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CXfirst
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Impact of 1.5ton of moving cargo on A320.

Sun Nov 06, 2016 5:34 am

Hi, a bit of a specific question.

Recently, I've started working on the ground handling side of AirAsia Indonesia operations. Now, I've worked with a few different airlines with bulk loaded A320 compartments, and there has always been a webbing between compartment 3 and 4 (among other places), but with AirAsia, that webbing is almost always gone, and in the few aircraft with that webbing still there, it is rarely done up on arrival. It is not uncommon to see the webbing between compartments 4 and 5 loose either.

Now, a very common load plan is to basically fill up compartment 3, so it is not uncommon to have more than 1.5tons in 3, while 4 and 5 are empty. In a normal flight, there won't be much shifting of baggage, other than perhaps a couple bags toppling into compartment 4.

Looking at the QZ8501 crash. They went into a stall. And, if they were at any point very nose up oriented, I could imagine a very large portion of this baggage load shifting to compartment 4 or even 5 (not saying this happened on that flight). Now, if that had been the case, and if the pilots had managed to recover from the stall, how detrimental would such a shift be to safely landing the aircraft?

-CXfirst
 
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77west
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Re: Impact of 1.5ton of moving cargo on A320.

Sun Nov 06, 2016 9:03 am

This is what happens when cargo shifts: http://youtu.be/-MB9JDBe4wA?t=9
 
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zeke
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Re: Impact of 1.5ton of moving cargo on A320.

Sun Nov 06, 2016 10:16 am

I don't have the load plans memorised but have a look at the zones to see if it's all within the same zone. Moving 15-20 pax in the same zone have negligible effect. In terms of stab trim as long as it's within the green band it's okay.
 
greg85
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Re: Impact of 1.5ton of moving cargo on A320.

Sun Nov 06, 2016 11:45 am

It depends on what the centre of gravity is for any given flight. If the aircraft already had a rearward C of G, and then some baggage shifted rearward, you could end up out of limits. Typically an A320s payload could be around 15 tonnes. So if a full 1.5 tonnes moved, I think you could say it's a significant amount.
 
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HAWK21M
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Re: Impact of 1.5ton of moving cargo on A320.

Sun Nov 06, 2016 1:27 pm

It depends on the CG position & the load distribution of that particular flight.
Missing netting between compartments need to be documented and rectified at the first opportunity, until then
there would be loading restrictions on that area.
1.5T is a lot of weight & depending on the length of shift & phase of flight could be a concern.
Lets put it this way.... there is no 99% safe in Aviation....its 100% or NOT SAFE..
 
Woodreau
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Re: Impact of 1.5ton of moving cargo on A320.

Sun Nov 06, 2016 3:54 pm

If there are cargo nets missing I would bring them up to notice of the flight crew. It is part of required equipment and appropriate procedures need to be followed to document them in the aircraft log.

From reading your post it appears there is a cultural issue with one airline with respect to how they utilize their cargo nets or not....
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Impact of 1.5ton of moving cargo on A320.

Sun Nov 06, 2016 11:20 pm

This is very scary. Is this really happening?
 
69bug
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Re: Impact of 1.5ton of moving cargo on A320.

Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:45 am

sad to say it happens in a lot of case,

Even bigger jets like the 747 have nets in the 'bulk' compartment (compt 5) which have 'zones' separated by nets. You'll usually find some of the nets have catches which don't 'catch'.

Most operators seem to turn a blind eye to this. The reason I say this is that the nets just inside the hold door is usually in good shape, better than the ones that split the hold into zones. This net (just inside the door) is crucial, if anything moves and rests against it you'll have a big job getting the door open... hence it needs to be in A1 shape.

Most time you'd be ok but this will be one of the holes in the cheese. A tail-heavy aircraft, just after take-off..and the load-shift rearwards....the elevator may not be able to recover in time. A load shift at rotation would probably result in a tail-strike at the very least,

Anil
 
WIederling
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Re: Impact of 1.5ton of moving cargo on A320.

Mon Nov 07, 2016 8:19 am

The Bagram crash was due to rather massive single items ( some MRAP ) "changing places".
see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_ ... estigation

At least one armored vehicle had come loose and rolled backwards against the airplane's rear bulkhead, damaging the bulkhead. This also crippled key hydraulic systems and damaged the horizontal stabilizer components, which rendered the airplane uncontrollable.


