Hi, I'm a journalist looking for cabin crew, pilots and other airline staff to talk about any scary air contamination/fume events they have experienced. It's for a piece on a major UK news site and quotes can be anonymous if required. Has anyone experienced any fume events on planes that they'd like to talk about?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10 ... l-for-smo/

something like this?

Oohh yea more sensationalism. Whatever sells copy.

Welcome.

The most important thing to know about this forum is that everything devolves to A vs. B or Airbus vs. Boeing and everyone on here, secretly or not, is for one or the other.

And when it comes to cabin air, you need to know that the Boeing 787 features a bleedless system, something not even the new Airbus A350 or A380 offers.

More information here:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/trave ... n-air.html
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeroma ... _02_1.html

I know several big airlines are testing new upgraded cabin air filters on their fleets.

http://www.modstore.aero/modifications/modificationid(21653)/Airbus%20A320%20Enhanced%20Cabin%20Air%20Filtration%20(HEPA)

Yes BA286 is definitely a good example. Anyone know someone who has been on board when something like this has happened, who would comment? There are several legal cases and think it's shocking that people don't know more about it. Is for a sympathetic story on the side of cabin crew who have been affected.

There are only two types of aircraft one vents fumes into cabin the other vents lithium out. Either fly only B787s or buy R95 masks and hope for the best.

Cleanest air is on the planes. The air is heated to more than 500degrees as it comes off the compressor section of the jet engine then rapidly expanded thru the air cycle machine then put thru the cabin every 3 min. The rate it flows thru the cabin, its comparison is it is like saying once a molecule of air enters the cabin, it flows out of the plane about 3 min later. A narrow body aircraft is between 3-4000sq ft. which is about the size of the average home. Imagine that. Every 3 min, the air is changed . Your house air is not that clean plus nothing lives when it gets that hot. As the air is dumped into the cabin, which is how it pressurized, the warmer air rises and cooler settles so the manufacture has recirculation fans which keep the air moving in the cabin. THAT IS ALL THE RECIRCULATION FAN DOES. Some reporter/journalists tried to make people believe we use "used" air and some people believed it. What idiots.....reporters that is.... The recurculation fan just keeps the air from seperating in the cabin so your head doesn't get hot while your feet get cold. Pretty simple.

As for some getting sick when they fly., Well don't lick your hands. Germs from sick people are everywhere and when they touch something the germs are there waiting for you to touch them. It is the cold and flu season... Wash your hands.

Hope it helps.

journo87 wrote:

Yes BA286 is definitely a good example. Anyone know someone who has been on board when something like this has happened, who would comment? There are several legal cases and think it's shocking that people don't know more about it. Is for a sympathetic story on the side of cabin crew who have been affected.

Just ask yourself, how this air contamination affected the entire crew of more than 20 stationed all around both decks of the A380 to the extent they need to attend hospital, yet did not affect a single passenger. When you've found a definitive answer to that question, you will probably know as much if not more than any aviation expert in the world.

Bongodog1964 wrote:

journo87 wrote:

Yes BA286 is definitely a good example. Anyone know someone who has been on board when something like this has happened, who would comment? There are several legal cases and think it's shocking that people don't know more about it. Is for a sympathetic story on the side of cabin crew who have been affected.

Just ask yourself, how this air contamination affected the entire crew of more than 20 stationed all around both decks of the A380 to the extent they need to attend hospital, yet did not affect a single passenger. When you've found a definitive answer to that question, you will probably know as much if not more than any aviation expert in the world.

There have been reports of passengers being affected. I have an interview scheduled with one, and others have spoken previously: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/trave ... -sick.html

reltney wrote:

Cleanest air is on the planes. The air is heated to more than 500degrees as it comes off the compressor section of the jet engine then rapidly expanded thru the air cycle machine then put thru the cabin every 3 min. The rate it flows thru the cabin, its comparison is it is like saying once a molecule of air enters the cabin, it flows out of the plane about 3 min later. A narrow body aircraft is between 3-4000sq ft. which is about the size of the average home. Imagine that. Every 3 min, the air is changed . Your house air is not that clean plus nothing lives when it gets that hot. As the air is dumped into the cabin, which is how it pressurized, the warmer air rises and cooler settles so the manufacture has recirculation fans which keep the air moving in the cabin. THAT IS ALL THE RECIRCULATION FAN DOES. Some reporter/journalists tried to make people believe we use "used" air and some people believed it. What idiots.....reporters that is.... The recurculation fan just keeps the air from seperating in the cabin so your head doesn't get hot while your feet get cold. Pretty simple.

