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152841
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Donald Trump 757 - Exit Outlines

Wed Aug 10, 2016 12:02 pm

While reviewing photos of Donald Trump's 757 I noticed it's exits are not outlined. Donald Trump's livery is similar to the US Airways livery of the early 2000; a dark blue or black crown followed by a red strip (or series of stripes) and a gray or white belly.

US Airways 757s exits are clearly outlined in a contrasting color as shown in this photo;
https://www.airliners.net/photo/US-Airways/Boeing-757-225/1291254

Donald Trump's 757 exits are clearly not outlined as shown in this photo;
https://www.airliners.net/photo/Trump/Boeing-757-2J4/3878881

Isn't this a clear violation of 14 CFR 25.811 (f)? This FAR specifically states;
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2002-title14-vol1/xml/CFR-2002-title14-vol1-sec25-811.xml
(f) Each emergency exit that is required to be openable from the outside, and its means of opening, must be marked on the outside of the airplane. In addition, the following apply:
(1) The outside marking for each passenger emergency exit in the side of the fuselage must include a 2-inch colored band outlining the exit.
(2) Each outside marking including the band, must have color contrast to be readily distinguishable from the surrounding fuselage surface...

It appears disabled exits are exempt from 14 CFR 25.811 (f) however none of the port side or starboard side exits on Donald Trump's 757 are outlined.
What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. - Ronald Reagan
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Donald Trump 757 - Exit Outlines

Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:22 pm

IIRC, outlined exits are only a requirement for airliners, not private aircraft.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Donald Trump 757 - Exit Outlines

Wed Aug 10, 2016 5:55 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
IIRC, outlined exits are only a requirement for airliners, not private aircraft.

This is correct. Trump's plane is most likely flown under Part 91, which is what most Cessnas and Pipers fly under. The main requirement is that it is not carrying people or cargo for hire. Airliners usually fly under Part 121, which deals with scheduled passenger service. It is how the plane is used, not its design, which controls what rules apply to it. There are huge differences; for instance in Part 121 all manufacturers' recommendations essentially have the force of law-under Part 91 they are only advisory unless they get elevated to an AD. ADs apply to all planes, regardless of their use, but service bulletins and other manufacturers' recommendations are only mandatory on planes used commercially. Part 135 applies to charter services and I believe air freight; maintenance requirements are essentially the same as 121. Planes used commercially under Part 91 (rentals and other commercial uses) are subject to stricter maintenance requirements than privately owned and used aircraft, but Trump's plane again does not qualify. His plane, since he is not using it for any commercial purpose (using it for his own businesses does not count, nor does using it in his own campaign) is only subject to the same requirements as my 182 when I owned it. He does not have to adhere to any time limits on any part unless it is subject to an AD; a mechanic merely has to certify it is airworthy. It does have to pass an annual inspection, however, and Boeing will establish the standards which must be followed.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
152841
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Re: Donald Trump 757 - Exit Outlines

Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:04 pm

I wondered the same thing. But the Boeing 757 is certified to the same FAR Part 25 regulations whether it is operated for commercial use or for business (personal) use. The airplane certification basis, as viewed on the TCDS, is not connected to the operational basis (Part 91 or Part 121) as far as I know.
What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. - Ronald Reagan
 
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TZTriStar500
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Re: Donald Trump 757 - Exit Outlines

Thu Aug 11, 2016 2:57 am

SEPilot wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
IIRC, outlined exits are only a requirement for airliners, not private aircraft.

This is correct. Trump's plane is most likely flown under Part 91, which is what most Cessnas and Pipers fly under. The main requirement is that it is not carrying people or cargo for hire. Airliners usually fly under Part 121, which deals with scheduled passenger service. It is how the plane is used, not its design, which controls what rules apply to it. There are huge differences; for instance in Part 121 all manufacturers' recommendations essentially have the force of law-under Part 91 they are only advisory unless they get elevated to an AD. ADs apply to all planes, regardless of their use, but service bulletins and other manufacturers' recommendations are only mandatory on planes used commercially. Part 135 applies to charter services and I believe air freight; maintenance requirements are essentially the same as 121. Planes used commercially under Part 91 (rentals and other commercial uses) are subject to stricter maintenance requirements than privately owned and used aircraft, but Trump's plane again does not qualify. His plane, since he is not using it for any commercial purpose (using it for his own businesses does not count, nor does using it in his own campaign) is only subject to the same requirements as my 182 when I owned it. He does not have to adhere to any time limits on any part unless it is subject to an AD; a mechanic merely has to certify it is airworthy. It does have to pass an annual inspection, however, and Boeing will establish the standards which must be followed.


