tonyban
Topic Author
Posts: 260
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:55 am

Allowing First & Business Passengers To Disembark

Tue May 17, 2016 4:17 pm

Hi All

This is somewhat of a semi-gripe and forgive me if its been posted before.
First and business class passengers get to disembark an aircraft while the economy class passengers are held back, literally by a cabin crew member who will block the aisle-way until the forward cabins are empty.

On a recent flight from Manila to Tokyo on ANA, a business class passenger decided to take 10+ minutes to leave the aircraft, while all this time, us economy class passengers were not allowed to leave until the business class pundit left the aircraft. This led to some passengers voicing their displeasure to the crew who wouldn't budge until the passenger had disembarked.
This had me thinking, since the flight was completed, the airline has no right to prevent us from leaving the aircraft on our own will. Right or wrong ?

Am I just being overly sensitive or do others here also have an opinion this practice ?
 
sw733
Posts: 5861
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:19 am

RE: Allowing First & Business Passengers To Disemb

Tue May 17, 2016 4:21 pm

I think First and Business passengers should be given the opportunity to deplane first. If they choose not to or take an abnormally long time, they've lost that opportunity and the economy pax can deplane. Just my thought.
 
trex8
Posts: 5344
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: Allowing First & Business Passengers To Disemb

Tue May 17, 2016 4:38 pm

If this was a widebody it made no sense to make the entire Y cabin wait for this guy. If it was a narrowbody and he really took that long thats not appropriate for the FA to hold up deplaning that long either.
Yes they can instruct you to do what they want(within reason) , they are in charge till you are off the plane.
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2594
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: Allowing First & Business Passengers To Disemb

Tue May 17, 2016 4:43 pm

Quoting tonyban (Thread starter):
On a recent flight from Manila to Tokyo on ANA, a business class passenger decided to take 10+ minutes to leave the aircraft, while all this time, us economy class passengers were not allowed to leave until the business class pundit left the aircraft. This led to some passengers voicing their displeasure to the crew who wouldn't budge until the passenger had disembarked.
Quoting sw733 (Reply 1):
I think First and Business passengers should be given the opportunity to deplane first. If they choose not to or take an abnormally long time, they've lost that opportunity and the economy pax can deplane. Just my thought.

The procedure is fair as a streamlined travel experience is why the J passengers paid 5x the economy passengers fare and the airlines are right to ensure the benefit is delivered. However, if as sw733 mentions, they elect not to leave in an expedited manner, then they default on the option and the Y passengers should be allowed to proceed.


The key phase for me was 'on ANA.' The problem arises due to the Japanese tendency to follow procedures without context and not to take any initiative that diverges from the letter (rather than the spirit) of the process. I can give a number of examples from my significant time spent in Japan where I wished I had a hidden camera to record the unbelievably slavish adherence to procedure over adapting to an obvious situation. Japan delivers very good service, until pragmatism is required...
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
tonyban
Topic Author
Posts: 260
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:55 am

RE: Allowing First & Business Passengers To Disemb

Tue May 17, 2016 4:49 pm

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 3):
If this was a widebody it made no sense to make the entire Y cabin wait for this guy.

A 767. Both aisles were blocked for this one passenger. There were people yelling at the flight attendant in Japanese but I don't know what was being said.

Thanks for your response.
 
vjzalb
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:37 am

RE: Allowing First & Business Passengers To Disemb

Tue May 17, 2016 4:50 pm

I get the 'I paid more for my ticket so logically I am entitled to getting off the plane first'...fine, no major argument.

