in the event of an oversale. AA does not oversell its premium cabins, so oversales are generally only the result of an aircraft substitution. In those cases, the first passengers to be downgraded are the "true" upgrades (originally purchased and ticketed in coach), and if there still aren't enough seats left, they go by fare paid. The -UP fares tend to be the cheapest first class fares and those are therefore the next to go.

AA.com used to be more clear about these fares. I remember there used to be a column for economy, "instant upgrade" (-UP fare), and "true" business/first class fares. Now the website just displays the lowest premium cabin fare and the only way to know if it's an -UP fare is to look at the fare rules, and there's no way to exclude these fares from the search or to upfare to a "true" premium cabin fare without calling in.

That being said, I personally would have no hesitation about flying on an -UP fare. Being bumped is extremely rare and 99% of the time it's exactly like any other first class ticket.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 36):
They always demand a seat up front. Wouldn't you if you could get by with it?

It's because they need to be near the cockpit door. The air marshal isn't doing to do a lot of good if he's seated in 41A when something happens.

Nouflyer · Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:28 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 28):

In my experience on UA, "A" fares book as (discounted) First Class. "P" fares were for P.S. (premium trans-continental services).

Interestingly, on my "other" Star Alliance program, of the United fare classes:

A and F earn as First Class
P earns as Business Class
Z earns as Full Economy Class.

Even though they map into the same seats!

skedguy · Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:30 am

Quoting DLD9S (Reply 58):
I politely disagree with that statement. The fares are sold as first class, showing a first class seat map, using a first class booking class. The only way you can tell that these fares are based on economy class is if you call the airline and ask them or you read the fare rules... Fare rules that are often IN ALL CAPS and use unusual abbreviations and codes that are hard to follow if you don't work in the airline industry.

Agreed. I'll also add the AA awards class-of-service bonus miles for these fares. For all intents and purposes, AA is marketing these fares as normal F fares to their customers, pure and simple. When you do a fare shop on AA.com, these fares are often the only option that appears under the "F" cabin column. An average, reasonable customer is going to assume they are paying for a seat in F that is non-revocable. Lastly, you can't even see the actual fare basis code of a Y-UP fare and its associated rules until after you've selected the flights and have moved on to the final screen before payment. AA used to have it on the same screen as the flights, but they buried the "view fare rules" when they re-vamped AA.com a few years ago. They made it harder -- not easier -- for the average consumer to decipher the complicated tariff language.

eta unknown · Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:50 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
That might have happened here, in which case the downgraded client needs to be compensated. In my opinion, such compensation should be the entire cost of the fare.

Absolutely not- the pax needs to pay for the service of being transported from A to B no matter where they sat on the aircraft.

CiC · Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:52 am

Might be funny if this will happen to me.

I'm too tall for coach (1,85m - but very loooong legs and a shorter body), so I always have to buy a biz or F ticket (as cheap as possible!), or on tourist flights a guaranteed XL seat/ first row.

If someone reclines the seat in a 32/34'' seat pitch it's impossible, and on 31'' I'm sitting like a frog occupying 25% seat width of the next seat... (happened once when Lufthansa made a plance change from the 744 with 32'' to the 346 with 28''... 7hrs in the galley!)

So the purser has a challenge or the airline has to change my flights...

Who else here has this problem?

chrisair · Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:16 am

It's been happening a lot on the PMUS A319s that have been reconfigured. Happened recently on my PHX-YYC flight that went from 12F to 8F. Four people were sent to the back (I think they got MCE). But some were quite unhappy.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Non-event really.

Until you go from 2A to 18E on the newly configured PMUS A319s.

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 61):
Internet tough-guy drama queens like aerofan are good for a laugh. We all know he would meekly put his head down and do what he was told. In real life he would wet his pants at the thought of the confrontations he boasts about online.

Wow, aren't we just a ball of sunshine?

Quoting skedguy (Reply 64):
For all intents and purposes, AA is marketing these fares as normal F fares to their customers, pure and simple.

Someone will get sue happy at some point and these types of fares will become a lot more transparent. I've only had this happen once on DL due to an ac swap. I ended up getting the fare difference refunded, which is totally reasonable compensation, IMO. Obviously getting out of 27E helped alleviate some annoyance from this.

ahmetdouas · Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:22 am

Quoting CiC (Reply 66):

Relax dude I am 1.90 and its not nice, but you just live with it. I am not paying 4x the money just for the pleasure of business. And of course I do walk around a lot = ) But yes I try to do 34 inch pitch whenever I can.

fbgdavidson · Wed Mar 30, 2016 2:29 pm

Quoting chrisair (Reply 67):
It's been happening a lot on the PMUS A319s that have been reconfigured. Happened recently on my PHX-YYC flight that went from 12F to 8F. Four people were sent to the back (I think they got MCE). But some were quite unhappy.

AA's new remedy for this is to only sell 8 seats on any flight involving an A319. This is the case for an itinerary I booked a few days ago that routes through CLT both ways so will almost certainly have a PMUS A319. The seatmap only showed 2 rows of F.

IPFreely · Thu Mar 31, 2016 12:27 am

Quoting CiC (Reply 66):
I'm too tall for coach (1,85m - but very loooong legs and a shorter body),....