GC change and the incurred damage may independently have been sufficient to cause the crash.
 
CXfirst
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Re: Impact of 1.5ton of moving cargo on A320.

Mon Nov 07, 2016 8:53 am

Having had a better look at the ground ops manual. There is no indication of a need for webbing between compartments, apart from between 4 and 5. Webbing by doors is however included (and not an issue). There is even a photo in the manual of compartments 3 and 4, and the webbing is not present.

I just find it very surprising that this has been allowed, especially as all other airlines I've worked with have the webbing in question.

-CXfirst
 
Scinfaxi
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Re: Impact of 1.5ton of moving cargo on A320.

Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:09 am

I dispatched a charter P7 A320 with bag split.... .1/559.3/1397.4/517....advised Captain that there was no hold net between compartment 3 and 4. (There was just a net between 4 and 5 and the door net obviously) and he said it wasn't normal but can be dispatched like that. It came back the following week with a net in though :D
 
trijetsonly
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Re: Impact of 1.5ton of moving cargo on A320.

Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:10 pm

Just did some calculation. With a nicely filled A320 (68t TOW), shifting 1,5t from Cpt 3 to Cpt 4 will shift the CG ~1,7%MAC to the aft.
 
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CARST
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Re: Impact of 1.5ton of moving cargo on A320.

Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:46 pm

trijetsonly wrote:
Just did some calculation. With a nicely filled A320 (68t TOW), shifting 1,5t from Cpt 3 to Cpt 4 will shift the CG ~1,7%MAC to the aft.


Is that a lot? Would you feel it as a pilot, once the bags start moving back on their own while climbing out? Or is it totally neglectable?
 
trijetsonly
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Re: Impact of 1.5ton of moving cargo on A320.

Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:36 pm

CARST wrote:
trijetsonly wrote:
Just did some calculation. With a nicely filled A320 (68t TOW), shifting 1,5t from Cpt 3 to Cpt 4 will shift the CG ~1,7%MAC to the aft.


Is that a lot? Would you feel it as a pilot, once the bags start moving back on their own while climbing out? Or is it totally neglectable?


It is not neglectable at all. Usually operations at that weight are allowed somewhere between 18% and 39%. Then there is a safety margin of ~2% to cover things like passengers who change seats before takeoff and uncertainty of the exact position of cargo in the compartment. With most of the safety margin gone by the shifting cargo there is not enough safety margin left.
On a legal point of view, this is a major incident. How much this may influence the behavior of the aircraft in flight, I can't say. But most probably it won't crash.

Anyway, in fact it is possible, that this is covered by the airline with their safety margin increased to maybe 4%. In that case, the shifting cargo is covered and it's no problem at all and operation is legal and covered. The safety margin, which is the difference between operational and certified limits, is defined by every airline on their own.
 
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CrimsonNL
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Re: Impact of 1.5ton of moving cargo on A320.

Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:03 am

I do loadcontrol for a variety of A320 operators, and there are several variations of netting out there. A lot of airlines divide the aft hold as CPT 3/4 and have a total of 3 divider nets, so leaving 2 positions per compartment. Others have as mentioned no net between 3 and 4 which I also find quite strange. I've never seen no netting between 4/5 however.

At one point I've dealt with an A320, it might have been Jordan Aviation but I'm unsure, which just had 3/4 designated as CPT 4, so there weren't any nets whatsoever as CPT 3 "didn't exist".

Martijn
 
wn676
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Re: Impact of 1.5ton of moving cargo on A320.

Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:35 pm

CXfirst wrote:
Having had a better look at the ground ops manual. There is no indication of a need for webbing between compartments, apart from between 4 and 5. Webbing by doors is however included (and not an issue). There is even a photo in the manual of compartments 3 and 4, and the webbing is not present.

I just find it very surprising that this has been allowed, especially as all other airlines I've worked with have the webbing in question.

-CXfirst


At an airline I worked for, they required divider nets on the 320s between sections 12/13, 31/32, and 42/51, plus the door nets, which I think is pretty standard. I have seen some airlines that require even more divider nets in each compartment - basically between each section - but I'm surprised to hear they don't do this at your airline. Then again, if it's in their ops specs I suppose it works for them. Are those aircraft often flying with the compartments bulked out?

