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WPvsMW
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Why didn't Boeing create a 318/319/320/321 series?

Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:31 pm

Given the ops advantages of common ATP ratings for the Airbus 318/319/320/321, how did Boeing not see that opportunity for the 737 family, esp. with so much collaboration between B and the NLCs?
 
7673mech
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Re: Why didn't Boeing create a 318/319/320/321 series?

Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:33 pm

???? 737-600/700/800/900?
 
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TOGA10
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Re: Why didn't Boeing create a 318/319/320/321 series?

Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:48 pm

You're kidding, right?
Bit late for April fools, but here goes: https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=753379
Go Max! #33
 
benbeny
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Re: Why didn't Boeing create a 318/319/320/321 series?

Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:48 pm

My understanding is that 737 classic/NG/MAX have (will have) common type ratings for all variants. I might be wrong though
 
deltal1011man
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Re: Why didn't Boeing create a 318/319/320/321 series?

Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:07 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
Given the ops advantages of common ATP ratings for the Airbus 318/319/320/321, how did Boeing not see that opportunity for the 737 family, esp. with so much collaboration between B and the NLCs?

737-600 is the A318
737-700 is the A319
737-800 is the A320
737-900/900ER is the A321

So uh, what exactly are you talking about?

benbeny wrote:
My understanding is that 737 classic/NG/MAX have (will have) common type ratings for all variants. I might be wrong though

Pretty sure the Classic/NG and the NG/MAX will but not the Classic/MAX.

Could be wrong on that. (might be just a union issue causing the parking of the -300s at WN?)
 
BravoOne
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Re: Why didn't Boeing create a 318/319/320/321 series?

Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:36 pm

Come on, at least ask an intelligent question and if know so little about the subject speak up and admit it right up front.

The MAX is covered by a differences course and not a new TR.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Why didn't Boeing create a 318/319/320/321 series?

Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:22 pm

As a follow up to this it's my understanding that SWA will take delivery of their 737MAX and then park them until the Fall time period. The FAA will only allow them to operate three types of 737 at once and until they rid themselves of the -300 Classic they cannot introduce the MAX into their fleet. I'm not aware of any regulatory guidance regarding this so it may be just an position their POI has put forth
 
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WesternDC6B
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Re: Why didn't Boeing create a 318/319/320/321 series?

Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:49 pm

BravoOne wrote:
As a follow up to this it's my understanding that SWA will take delivery of their 737MAX and then park them until the Fall time period. The FAA will only allow them to operate three types of 737 at once and until they rid themselves of the -300 Classic they cannot introduce the MAX into their fleet. I'm not aware of any regulatory guidance regarding this so it may be just an position their POI has put forth


I realize Our Betters in Washington work in mysterious ways, but, does anyone know the FAA's "logic" in only allowing three types of 737 to be operated by SWA?
Never employ grandios verbiage when the utilisation of diminutive phraseology will suffice.
 
MO11
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Re: Why didn't Boeing create a 318/319/320/321 series?

Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:11 pm

The airline can operate them all. The pilots can't be assigned to fly the -300, -700/800, and MAX concurrently.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Why didn't Boeing create a 318/319/320/321 series?

Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:23 pm

This is my point. My understanding is that was no problem with a pilot operating any mix of A318-321 but there was a problem operating any mix of 737 versions. Since it was pilot-related, I thought it was ATP-related.

Mod... please revise the topic heading to "Why does the FAA restrict a pilots' operation of any mix of 737 versions, but no problem operating any mix of A318 to A321".

Is this something that Boeing could have foreseen?

Are there similar EASA restrictions?
 
trnswrld
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Re: Why didn't Boeing create a 318/319/320/321 series?

Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:45 am

Surely you have heard of the 737 lol
 
bomber996
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Re: Why didn't Boeing create a 318/319/320/321 series?

Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:23 am

WPvsMW wrote:
This is my point. My understanding is that was no problem with a pilot operating any mix of A318-321 but there was a problem operating any mix of 737 versions. Since it was pilot-related, I thought it was ATP-related.

Mod... please revise the topic heading to "Why does the FAA restrict a pilots' operation of any mix of 737 versions, but no problem operating any mix of A318 to A321".

Is this something that Boeing could have foreseen?

Are there similar EASA restrictions?


I would assume it has to do with the differences between the flight decks of the classics vs the NG vs the MAX. Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Airbus flight deck remained basically unchanged since the early days even across sub-types?