On a recent flight, AA MIA-PHL, A332, first class and economy was able to disembark at the same time with no incident. Both groups followed normal social courtesies and there were no issues. I guess it's what you make of it.
 
peanuts
Posts: 980
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:17 am

RE: Allowing First & Business Passengers To Disemb

Tue May 17, 2016 4:56 pm

There is one open door to exit (most of the time). For obvious reasons, there has to be some structure to it when you have people coming from multiple directions. So you let the front exit first. (They paid more for the seat, and it's a smaller cabin so why not).
If the front takes too long or isn't ready to deplane, the other side should get a turn. Most of the time that's what happens.
10+ minutes seems like a stretch. Was it really 10? I can see one minute, maybe 90 seconds tops. Did it feel like 10?
If so, this would need to be addressed. Deplaning in large groups is a safety issue, not a 10+ minute respect issue because you or your company have some bank.

Now, this is 2016. It's an age where we all feel so very important. We long for the pinnacle of the Maslow Theory (Self Actualization). I wouldn't be shocked if some group starts a lawsuit demanding change and equality in the deplaning process.  Big grin

[Edited 2016-05-17 10:10:29]
 
727LOVER
Posts: 8448
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 12:22 am

RE: Allowing First & Business Passengers To Disemb

Tue May 17, 2016 5:07 pm


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © R.A.Scholefield
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © R.A.Scholefield




I'm curious....in the old days when the entrance door was at the rear.....if First Class was upfront, did they deplane before Tourist Class?
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
vc10
Posts: 1412
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2001 4:13 am

RE: Allowing First & Business Passengers To Disemb

Tue May 17, 2016 5:13 pm

I'm curious....in the old days when the entrance door was at the rear.....if First Class was upfront, did they deplane before Tourist Class?
[/quote]

I think you will find that on those prop airliners the first class was at the back of the aircraft as it was furthest away from those noisy engines and propellers.

littlevc10
 
tonyban
Topic Author
Posts: 260
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:55 am

RE: Allowing First & Business Passengers To Disemb

Tue May 17, 2016 5:16 pm

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 7):
10+ minutes seems like a stretch. Was it really 10? I can see one minute, maybe 90 seconds tops. Did it feel like 10?
If so, this would need to be addressed. Deplaning in large groups is a safety issue, not a 10+ minute respect issue because you or your company have some bank.

It did feel like forever but I didn't actually time it. But as I mentioned, there were passengers voicing their displeasure due to the time taken.
Thanks for your response.
 
NickLAX
Posts: 254
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:48 pm

RE: Allowing First & Business Passengers To Disemb

Tue May 17, 2016 5:18 pm

I've seen this on ANA once as well - the purser DID however tell the other flight attendants to just open the curtains when clearly business class was empty except for one passenger. I think carriers that do this should have some level of training addressing this. On most other ANA flights I've had the curtains open right as the last biz row passenger is up
 
alasizon
Posts: 1986
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

RE: Allowing First & Business Passengers To Disemb

Tue May 17, 2016 5:22 pm

Inversely, I was sitting in 1A one day on a CR9 and had a passenger as soon as the door opened sprint from about 7 or 8 rows back and off the plane before anyone in First has even stood up.
Manager on Duty & Tower Planner
 
tonyban
Topic Author
Posts: 260
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:55 am

RE: Allowing First & Business Passengers To Disemb

Tue May 17, 2016 5:25 pm

Quoting NickLAX (Reply 10):

I've seen this on ANA once as well - the purser DID however tell the other flight attendants to just open the curtains when clearly business class was empty except for one passenger. I think carriers that do this should have some level of training addressing this. On most other ANA flights I've had the curtains open right as the last biz row passenger is up

Thank you ! So it must be a practice for airlines from this region.
 
User avatar
N14AZ
Posts: 3838
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:19 pm

RE: Allowing First & Business Passengers To Disemb

Tue May 17, 2016 5:27 pm

@ Alasizon: the same happens to me on domestic flights in China and VN frequently... (and no, of course, I don't have any problem with that)
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2594
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: Allowing First & Business Passengers To Disemb

Tue May 17, 2016 5:43 pm

Quoting tonyban (Reply 4):
Quoting ozglobal (Reply 3):
If this was a widebody it made no sense to make the entire Y cabin wait for this guy.

A 767. Both aisles were blocked for this one passenger. There were people yelling at the flight attendant in Japanese but I don't know what was being said.