For us, 3/4 were designated as aft compartment, and 5 was designated as aft bulk (unless they lacked the bulk door, in which case 3/4/5 became aft). I always thought it was funny that, if you had a plane without the bulk door and were loading the aft compartment, you could stack bags anywhere in 3, 4, and 5...as long as the nets were put up. I suppose the bigger picture was to prevent load shifts, even though it felt like we were given quite a lot of latitude in distributing the weight.
 
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HAWK21M
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Re: Impact of 1.5ton of moving cargo on A320.

Sat Nov 26, 2016 4:12 pm

Woodreau wrote:
If there are cargo nets missing I would bring them up to notice of the flight crew. ....


Why Flight crew...shouldn't it be reported to Maintenance.
 
Woodreau
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Re: Impact of 1.5ton of moving cargo on A320.

Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:04 pm

HAWK21M wrote:
Woodreau wrote:
If there are cargo nets missing I would bring them up to notice of the flight crew. ....


Why Flight crew...shouldn't it be reported to Maintenance.


Either one will work.

Since the ramper is actively working the flight - loading and noticing that this particular airplane's cargo nets are never installed, he just needs to notify the lead ramper, who will contact the flight crew. I don't think rampers will contact maintenance directly.
The flight crew will make an entry in the aircraft's maintenance log and call maintenance. Since the flight crew are not in the practice of walking through the cargo compartments and noting that everything in the cargo comparment is in full operational readiness.
 
TurnaroudUK
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Re: Impact of 1.5ton of moving cargo on A320.

Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:00 am

All netting should be done up, it is a legal requirement when signing the LIR and when passing the checks through to the flight deck. The hold should be made Inop if these are not in place
 
CXfirst
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Re: Impact of 1.5ton of moving cargo on A320.

Fri Dec 09, 2016 8:46 am

TurnaroudUK wrote:
All netting should be done up, it is a legal requirement when signing the LIR and when passing the checks through to the flight deck. The hold should be made Inop if these are not in place


I do understand this. However, the airlines ground handling manuals only specifies the hold door webbing and the webbing between compartments 4 and 5 (aft and bulk). There is no internal webbing in compartment one or any between 3 or 4. Some of the aircraft flying around the network have these webbings, put it is not a part of the manual.

The reason I started asking the question here is that in every other bulk loaded aircraft I have worked on, there has been webbing between the compartments. Don't get me wrong, in the 737-800 compartments 2-1 and 3-1 quite long and cargo could shift quite a distance, but these compartments are still considered the one compartment in weight and balance calculations. Yet, in this latest aircraft, the only thing keeping bags from moving from compartment 3 to 4 is inertia!
 
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CrimsonNL
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Re: Impact of 1.5ton of moving cargo on A320.

Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:00 pm

CXfirst wrote:
The reason I started asking the question here is that in every other bulk loaded aircraft I have worked on, there has been webbing between the compartments. Don't get me wrong, in the 737-800 compartments 2-1 and 3-1 quite long and cargo could shift quite a distance, but these compartments are still considered the one compartment in weight and balance calculations.

.
That's an interesting point, one I hadn't really thought about. Indeed on the 738 and 739 the bags are able to slide a very long distance without influencing the CG (on paper at least). I suppose the distance may be similar to that on the 320.

Martijn
 
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HAWK21M
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Re: Impact of 1.5ton of moving cargo on A320.

Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:41 pm

Woodreau wrote:
HAWK21M wrote:
Woodreau wrote:
If there are cargo nets missing I would bring them up to notice of the flight crew. ....


Why Flight crew...shouldn't it be reported to Maintenance.


Either one will work.

Since the ramper is actively working the flight - loading and noticing that this particular airplane's cargo nets are never installed, he just needs to notify the lead ramper, who will contact the flight crew. I don't think rampers will contact maintenance directly.
The flight crew will make an entry in the aircraft's maintenance log and call maintenance. Since the flight crew are not in the practice of walking through the cargo compartments and noting that everything in the cargo comparment is in full operational readiness.


Maybe it works different out here....there are no rampers handling mx function....So maintenance deals with Line to major including snag rectification including Refuelling & Pushback/startup & marshalling
Rampers handle loading/unloading so inform Maintenance of an abnormalities.

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