Who else here has this problem?

In the U.S. you would be in the 85th percentile for adult male height. Which means that 15% of men and 4% of women have the same problem.

The reality is that this "problem" does not really exist. The idea that someone who stands a "towering" 1.85m tall cannot sit in coach is laughable. People much taller than this sit in coach every day without creating drama about it.

coolian2 · Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:31 am

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 70):
In the U.S. you would be in the 85th percentile for adult male height. Which means that 15% of men and 4% of women have the same problem.

The reality is that this "problem" does not really exist. The idea that someone who stands a "towering" 1.85m tall cannot sit in coach is laughable. People much taller than this sit in coach every day without creating drama about it.

You missed his point about long legs, short torso.

I'm just barely shorter but I carry a lot of height in my torso (to the point where unless it's a particular manufacturer I buy shirts a size too big so I'm not exposing my stomach and lower back all the time) so I can sit in an 31 inch pitch seat in relative comfort.

MesaFlyGuy · Thu Mar 31, 2016 5:40 pm

Quoting fbgdavidson (Reply 69):

You never know. Quite a few PMUS a319s also only have 8F.

IPFreely · Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:09 am

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 71):
You missed his point about long legs, short torso.

People who aren't tall talking about being tall because of their long legs is like me saying I'm not fat, I have big bones. If he wants to pay for F because it's more comfortable, that's fine. But the idea that he "cannot" sit in Y as if it's somehow physically impossible, or a high risk activity? Give me a break. People much taller than him, and with much longer legs than him, sit in Y every day without the drama.

What does he do if forced to take a regional flight on a small, one-class aircraft? Stomp his feet and demand a larger plane while people taller and bigger than him are boarding?

PGNCS · Fri Apr 01, 2016 8:15 pm

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 44):
Pilot drunk? No biggie...happens all the time and the rules are dumb.

Please show me the airline that does not take pilot intoxication seriously. That is certainly not the case with any US 121 airline, and in the rare instances it occurs it is dealt with swiftly and severely.

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 44):
As far as AA is concerned...Doug and his team are doing damage to the airline. They are moving in the wrong dirction and the next recession will really prove that, I believe.

You can feel that way, but from all outwards appearances they are doing a vastly better job than their predecessors.

Quoting winginit (Reply 45):
Quoting AEROFAN (Reply 31):There is no way I would accept a downgrade to coach if I have paid for business or first. No way in hell! The fact that I paid for business or first would indicate I have no interest in flying coach. The carrier would have to find another sucker to downgrade. Or else what exactly? You'd stomp your feet and hold your breath until you're blue in the face? Honestly.

Thanks, winginit. The agent of the airline would use whatever their internal rules were to govern the potential reseating of passengers. If a passenger became hostile, I'd expect a manager would be summoned, and if that passenger then became belligerent, security would be close behind. If a passenger feels they have been discriminated against, legal recourse is available, and if they feel like the airline acted inappropriately they can also contact the credit card they used to purchase the ticket with.

Quoting CiC (Reply 66):
If someone reclines the seat in a 32/34'' seat pitch it's impossible, and on 31'' I'm sitting like a frog occupying 25% seat width of the next seat... (happened once when Lufthansa made a plance change from the 744 with 32'' to the 346 with 28''... 7hrs in the galley!)

The galley does not belong to you. I am 2" taller than you and have normal legs. I grasp economy is uncomfortable, but I'm not buying that it's impossible.

Quoting ahmetdouas (Reply 68):
Relax dude I am 1.90 and its not nice, but you just live with it.

Quoting ahmetdouas (Reply 68):
But yes I try to do 34 inch pitch whenever I can.

Exactly. I am about 1.90m as well and it's not pleasant, but it's far from requiring me to be a contortionist. Like you, I am frequently willing to pay for a premium economy product, but if it doesn't work out I deal with it. By sitting in my seat. Like everybody else in coach.

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 70):
Quoting CiC (Reply 66):I'm too tall for coach (1,85m - but very loooong legs and a shorter body),....

Who else here has this problem?
In the U.S. you would be in the 85th percentile for adult male height. Which means that 15% of men and 4% of women have the same problem.

The reality is that this "problem" does not really exist. The idea that someone who stands a "towering" 1.85m tall cannot sit in coach is laughable. People much taller than this sit in coach every day without creating drama about it.

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 73):
Quoting coolian2 (Reply 71):You missed his point about long legs, short torso.
People who aren't tall talking about being tall because of their long legs is like me saying I'm not fat, I have big bones. If he wants to pay for F because it's more comfortable, that's fine. But the idea that he "cannot" sit in Y as if it's somehow physically impossible, or a high risk activity? Give me a break. People much taller than him, and with much longer legs than him, sit in Y every day without the drama.

What does he do if forced to take a regional flight on a small, one-class aircraft? Stomp his feet and demand a larger plane while people taller and bigger than him are boarding?

IP, I rarely agree with you, but am going to make an exception here: very well said. I doubt that there are genuinely very few people who physically cannot sit in a coach seat due to their height, though I do grasp there are plenty who will complain about it incessantly.

AA Pulling Pax From 1st Class With A And P Fares

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