Peace :box:
"We've recently upped our standards, so up yours." - Federal Aviation Administration
 
MO11
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Re: Why didn't Boeing create a 318/319/320/321 series?

Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:13 am

I can't locate the reference, but I recall that this is a Southwest CMO issue. The pilots could actually qualify in all three versions, but keeping up with training and recency requirements would be iffy.
 
osanco
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Re: Why didn't Boeing create a 318/319/320/321 series?

Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:33 pm

The A320 family cockpit has been exactly the same since the rollout (just minor improvements over the years). Even with the A330, they are only requiered to take a short introduction to operational aspects.

That didn´t happened with Classic-NG-MAX. The transition from 737NG´s to the MAX will only require a minimum of 3 hour CBT.
 
sdh9
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Re: Why didn't Boeing create a 318/319/320/321 series?

Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:16 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
This is my point. My understanding is that was no problem with a pilot operating any mix of A318-321 but there was a problem operating any mix of 737 versions. Since it was pilot-related, I thought it was ATP-related.

Mod... please revise the topic heading to "Why does the FAA restrict a pilots' operation of any mix of 737 versions, but no problem operating any mix of A318 to A321".

Is this something that Boeing could have foreseen?

Are there similar EASA restrictions?


It has to do with the cockpit displays, and is why WN and CO had their NGs delivered with the EFIS/MAP configured displays (not the PFD/ND like on the 777). The FAA will only allow pilots to fly two forms of differing display types, and each variant of the 737 series has a different cockpit display.

The EFIS/MAP display was close enough that the FAA allowed it to count the same as the glass cockpit in the 737 Classics, but both WN and CO had non-glass equipped Classics which was the problem they had to solve around.

With the 737 Max comes the 787-style cockpit, so therefore we're back to three display types. Easier to park the Classics than redesign the glass on the Max.

The same issue applies to the 757/767 as well. United is the only airline that flies the 757-2/-3/767-3/-4 as a common pilot group and had to jump through major hoops to pull it off. Delta runs their 767-400 as a separate pilot category to get around the issue, mostly because they have many second-hand 757s and 767s with different cockpit layouts.
 
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Channex757
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Re: Why didn't Boeing create a 318/319/320/321 series?

Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:17 pm

What I would like to see, and it looks like Boeing is working this way, is cockpit commonality across the range. It cuts down on costs for the customer as a pilot from an A319 knows his way round an A330. Once the 737 finally gets put out to pasture and the 747-8 and 773ER joins it, the successor aircraft should have that same commonality of cockpit design. it'll be lower cost to jump pilots between Boeing aircraft types, and there's even a large saving in there for simulators as modular design can make them common across designs.

Some more automation and simplification will help with this as Boeings have always had a 'busy' cockpit design compared to the Airbuses.
 
kcrwflyer
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Re: Why didn't Boeing create a 318/319/320/321 series?

Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:07 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
This is my point. My understanding is that was no problem with a pilot operating any mix of A318-321 but there was a problem operating any mix of 737 versions. Since it was pilot-related, I thought it was ATP-related.

Mod... please revise the topic heading to "Why does the FAA restrict a pilots' operation of any mix of 737 versions, but no problem operating any mix of A318 to A321".

Is this something that Boeing could have foreseen?

Are there similar EASA restrictions?


You aren't comparing apples to apples here.

The A318-21 were all designed/built with basically the same cockpit. Boeing couldn't have done that to begin with because the 737 family is an older design.

From the perspective of pilot training, you'd have to compare the A320 series to the 737NG series, or the 737 classic series, but not the entire 737 family. There's a fair amount of difference between a glass cockpit 737-900ER than a 737-300; as there should be with a decade+ of innovation between them.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Why didn't Boeing create a 318/319/320/321 series?

Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:32 pm

Boeing is keenly aware of the need for commonality in their flight deck designs as this is a customer driven issue. Rumor had it, that if the MAX were to require a level C or greater training requirement, (think FTD or FFS) Boeing would be penalized one million per airframe on each SWA 737-8 delivered. That was a big incentive for them to keep it within these parameters. Doesn't help when a customer as good as SWA is, still wants to dumb down the overhead panel to keep it aligned with earlier airframes.

For all the faults the MD11 may have had, the flight deck was light years ahead of any Boeing products at the time.

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