Thanks for your response.

Careful, that's another poster you're quoting there...
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
tonyban
Topic Author
Posts: 260
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:55 am

RE: Allowing First & Business Passengers To Disemb

Tue May 17, 2016 6:03 pm

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 14):
Careful, that's another poster you're quoting there...

I don't know how that happened ! Apologies !
 
727LOVER
Posts: 8448
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 12:22 am

RE: Allowing First & Business Passengers To Disemb

Tue May 17, 2016 6:09 pm

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 14):
Careful, that's another poster you're quoting there...
Quoting ozglobal (Reply 14):
Careful, that's another poster you're quoting there...

...and you did it twice...you quoted me in reply 9...I didn't say THAT


  
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
tonyban
Topic Author
Posts: 260
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:55 am

RE: Allowing First & Business Passengers To Disemb

Tue May 17, 2016 6:16 pm

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 16):
...and you did it twice...you quoted me in reply 9...I didn't say THA

Oh my ! I'm not sure why that happened. Apologies again !
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Allowing First & Business Passengers To Disemb

Tue May 17, 2016 6:23 pm

Quoting sw733 (Reply 1):
I think First and Business passengers should be given the opportunity to deplane first. If they choose not to or take an abnormally long time, they've lost that opportunity and the economy pax can deplane. Just my thought.

   Holding people back just because business passengers want to linger in their seat for a little bit longer makes absolutely no sense. When I was in C last month, I wasn't in a particular rush to get off the plane, and I had absolutely no problem with Y pax walking past me as I was packing up my stuff. In fact I preferred it that way, as I would have felt really bad if I was delaying them from being able to get off.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
MOW
Posts: 135
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:41 am

RE: Allowing First & Business Passengers To Disemb

Tue May 17, 2016 6:34 pm

SU strictly enforces this rule on its flights. FAs literally block the aisle(s) and do not let the coach passengers deplane until the very last business class passenger has left and the explicit approval from the purser is obtained.
The procedure seems to be redundant - when leaving the aircraft passengers usually demonstrate some etiquette by letting seated in front collect their carry-on luggage and proceed first.
The procedure is also not logical - why there is no such separation at the time of boarding?
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12583
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

RE: Allowing First & Business Passengers To Disemb

Tue May 17, 2016 7:31 pm

Quoting tonyban (Thread starter):
This had me thinking, since the flight was completed, the airline has no right to prevent us from leaving the aircraft on our own will.

Says who? Cite the law/regulation that states that.
Barring such, then they most certainly do.

And it makes way more sense for people who've paid a multiple of what steerage pax have, to get priority in whatever they do..... I mean, the most universal/fundamental rule of all: you get what you pay for.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
apfpilot
Posts: 742
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:19 pm

RE: Allowing First & Business Passengers To Disemb

Tue May 17, 2016 7:35 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 20):
Says who? Cite the law/regulation that states that.
Barring such, then they most certainly do.

How about you cite the law that says they can, because in the absence of a law that says they can, they can't.
Opinions are my own and do not reflect an endorsement or position of my employer.
 
tonyban
Topic Author
Posts: 260
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:55 am

RE: Allowing First & Business Passengers To Disemb

Tue May 17, 2016 7:36 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 20):
Says who? Cite the law/regulation that states that.
Barring such, then they most certainly do.

Just an opinion. Apology if I offended.
 
Yflyer
Posts: 1695
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:05 am

RE: Allowing First & Business Passengers To Disemb

Tue May 17, 2016 7:45 pm

Quoting Alasizon (Reply 11):
Inversely, I was sitting in 1A one day on a CR9 and had a passenger as soon as the door opened sprint from about 7 or 8 rows back and off the plane before anyone in First has even stood up.

Must have really needed to pee.  
 
OB1504
Posts: 3702
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:10 am

RE: Allowing First & Business Passengers To Disemb

Tue May 17, 2016 8:46 pm

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 21):
How about you cite the law that says they can, because in the absence of a law that says they can, they can't.