This is an interesting discussion, but this is not correct in general. As a baseline, 14 CFR 25 is a build standard applicable to ALL transport category aircraft certified or modified under it regardless of how they are operated. However, there are many ways to comply with or obtain Exemptions, Special Conditions, etc. One of the main ones for certifying transport category aircraft for private use is SFAR 109 which provides some relief with restrictions to many 14 CFR 25 requirements. Generally, Part 121 provides additional requirements on top of Part 25 to allow commercial operations

While the exit markings per 25.811(f) on N757AF are the topic, I have found no direct mention of them in SFAR 109 so I suspect the STC holder for the interior modifications may have used SFAR 109 as a basis for an exemption to the markings which would be in the certification plan. SFAR 109 allows deactivation of exits altogether as the total passenger load is limited to 60 with certain passenger seat to exit requirements and an evacuation analysis. It is still unusual as most BBJs, ACJs, etc. do have door markings for those not deactivated and N757AF has none at all.

As to operating requirements, yes these type of aircraft are operated under Part 91 not for hire, but 91.409(e) specifies that they need a lot more than an annual inspection and is absolutely not the same as a Cessna 182. This is a transport category aircraft that has Airworthiness Limitations and Certification Maintenance and MRB requirements as part of the Boeing issued MPD that is FAA approved and parts of its certification under Part 25. These are required to be complied with and only non AL, CMR, or MRB tasks can be altered with justification. This aircraft complies to the same time limits regardless of how its operated.

Lastly, Service Bulletins are never mandatory unless required by an AD, again regardless of operating rules.
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chornedsnorkack
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Re: Donald Trump 757 - Exit Outlines

Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:10 pm

What shall happen to the applicable regulations when, on 20th of January 2017, the said 757 turns into Executive One?
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: Donald Trump 757 - Exit Outlines

Thu Aug 11, 2016 1:08 pm

chornedsnorkack wrote:
What shall happen to the applicable regulations when, on 20th of January 2017, the said 757 turns into Executive One?

Nothing. Well unless they try to charge President Hillary Clinton for flying in it, in which case they'd need to be operating under Part 135.

V/F
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BravoOne
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Re: Donald Trump 757 - Exit Outlines

Thu Aug 11, 2016 1:31 pm

SEPilot wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
IIRC, outlined exits are only a requirement for airliners, not private aircraft.

This is correct. Trump's plane is most likely flown under Part 91, which is what most Cessnas and Pipers fly under. The main requirement is that it is not carrying people or cargo for hire. Airliners usually fly under Part 121, which deals with scheduled passenger service. It is how the plane is used, not its design, which controls what rules apply to it. There are huge differences; for instance in Part 121 all manufacturers' recommendations essentially have the force of law-under Part 91 they are only advisory unless they get elevated to an AD. ADs apply to all planes, regardless of their use, but service bulletins and other manufacturers' recommendations are only mandatory on planes used commercially. Part 135 applies to charter services and I believe air freight; maintenance requirements are essentially the same as 121. Planes used commercially under Part 91 (rentals and other commercial uses) are subject to stricter maintenance requirements than privately owned and used aircraft, but Trump's plane again does not qualify. His plane, since he is not using it for any commercial purpose (using it for his own businesses does not count, nor does using it in his own campaign) is only subject to the same requirements as my 182 when I owned it. He does not have to adhere to any time limits on any part unless it is subject to an AD; a mechanic merely has to certify it is airworthy. It does have to pass an annual inspection, however, and Boeing will establish the standards which must be followed.



Actually this airplane is flown under Part 125m not 91.
 
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TZTriStar500
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Re: Donald Trump 757 - Exit Outlines

Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:52 pm

BravoOne wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
IIRC, outlined exits are only a requirement for airliners, not private aircraft.

This is correct. Trump's plane is most likely flown under Part 91, which is what most Cessnas and Pipers fly under. The main requirement is that it is not carrying people or cargo for hire. Airliners usually fly under Part 121, which deals with scheduled passenger service. It is how the plane is used, not its design, which controls what rules apply to it. There are huge differences; for instance in Part 121 all manufacturers' recommendations essentially have the force of law-under Part 91 they are only advisory unless they get elevated to an AD. ADs apply to all planes, regardless of their use, but service bulletins and other manufacturers' recommendations are only mandatory on planes used commercially. Part 135 applies to charter services and I believe air freight; maintenance requirements are essentially the same as 121. Planes used commercially under Part 91 (rentals and other commercial uses) are subject to stricter maintenance requirements than privately owned and used aircraft, but Trump's plane again does not qualify. His plane, since he is not using it for any commercial purpose (using it for his own businesses does not count, nor does using it in his own campaign) is only subject to the same requirements as my 182 when I owned it. He does not have to adhere to any time limits on any part unless it is subject to an AD; a mechanic merely has to certify it is airworthy. It does have to pass an annual inspection, however, and Boeing will establish the standards which must be followed.