As for some getting sick when they fly., Well don't lick your hands. Germs from sick people are everywhere and when they touch something the germs are there waiting for you to touch them. It is the cold and flu season... Wash your hands.

Hope it helps.

Quite informative. Thanks!

I wonder how many a.net travelers wipe down their seat/arm rests/AVOD/AVOD controls/window area/seat-pocket documents with sanitizing wipes before settling into a flight? Probably would be a good idea.

You are so correct Holzman but you know that doesn't happen often enough. I wipe down the throttles, acars touch screen, yoke every flight. It helps mentally. Oh well. Tight packed folks squeezed in .....someone will get sneezed on. Like working out in a gym.

Cheers

reltney wrote:

Cleanest air is on the planes. The air is heated to more than 500degrees as it comes off the compressor section of the jet engine then rapidly expanded thru the air cycle machine then put thru the cabin every 3 min. The rate it flows thru the cabin, its comparison is it is like saying once a molecule of air enters the cabin, it flows out of the plane about 3 min later. A narrow body aircraft is between 3-4000sq ft. which is about the size of the average home. Imagine that. Every 3 min, the air is changed . Your house air is not that clean plus nothing lives when it gets that hot. As the air is dumped into the cabin, which is how it pressurized, the warmer air rises and cooler settles so the manufacture has recirculation fans which keep the air moving in the cabin. THAT IS ALL THE RECIRCULATION FAN DOES.

To put things in perspective:
In US general code requirement for bathroom fan equals to air change in about 8 minutes, and stove hood should do air change in 4 minutes in entire kitchen.
However, plane would pack about 7 people in a size of typical bathroom...

reltney wrote:

Cleanest air is on the planes. The air is heated to more than 500degrees as it comes off the compressor section of the jet engine then rapidly expanded thru the air cycle machine then put thru the cabin every 3 min. The rate it flows thru the cabin, its comparison is it is like saying once a molecule of air enters the cabin, it flows out of the plane about 3 min later. A narrow body aircraft is between 3-4000sq ft. which is about the size of the average home. Imagine that. Every 3 min, the air is changed . Your house air is not that clean plus nothing lives when it gets that hot. As the air is dumped into the cabin, which is how it pressurized, the warmer air rises and cooler settles so the manufacture has recirculation fans which keep the air moving in the cabin. THAT IS ALL THE RECIRCULATION FAN DOES. Some reporter/journalists tried to make people believe we use "used" air and some people believed it. What idiots.....reporters that is.... The recurculation fan just keeps the air from seperating in the cabin so your head doesn't get hot while your feet get cold. Pretty simple.

As for some getting sick when they fly., Well don't lick your hands. Germs from sick people are everywhere and when they touch something the germs are there waiting for you to touch them. It is the cold and flu season... Wash your hands.

Hope it helps.

That's the case only as long as everything works as intended. I believe OP is interested in events where something harmful gets in the cabin air and causes symptoms to the pax and the crew, which isn't that rare at all:

http://avherald.com/h?search_term=fumes ... search.y=0

pvjin wrote:

reltney wrote:

Cleanest air is on the planes. The air is heated to more than 500degrees as it comes off the compressor section of the jet engine then rapidly expanded thru the air cycle machine then put thru the cabin every 3 min. The rate it flows thru the cabin, its comparison is it is like saying once a molecule of air enters the cabin, it flows out of the plane about 3 min later. A narrow body aircraft is between 3-4000sq ft. which is about the size of the average home. Imagine that. Every 3 min, the air is changed . Your house air is not that clean plus nothing lives when it gets that hot. As the air is dumped into the cabin, which is how it pressurized, the warmer air rises and cooler settles so the manufacture has recirculation fans which keep the air moving in the cabin. THAT IS ALL THE RECIRCULATION FAN DOES. Some reporter/journalists tried to make people believe we use "used" air and some people believed it. What idiots.....reporters that is.... The recurculation fan just keeps the air from seperating in the cabin so your head doesn't get hot while your feet get cold. Pretty simple.

As for some getting sick when they fly., Well don't lick your hands. Germs from sick people are everywhere and when they touch something the germs are there waiting for you to touch them. It is the cold and flu season... Wash your hands.

Hope it helps.

That's the case only as long as everything works as intended. I believe OP is interested in events where something harmful gets in the cabin air and causes symptoms to the pax and the crew, which isn't that rare at all:

http://avherald.com/h?search_term=fumes ... search.y=0

Exactly what I'm looking for - thank you. Any relevant responses would be gratefully received.

Bongodog1964 wrote:

journo87 wrote:

Yes BA286 is definitely a good example. Anyone know someone who has been on board when something like this has happened, who would comment? There are several legal cases and think it's shocking that people don't know more about it. Is for a sympathetic story on the side of cabin crew who have been affected.

Just ask yourself, how this air contamination affected the entire crew of more than 20 stationed all around both decks of the A380 to the extent they need to attend hospital, yet did not affect a single passenger. When you've found a definitive answer to that question, you will probably know as much if not more than any aviation expert in the world.

The toxins in fume events are cumulative and build up in the body over time. When you have 20 people that fly a few times a week for say 50 weeks a year they are going to have higher exposure. That's why you see them get sick more often than the person who flies maybe a couple times a year. The average person just hasn't had the exposure to bring levels up high enough to feel sick right away. Hundreds of hours of exposure versus a dozen or so hours is the difference.

reltney wrote:

You are so correct Holzman but you know that doesn't happen often enough. I wipe down the throttles, acars touch screen, yoke every flight. It helps mentally. Oh well. Tight packed folks squeezed in .....someone will get sneezed on. Like working out in a gym.

And as a result you are more likely to develop asthma and allergies.

Seriously, a (modest) amount of regular contamination is good for your immune system. People should stop being OCD on cleanliness except where it matters.

journo87 wrote:

Hi, I'm a journalist looking for cabin crew, pilots and other airline staff to talk about any scary air contamination/fume events they have experienced. It's for a piece on a major UK news site and quotes can be anonymous if required. Has anyone experienced any fume events on planes that they'd like to talk about?

I'm sure you will get the best information from aggrieved passengers, not airline staff. All of the uniformed people are wont to protect the brand and won't tell about bad things that happen on company metal.

I've had three scary experiences. The first was on a flight from Columbia SC to DC National in the mid-90s. I was a smoker and was forced to sit in the very last row of the plane. They had ashtrays built into the armrests. The air was very bad back there, even for me. I got a terrific sinus headache and when we landed my ears were absolutely, totally clogged. At National we off-loaded at the old North Terminal, and I asked a police officer where the baggage returns were located. I saw his mouth move but I couldn't hear a word he said. I had to ask him to point the way. Very scary.

On another flight I sat next to a woman who, although she looked pretty good, smelled something awful. Flowery lavender-like perfume. Believe me, we sinus sufferers are terribly afflicted by fumes, per- or not per-. Travelers should not use perfumes, should bathe or shower (no scented soaps), and avoid overdoing it with talc. Even talcummed babies smell awful. Talcum is often perfumed.

I'm embarrassed to admit that my worst fume experience on an airliner involved ME. I was the one doing the fuming after some jackass who wouldn't check his luggage whacked me in the head and shoulder as he struggled to lift his overweight bag into the overhead bin. If it were possible to do so now,I would apologize to my fellow travelers who, I am quite sure, were affected by my fumes.

You may use my name or not, as you wish. You will probably have noticed that I am the only person around here who is honest enough to go by his own name and not hide by some silly "handle." I'd bet that, if you get a by-line on your story, it will not read "by Journo87".

Good luck with your research.

Bob Patterson ("Honest Bob")

PS: Check the style book for the use of "talcummed." Spell-checker and I are somewhat uncertain about it.

SomebodyInTLS wrote:

reltney wrote:

You are so correct Holzman but you know that doesn't happen often enough. I wipe down the throttles, acars touch screen, yoke every flight. It helps mentally. Oh well. Tight packed folks squeezed in .....someone will get sneezed on. Like working out in a gym.

And as a result you are more likely to develop asthma and allergies.

Seriously, a (modest) amount of regular contamination is good for your immune system. People should stop being OCD on cleanliness except where it matters.

I have to agree 100%. The wiping of the stuff in the cockpit helps when I see the guy who left the plane was hacking and coughing but I mainly do it to get the food grease, slime, BBQ sauce and coffee smeared dirt off the controls. Pilots are pigs .........

Oink...

reltney wrote:

Cleanest air is on the planes. The air is heated to more than 500degrees as it comes off the compressor section of the jet engine then rapidly expanded thru the air cycle machine then put thru the cabin every 3 min. The rate it flows thru the cabin, its comparison is it is like saying once a molecule of air enters the cabin, it flows out of the plane about 3 min later. A narrow body aircraft is between 3-4000sq ft. which is about the size of the average home. Imagine that. Every 3 min, the air is changed . Your house air is not that clean plus nothing lives when it gets that hot. As the air is dumped into the cabin, which is how it pressurized, the warmer air rises and cooler settles so the manufacture has recirculation fans which keep the air moving in the cabin. THAT IS ALL THE RECIRCULATION FAN DOES. Some reporter/journalists tried to make people believe we use "used" air and some people believed it. What idiots.....reporters that is.... The recurculation fan just keeps the air from seperating in the cabin so your head doesn't get hot while your feet get cold. Pretty simple.

As for some getting sick when they fly., Well don't lick your hands. Germs from sick people are everywhere and when they touch something the germs are there waiting for you to touch them. It is the cold and flu season... Wash your hands.

Hope it helps.

Great input. In addition, on most modern aircraft, the air passes through a HEPA filter before entering the cabin.

tb727 wrote:

Bongodog1964 wrote:

journo87 wrote:

Yes BA286 is definitely a good example. Anyone know someone who has been on board when something like this has happened, who would comment? There are several legal cases and think it's shocking that people don't know more about it. Is for a sympathetic story on the side of cabin crew who have been affected.

Just ask yourself, how this air contamination affected the entire crew of more than 20 stationed all around both decks of the A380 to the extent they need to attend hospital, yet did not affect a single passenger. When you've found a definitive answer to that question, you will probably know as much if not more than any aviation expert in the world.

The toxins in fume events are cumulative and build up in the body over time. When you have 20 people that fly a few times a week for say 50 weeks a year they are going to have higher exposure. That's why you see them get sick more often than the person who flies maybe a couple times a year. The average person just hasn't had the exposure to bring levels up high enough to feel sick right away. Hundreds of hours of exposure versus a dozen or so hours is the difference.

Is that a proven fact or just another theory ? Additionally, a full A380 crew would have experience ranging from 100's to many 1000's of flying hours, so rather strange to all meet the cumulative level to be affected simultaneously.

Bongodog1964 wrote:

tb727 wrote:

Bongodog1964 wrote:

Just ask yourself, how this air contamination affected the entire crew of more than 20 stationed all around both decks of the A380 to the extent they need to attend hospital, yet did not affect a single passenger. When you've found a definitive answer to that question, you will probably know as much if not more than any aviation expert in the world.

The toxins in fume events are cumulative and build up in the body over time. When you have 20 people that fly a few times a week for say 50 weeks a year they are going to have higher exposure. That's why you see them get sick more often than the person who flies maybe a couple times a year. The average person just hasn't had the exposure to bring levels up high enough to feel sick right away. Hundreds of hours of exposure versus a dozen or so hours is the difference.

Is that a proven fact or just another theory ? Additionally, a full A380 crew would have experience ranging from 100's to many 1000's of flying hours, so rather strange to all meet the cumulative level to be affected simultaneously.

The cumulative build up from atomized turbine oil going into the pressurization system is fact. 20 getting sick at once could be a case of "monkey see, monkey do" with 1 feeling sick and the other 19 feeling they should be too or maybe all 20 are legitimately sick. Humans are kinda weird like that so I don't know to tell you there.

The air in airliners used to be much worse than it is now. In the days of smoking, it was often unbearable. I remember opening suitcases only to receive a blast of ash tray like air. Of course in those days, people were also allowed to smoke at work, which also didn't help. I was fairly fortunate not to work around a lot of smokers, but I did have a three year stretch where I flew virtually every week. They were short flights, but the exposure added up. At the end of that three year period, I ended up in a hospital for 11 days with pneumonia. I didn't take great care of my health, was up too late, ate too many restaurant meals, spent more time in bars than I should have, but I do believe that the air in Eastern and Delta DC-9s, 727s and 737s didn't help me much either. I've never smoked (lost my dad to lung cancer when he was 53), but I am now allergic to almost anything you can mention, and have chronic asthma and bronchitis. Take care of your lungs, you'll regret it if you don't.

B757Forever wrote:

reltney wrote:

Cleanest air is on the planes. The air is heated to more than 500degrees as it comes off the compressor section of the jet engine then rapidly expanded thru the air cycle machine then put thru the cabin every 3 min. The rate it flows thru the cabin, its comparison is it is like saying once a molecule of air enters the cabin, it flows out of the plane about 3 min later. A narrow body aircraft is between 3-4000sq ft. which is about the size of the average home. Imagine that. Every 3 min, the air is changed . Your house air is not that clean plus nothing lives when it gets that hot. As the air is dumped into the cabin, which is how it pressurized, the warmer air rises and cooler settles so the manufacture has recirculation fans which keep the air moving in the cabin. THAT IS ALL THE RECIRCULATION FAN DOES. Some reporter/journalists tried to make people believe we use "used" air and some people believed it. What idiots.....reporters that is.... The recurculation fan just keeps the air from seperating in the cabin so your head doesn't get hot while your feet get cold. Pretty simple.

As for some getting sick when they fly., Well don't lick your hands. Germs from sick people are everywhere and when they touch something the germs are there waiting for you to touch them. It is the cold and flu season... Wash your hands.

Hope it helps.

Great input. In addition, on most modern aircraft, the air passes through a HEPA filter before entering the cabin.

Your right. A few filters on each plane. Forgot that. Great thread.

Michael

reltney wrote:

SomebodyInTLS wrote:

Seriously, a (modest) amount of regular contamination is good for your immune system. People should stop being OCD on cleanliness except where it matters.

I have to agree 100%. The wiping of the stuff in the cockpit helps when I see the guy who left the plane was hacking and coughing but I mainly do it to get the food grease, slime, BBQ sauce and coffee smeared dirt off the controls. Pilots are pigs .........

Oink...

Okay, fair enough!

Lol. The air quality in this country is not that good, that actually after few hours of flying the air on the ground stinks.
Being said, in here the air in the plane is better than at the ground.
Oh yes, people are pig. I've found not only once or twice, but many times people chewing gum and put them on the seat. Eww...

Contact the Pilots' and Flight Attendants' Unions, maybe they can help you to get in contact with some affected crew members.

I found this video on youtube which explains the problem, a little bit boring but very informative:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3Bj-QO4-L0

The only thing I can think of that would produce toxic fumes would be something in the bleed system itself, like oil contamination in the ducts. Personally, I've never experienced such a thing in hundreds of flights as a passenger and pilot.

Having said that, coming into some airports you'll sometimes get a bit of a smell but since bleed air is just ambient air that has been temperature and pressure regulated, that smell comes from the same air you'll breathe after landing (sadly). So it's not the plane to blame.


Just to clarify, bleed air coming from the engines is taken from a location in the engines well ahead of any combustion, so all you get is air from outside.

Starlionblue wrote:

The only thing I can think of that would produce toxic fumes would be something in the bleed system itself, like oil contamination in the ducts. Personally, I've never experienced such a thing in hundreds of flights as a passenger and pilot.

Having said that, coming into some airports you'll sometimes get a bit of a smell but since bleed air is just ambient air that has been temperature and pressure regulated, that smell comes from the same air you'll breathe after landing (sadly). So it's not the plane to blame.


Just to clarify, bleed air coming from the engines is taken from a location in the engines well ahead of any combustion, so all you get is air from outside.

Out of curiositiy, my experience about A320 is ALWAYS bad regarding cabin smell when air is drawn from APU. It always makes me nauseous and enough to make my breathing uncomfortable. On the other hands, I only experience similar things rarely on 737, usually just after shutdown.
Is it related to APU inlet placing?

On the ground, the APU inlet should get less crap than the engines. It is further up. But your results may vary.

I've sometimes caught a whiff just after engine start. Assuming this is because there's a bit of oil smell in the engines which is sucked in before there's proper flow, but not sure.

How about Lawson Army Airfield to Bicycle Lake Army airfield, not stop on a C-141......? THAT was some nasty air......and when the Airborne Troopers put out the side air deflector to jump out....all the puking made the air even WORSE!!

Starlionblue wrote:

On the ground, the APU inlet should get less crap than the engines. It is further up. But your results may vary.

I've sometimes caught a whiff just after engine start. Assuming this is because there's a bit of oil smell in the engines which is sucked in before there's proper flow, but not sure.

Depends on inlet/exhuast placement. Engines seem to push their exhaust away pretty effectively while APUs don't. If the wind is blowing the wrong way you end up "sniffing your own butt". If you're too clsoe to the guy ahead in a conga line with no crosswind you might sniff his.