  

I'm unaware of any regulation that states that an airline can prevent a passenger from deplaning at the completion of a flight when the aircraft is parked, a jet bridge is connected, and the door is open.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12583
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

RE: Allowing First & Business Passengers To Disemb

Tue May 17, 2016 9:09 pm

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 21):
because in the absence of a law that says they can, they can't.

....since when?
The answer is of course "never," but I'll be quite interested to hear your legal theory behind this.

Quoting tonyban (Reply 22):
Just an opinion. Apology if I offended.

Don't apologize. Screw that, get in there and slug out your opinion!  
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
ckfred
Posts: 5155
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

RE: Allowing First & Business Passengers To Disemb

Tue May 17, 2016 9:34 pm

I've flown on AA, in F on a 757, when the jet bridge was extended to L2. There was an F/A holding the Y passengers until everyone in F had deplaned. But, from what I saw, the F passengers all exited in a timely manner.
 
airzona11
Posts: 1555
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:44 am

RE: Allowing First & Business Passengers To Disemb

Tue May 17, 2016 9:44 pm

If one guy is being a shmuck, then by all means people should be allowed to exit. That being said, if the airlines policy is that all premium cabin disembark first, that is the policy.

Airline employees are reasonable compassionate people and airlines are in the customer service business (this is debatable I know) so I am suspect or would take my business elsewhere from airlines that arbitrarily hassled us common flyers in the back.
 
Capt.Fantastic
Posts: 855
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 1999 4:01 am

RE: Allowing First & Business Passengers To Disemb

Tue May 17, 2016 10:47 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 20):

Says who? Cite the law/regulation that states that

Let's do it the other way. Could you provide a law/regulation that gives F/A the authority to physically block passengers from deplaning, once the door is open and the flight is over?
 
peanuts
Posts: 980
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:17 am

RE: Allowing First & Business Passengers To Disemb

Tue May 17, 2016 11:00 pm

Quoting Capt.Fantastic (Reply 28):

Well, considering passengers have to follow crew instructions, per FAA directive.... 
 
User avatar
ua900
Posts: 1530
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:14 am

RE: Allowing First & Business Passengers To Disemb

Tue May 17, 2016 11:36 pm

Quoting tonyban (Thread starter):
First and business class passengers get to disembark an aircraft while the economy class passengers are held back, literally by a cabin crew member who will block the aisle-way until the forward cabins are empty.

Yes, and there's no other way but to physically block them. They outnumber F and J passengers.

Quoting tonyban (Thread starter):
On a recent flight from Manila to Tokyo on ANA, a business class passenger decided to take 10+ minutes to leave the aircraft, while all this time, us economy class passengers were not allowed to leave until the business class pundit left the aircraft. This led to some passengers voicing their displeasure to the crew who wouldn't budge until the passenger had disembarked.

Most airlines will allow all F/J passengers to disembark first *provided* they are actively in the process of deplaning. They'll consider old people and people with children but if someone who is able bodied in just hanging around the premium cabin they'll release the floodgates in Y.

Quoting tonyban (Thread starter):
This had me thinking, since the flight was completed, the airline has no right to prevent us from leaving the aircraft on our own will. Right or wrong ?

Technically you are required to follow crew member instructions. NH could have handled this much better.

Quoting tonyban (Thread starter):
Am I just being overly sensitive or do others here also have an opinion this practice ?

Generally F/J passengers should deplane first, and the airline should facilitate that. Many airports still don't have immigration / custom fast lanes reserved for C / J or unfavorable passport / region based lanes on at least one side of a given trip.

Quoting MOW (Reply 19):
The procedure is also not logical - why there is no such separation at the time of boarding?

Many carriers have priority boarding as well. I personally don't use it much unless it's an overhead issue (domestic U.S. flights where Y pax stuff their rollaboards in dom F cabin and F/As often don't prevent that effectively), preferring to spend less time on the plane and more time drinking away in the lounge. Deplaning is mostly about getting through immigration / customs / luggage first, assuming the baggage handlers abide by priority tags, another crap shot.

