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B727VC10
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How were DC-9's delivered to Hawaii pre-ETOPS?

Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:25 am

Apologies if this has been discussed before, but I was thinking about this particular question today for those in the know. This may be very well a simple question and easy answer but I don't know.

Since the beginning of carrying passengers, airliners of all sizes and capabilities have been dispatched to all corners of the earth from the factory that they were built. I'm sure that the planes just made many stops on its way from say Seattle to Calcutta. In the pre-historic ages (before ETOPS) how were 2-engine aircraft delivered to locations like Hawaii that were surrounded by 1,000's of miles of ocean? Perfect example is the DC-9 in Hawaiian Airlines colors that I remember seeing pictures of as a kid in the 70's. I looked it up and the maximum range of the early DC-9's were 1,800-1,900 nautical miles and the flight distance from LAX to ITO (a bit closer than HNL) is 2,125 nautical miles. I can only imagine the range of two-engined piston aircraft (including the iconic DC-3) was even less.

No railroad option for transport obviously, so were the aircraft shipped over in parts on cargo ships or were they flown over stripped bare with additional reserve fuel tanks?
 
flyboy_se
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Re: How were DC-9's delivered to Hawaii pre-ETOPS?

Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:30 am

I would imagine that they would install extra fuel tanks for those delivery flights. Also being empty and no cargo helped as well.
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DfwRevolution
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Re: How were DC-9's delivered to Hawaii pre-ETOPS?

Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:30 am

Delivery flights do not operate under the same FAR rules as passenger-carrying flights.
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ScottB
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Re: How were DC-9's delivered to Hawaii pre-ETOPS?

Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:33 am

B727VC10 wrote:
No railroad option for transport obviously, so were the aircraft shipped over in parts on cargo ships or were they flown over stripped bare with additional reserve fuel tanks?


It's basically the same as how the 717's made it to Hawaii and how they go back to the mainland for heavy maintenance -- HA strips out the cabin (mostly the seating/carpet) and there are supplemental fuel tanks in the cabin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geVpPUFuOVg

ETOPS isn't relevant when we're talking about ferry flights; that protocol only applies to revenue flights with passengers.
 
wjcandee
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Re: How were DC-9's delivered to Hawaii pre-ETOPS?

Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:57 am

You have about 17,000 pounds of payload above max fuel in a 717 before you reach MTOW. 8 of those 250-gallon tanks yields 2000 gallons of Jet A, times 6.8 lbs/gal, yields 13,600 pounds, about 3000 pounds short of MTOW.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: How were DC-9's delivered to Hawaii pre-ETOPS?

Wed Dec 28, 2016 2:02 am

This topic comes up regularly so I guess, even if its rarely mentioned, if ever, it was the same with Aloha's 737s. Or could they reach the islands without additional fuel tanks?
 
n797mx
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Re: How were DC-9's delivered to Hawaii pre-ETOPS?

Wed Dec 28, 2016 2:06 am

DfwRevolution wrote:
Delivery flights do not operate under the same FAR rules as passenger-carrying flights.


I believe they would be under part 91 for ferry flights? At least that's how the airline I worked at did it.
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B727VC10
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Re: How were DC-9's delivered to Hawaii pre-ETOPS?

Wed Dec 28, 2016 2:07 am

Thanks for all of the responses so far.

Answers my question (and some others) and I've learned a bit more.
 
ltbewr
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Re: How were DC-9's delivered to Hawaii pre-ETOPS?

Wed Dec 28, 2016 2:18 am

I believe there are pictures on this site that show how the extra tanks were put in.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: How were DC-9's delivered to Hawaii pre-ETOPS?

Wed Dec 28, 2016 2:24 am

ltbewr wrote:
I believe there are pictures on this site that show how the extra tanks were put in.


And some previous threads about it in Tech/Ops: viewtopic.php?t=775131
 
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fortytwoeyes
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Re: How were DC-9's delivered to Hawaii pre-ETOPS?

Wed Dec 28, 2016 2:26 am

ScottB wrote:
It's basically the same as how the 717's made it to Hawaii and how they go back to the mainland for heavy maintenance -- HA strips out the cabin (mostly the seating/carpet) and there are supplemental fuel tanks in the cabin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geVpPUFuOVg


I assume we're talking about the kind of maintenance where they'd have to strip those parts anyway? Seems like a lot of effort otherwise.
 
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barney captain
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Re: How were DC-9's delivered to Hawaii pre-ETOPS?

Wed Dec 28, 2016 2:47 am

Even much smaller aircraft go through this process -

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LAXintl
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Re: How were DC-9's delivered to Hawaii pre-ETOPS?

Wed Dec 28, 2016 2:53 am

Ferry fuel tanks.

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trex8
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Re: How were DC-9's delivered to Hawaii pre-ETOPS?

Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:30 am

How do they get those tanks in the cabin? Look too wide for passenger doors and even if they did fit through a door do they need to take down the galleys /lavs etc?
 
benbeny
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Re: How were DC-9's delivered to Hawaii pre-ETOPS?

Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:01 pm

I'm wondering, what's the procedure for fuel fumes or spill inside the cabin? Sure it won't be a good thing.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: How were DC-9's delivered to Hawaii pre-ETOPS?

Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:30 pm

benbeny wrote:
I'm wondering, what's the procedure for fuel fumes or spill inside the cabin? Sure it won't be a good thing.


Fumes... aircraft have a high rate of air turnover in the cabin. The whole air is exchanged in about 6 minutes. So, fumes can't build up.

Spill? Before the ferry flight, have lots of time to check the auxiliary tanks, the duckts and seals.


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BravoOne
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Re: How were DC-9's delivered to Hawaii pre-ETOPS?

Wed Dec 28, 2016 3:44 pm

Has the DC9 ever been certified as an ETOPS airplane? I don't think so, but maybe someone else has first hand knowledge. As others have mentioned ferry fights may not be under Part 121 ops. Not sure about taking an airplane off of 121, and putting in on 91 as the paperwork could be onerous. There are provisions in Part 121 for ferrying aircraft as it is done all the time.
 
RetiredWeasel
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Re: How were DC-9's delivered to Hawaii pre-ETOPS?

Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:04 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
benbeny wrote:
I'm wondering, what's the procedure for fuel fumes or spill inside the cabin? Sure it won't be a good thing.


Fumes... aircraft have a high rate of air turnover in the cabin. The whole air is exchanged in about 6 minutes. So, fumes can't build up.

Spill? Before the ferry flight, have lots of time to check the auxiliary tanks, the duckts and seals.


David

Ya, but the two rags wrapped around the fittings on the 2 tanks on the left side of the photo don't exactly generate a high level of confidence.
 
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atypical
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Re: How were DC-9's delivered to Hawaii pre-ETOPS?

Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:17 am

They could have flow the aircraft from Japan to Hawaii by island hopping without installing any extra tanks or making changes to the stock aircraft. Not a practical suggestion for most.
 
gatechae
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Re: How were DC-9's delivered to Hawaii pre-ETOPS?

Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:14 am

interesting that they go as far as to affix their logo to those tanks.
 
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BreninTW
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Re: How were DC-9's delivered to Hawaii pre-ETOPS?

Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:05 am

gatechae wrote:
interesting that they go as far as to affix their logo to those tanks.


I'm sure those tanks are not exactly inexpensive, and they're owned by the airline. Logos and large names on the tanks make it easier for the McDD or an MRO to know which tanks need to get sent back to Hawaii with the aircraft after purchase or repairs.
 
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asqx
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Re: How were DC-9's delivered to Hawaii pre-ETOPS?

Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:54 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Not sure about taking an airplane off of 121, and putting in on 91 as the paperwork could be onerous.


Not really. In fact, I've flown the same plane under both 121 and 91 rules on the same day and the only thing that changed was a note on the dispatch release. In terms of the flight itself, it's simply a matter of which rules the plane will be flown under and how it is dispatched/operated. Maintenance procedures are a little more complex, but if the records are maintained to 121 standards, it's mostly a paperwork issue that can be done in less than an hour, if required at all. Given that ferry flights to the mainland are not an uncommon occurrence for Hawaiian's 717s, they've probably gotten everything worked out and I would guess that the longest part of the whole process is installing/removing the tanks themselves.
 
BravoOne
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Re: How were DC-9's delivered to Hawaii pre-ETOPS?

Sat Dec 31, 2016 7:58 pm

Thanks for the reply asks. I based my comments from prior event where DL wanted to attempt an around the world record with an MD11, similar to the Pan Am 747SP event. It required taking the airplane and crew off of the 121 ledger and making it a Part 91 operation. It could be done but to hear main tell the story it was akin to a sex change. Never went forward, thus it was nothing more than an idea at the time. The biggest reason it never happened was the promoters want it to begin and end at KBFI, and DL would not consider anything unless it happened in KATL. No surprise there.
 
benbeny
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Re: How were DC-9's delivered to Hawaii pre-ETOPS?

Sun Jan 01, 2017 2:59 am

viewtopic.php?t=743305
Well this thread shows MD-80s has in the past special exemption if needed.
I came across this document which says MD-80 are ETOPS certified, though I can't verify this http://aviationenglish.club/wp-content/ ... -ETOPS.pdf
 
BravoOne
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Re: How were DC-9's delivered to Hawaii pre-ETOPS?

Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:51 pm

Okay and this is from the Boeing ETOPS gurus. There are some MD80 and B717 type certified for ETOPS but...there are no such operators as of this date.

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