Actually this airplane is flown under Part 125m not 91.


Thanks for that clarification. I was unsure of where the FAA fell on large transport private ops and would think some if not all of the other similar types on the US registration are 125 just due to aircraft size. I know 125 requires obtaining an operating certificate and believe 91 does not.
35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Donald Trump 757 - Exit Outlines

Thu Aug 11, 2016 4:30 pm

There are some operators that are under Part 125, with a Part 91, LODA, or Letter of Deviation Authority. I doubt that the N757AF is one of them. The FAA keeps saying that they are reviewing the Part 125 regs with an eye to tightening them up, but so far not much has happened. The Trump 757 is a very nice airplane but no where worth the 100 million he has claimed in the past. Like everything he says, you need to take it with a grain of salt:)
 
chornedsnorkack
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Re: Donald Trump 757 - Exit Outlines

Thu Aug 11, 2016 5:47 pm

BravoOne wrote:
The Trump 757 is a very nice airplane but no where worth the 100 million he has claimed in the past.

How would you compute its cost?
A 737-900ER airliner costs 102 millions. That´s just 737, and just airliner.
 
chornedsnorkack
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Re: Donald Trump 757 - Exit Outlines

Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:11 pm

chornedsnorkack wrote:
How would you compute its cost?

Found a decent review:
http://www.bjtonline.com/business-jet-n ... ings-757-0
 
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akiss20
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Re: Donald Trump 757 - Exit Outlines

Thu Aug 11, 2016 9:35 pm

chornedsnorkack wrote:
chornedsnorkack wrote:
How would you compute its cost?

Found a decent review:
http://www.bjtonline.com/business-jet-n ... ings-757-0

So he is only a factor of 3-4 off...
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TZTriStar500
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Re: Donald Trump 757 - Exit Outlines

Fri Aug 12, 2016 1:40 am

I question Associated's pricing as they are not going to share exactly what they charge for a VIP interior. A refurbishment of an existing interior is much cheaper, but a completely new VVIP interior, and few are not opulent, can easily run in the multi 10s of millions. The worth of the aircraft itself (used 757) would be small comparatively.
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BravoOne
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Re: Donald Trump 757 - Exit Outlines

Fri Aug 12, 2016 1:32 pm

The value is based on what you can sell it for, This aircraft was a fairly low time airframe and it was done by Associated in Dallas. The description below sounds very my like N757AF:
Dallas's Associated Air Center has completed 10 of the approximately 17 VIP 757s in service. In 1996, Associated completed a 757 for a private client that featured a 43-passenger layout with five additional cabin crew seats; a segregated crew rest, lav and galley area; a forward VIP suite with a queen bed, work area and lav; a forward salon with massive entertainment monitor; a conference room; a dining area; and an aft business-class compartment with 12 sleeper seats, two lavs and another galley. Four bathrooms: in my county you get taxed extra for that.

I know that that Trump paid less than 30M for the airplane and the re-ragged it, put winglets on it along with some avionics upgrades. The interior remains pretty much the same as when Associated delivered it to Paul Allen. There are nicer 757 for sale and at significantly higher numbers and they are not selling. The market is what it is at any one time.
 
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TZTriStar500
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Re: Donald Trump 757 - Exit Outlines

Sat Aug 13, 2016 4:46 am

I was curious if it was a re-rag or new interior so his total cost should have been less than 50M, not 100M as he apparently claimed.
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BravoOne
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Re: Donald Trump 757 - Exit Outlines

Sat Aug 13, 2016 2:45 pm

They just recovered the seats, carpets and changed the audio visual system. May have changed something in the galleys? The winglets, Pegasus FMC along with IS&S appear to have been added. Probably less than 10M at best. Do not know what finally did with the aux tanks and SFAR88, but I don't think he reinstalled them as his mission requirements are pretty light. The airplane is way under 50M for sure. Probably under 35M based on his negotiating abilities:)
 
rcair1
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Re: Donald Trump 757 - Exit Outlines

Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:49 pm

SEPilot wrote:
IIRC, outlined exits are only a requirement for airliners, not private aircraft.

This is correct. Trump's plane is most likely flown under Part 91, which is what most Cessnas and Pipers fly under.

While completely true - this just cracked me up - comparing a 757 to a Cessna and Piper....
Last edited by rcair1 on Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
rcair1
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Donald Trump 757 - Exit Outlines

Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:58 pm

rcair1 wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
IIRC, outlined exits are only a requirement for airliners, not private aircraft.

This is correct. Trump's plane is most likely flown under Part 91, which is what most Cessnas and Pipers fly under.

While completely true - this just cracked me up - comparing a 757 to a Cessna and Piper....[/quote]
Well, it's what you use it for, not what it was designed for. The big difference is that Trump can not go for the $100 hamburger; it would be the $10,000 hamburger.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler

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