Quoting Alasizon (Reply 11):
Inversely, I was sitting in 1A one day on a CR9 and had a passenger as soon as the door opened sprint from about 7 or 8 rows back and off the plane before anyone in First has even stood up.

That's pretty much every UA 764 flight J cabin lavs taken by someone in Y+ in spite of the physical rope between cabins and the 738s without Y lavs between row 5 and 8, lots of Y+ folks making their way up to dom F.
2018: AMS | ARN | CDG | DEN | DFW | EWR | FRA | GUM | HAM | HKG | HNL | IAH | LAX | MIA | MUC | ORD | RSW | SAL | SFO | SIN | TLV | TXL | VIE | ZRH
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Allowing First & Business Passengers To Disemb

Wed May 18, 2016 3:23 am

Quoting vc10 (Reply 8):
I'm curious....in the old days when the entrance door was at the rear.....if First Class was upfront, did they deplane before Tourist Class?


As already mentioned, on propeller types with more than one class of service, first class was always at the rear where it was the quietest. It moved to the front on jets for the same reason.

Many prop types of course operated as all-F class originally. In that case I suppose the seats at the rear were most in demand.
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4121
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

RE: Allowing First & Business Passengers To Disemb

Wed May 18, 2016 8:41 am

Quoting Alasizon (Reply 11):
Inversely, I was sitting in 1A one day on a CR9 and had a passenger as soon as the door opened sprint from about 7 or 8 rows back and off the plane before anyone in First has even stood up.
Quoting Mir (Reply 18):
Holding people back just because business passengers want to linger in their seat for a little bit longer makes absolutely no sense.

When passengers are getting off through L1 I do appreciate not being shoved out of the way by raging bulls rushing to be first to the slaughterhouse. When L2 is in use, I see no reason why anybody should wait for anyone. F/As can block coach passengers to let premium passengers who are ready go out first, but that's about it.

If I take more time, my sense of self-importance won't be hurt because a few passengers from coach got through L2 before I did.
The Trump/Johnson special relationship: Special people on both sides of the Atlantic
 
cvg2lga
Posts: 446
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:48 am

RE: Allowing First & Business Passengers To Disemb

Wed May 18, 2016 5:54 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 20):

And it makes way more sense for people who've paid a multiple of what steerage pax have, to get priority in whatever they do..... I mean, the most universal/fundamental rule of all: you get what you pay for.

How much did you pay for that high horse of yours?

Airlines create their own enplaning/deplaning procedures. If that's ANA's policy, as maddening as it would be, so be it. Doesn't make sense to me to hold and entire Y class just for one (or a few even) folks in the forward cabins straggling behind to disembark. But it would if I were an FA for an airline that expected such a policy to be enforced.

Tchau

DA-
They don't call em' emergencies anymore. They call em' Patronies.
 
Aeroflot001
Posts: 357
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:43 am

RE: Allowing First & Business Passengers To Disemb

Wed May 18, 2016 6:04 pm

In my experience AA seems to handle this in a pragmatic way. On one occasion for example I flew F MIA-EZE, it was a 772 so we deplaned via 2L. J and F were allowed to deplane first and most passengers did so, the Y passengers immediately followed. One or two other passengers and myself took a few extra minutes (5-6) gathering our things. During that time Y passengers were deplaning via both aisles. Once we got up and approached 2L the flight attendant blocked the aisle for a moment to allow us off which took about 5 seconds. Pragmatism at its finest.
 
User avatar
readytotaxi
Posts: 6708
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:09 am

RE: Allowing First & Business Passengers To Disemb

Tue May 24, 2016 3:31 pm

Going back years my first flight with CO on arrival in the US the Y passengers where held back until BusinessFirst was empty, sure made an impression on me and speeded up going through CBP.
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: IADCA, KBUF and 9 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos