Trimeresurus
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Do 777-200 pilots fly 777-300s and vice versa?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:51 pm

If it's in their fleet of course. Same for A318/319/320/321 and A330/A340. Do they regularly fly one one day and the other another? Doesn't handling of the aircraft feel different because of size? What about taxiing?
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Do 777-200 pilots fly 777-300s and vice versa?

Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:40 pm

Yes, this is done regularly. Part of the job. The differences are not large, and from what I understand there are also differences -300 to -300ER. Certainly these are smaller differences than 330 vs 350 which can be flown interchangeably. If there is anything you think you are likely to forget you might include it in a briefing specifically, such as the different initial target pitch angle on take-off for 330 and 350.

Even different examples of the same type aircraft typically have differences within a fleet, for example in some of the instrumentation and so forth. And if you want to go further, a 30-40 ton weight difference, which often happen if you're flying short haul and long haul, makes for changes in how the aircraft handles.

Again, part of the job to know these things.

Of note is that the 318-321 FBW is "tuned" so they'll have the same response to control inputs.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
mmo
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Re: Do 777-200 pilots fly 777-300s and vice versa?

Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:17 am

Starlionblue wrote:

Of note is that the 318-321 FBW is "tuned" so they'll have the same response to control inputs.


Just like the 777/787 family.....

The difference between the 300/300ER is power. Fully loaded there is a marked difference in performance.
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TOGA10
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Re: Do 777-200 pilots fly 777-300s and vice versa?

Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:19 am

Flying the 319 and the 320 is very slightly different, 319 handles a bit more directly where as the 320 is a bit more 'sluggish'. Apart from that, only minor differences. I think the difference with or without winglets is bigger!
Love flying, hate the alarm at 3 in the morning, love watching the sun rise at 5:30. It's all about compromises.
 
Flow2706
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Re: Do 777-200 pilots fly 777-300s and vice versa?

Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:03 pm

TOGA10 wrote:
Flying the 319 and the 320 is very slightly different, 319 handles a bit more directly where as the 320 is a bit more 'sluggish'. Apart from that, only minor differences. I think the difference with or without winglets is bigger!

Never noticed a difference between 320 with or without Sharklet. 319 flies like a bag of crisps if it is very windy, especially when light (and you might be in for a surprise during the first goaround in a light 319 - it's pretty spectacular...). 321 is very nice in manual flight, very stable and it's easier to make smooth landings than on 320s. However they are very limited in altitude capability unless very light. Also, the handling in turbulent air on 321s is annoying - they tend to yaw and roll a lot, even in only light turbulence. It's good that you can use full speedbrake on 319/321 with AP on - I never understood why the speedbrake only extend 1/2 with the AP on on 320s...it's very annoying that you have to fly manual if you need full speedbrake on the 320.
 
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DFWflightpath
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Re: Do 777-200 pilots fly 777-300s and vice versa?

Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:06 pm

could you guys elaborate more on differing handling characteristics with wingtip devices with these aircraft types?
 
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TOGA10
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Re: Do 777-200 pilots fly 777-300s and vice versa?

Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:22 pm

DFWflightpath wrote:
could you guys elaborate more on differing handling characteristics with wingtip devices with these aircraft types?

Just personal opinion, but two main things:
With winglets / sharklets, the 320 seems a bit more sensitive to crosswinds and thus requires a bit more pro active thinking. The other thing for me is that the 320 with sharklets is that it is more slippery, so it doesn't slow down as quickly as a regular 320. Especially when you're descending with a tailwind, it can be a bit of a pain to slow down without using the lever of shame ;-).
Other than that, very similar throughout.
Love flying, hate the alarm at 3 in the morning, love watching the sun rise at 5:30. It's all about compromises.
 
MPadhi
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Re: Do 777-200 pilots fly 777-300s and vice versa?

Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:56 pm

TOGA10 wrote:
it can be a bit of a pain to slow down without using the lever of shame ;-).


I know your comment was tongue in cheek, but is it 'bad' to use the spoilers in flight? (Hope you know what I mean, I'm struggling with the wording!)
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Do 777-200 pilots fly 777-300s and vice versa?

Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:23 am

MPadhi wrote:
TOGA10 wrote:
it can be a bit of a pain to slow down without using the lever of shame ;-).


I know your comment was tongue in cheek, but is it 'bad' to use the spoilers in flight? (Hope you know what I mean, I'm struggling with the wording!)


All in good fun. We do sometimes joke about it, because using the speedbrake can indicate that the PF made an error in his descent planning. No big deal really. Yet another nerdy pilot behaviour. :D

Given a "perfect" descent profile, you shouldn't need to use the speedbrakes. However as mentioned above the descent profile is rarely perfect given STAR constraints, ATC directives, unexpected winds and so forth. And thus the PF often needs to grab the speedbrake lever even if he's mentally calculated the profile to perfection.
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DiamondFlyer
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Re: Do 777-200 pilots fly 777-300s and vice versa?

Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:46 am

Even airplane families that have fairly significant difference in handling can be flown by the same pilots at the same time. Like the DC-9 series, the -10 flew vastly different than the -20/30/40/50. Likewise with the CRJ-100/200, being vastly different than the 700/900. All due to lack of leading edge devices.
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TOGA10
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Re: Do 777-200 pilots fly 777-300s and vice versa?

Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:25 pm

MPadhi wrote:
TOGA10 wrote:
it can be a bit of a pain to slow down without using the lever of shame ;-).


I know your comment was tongue in cheek, but is it 'bad' to use the spoilers in flight? (Hope you know what I mean, I'm struggling with the wording!)

Not bad at all, that's what it's designed for. As Starlionblue explained, loads of factors out of the pilots power can make it a very useful piece of equipment. Just joking around :-).
Love flying, hate the alarm at 3 in the morning, love watching the sun rise at 5:30. It's all about compromises.
 
horsepowerchef
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Re: Do 777-200 pilots fly 777-300s and vice versa?

Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:56 am

I flew on UA's newest 77W LHR-IAH 2 weeks ago. While walking to customs I chatted with the pilot who was at the controls for landing. As this was his first encounter with the 77W, he said the landing was a bit of a handful in the crosswind compared to the 77E that he is used to flying. He also said that he could feel the power difference from the engines because it required smaller movements of the throttles. Also, it was a bit of an annoyance not being able to climb over turbulence, as the 77W likes to cruise at lower altitude compared to the 77E.
 
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asqx
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Re: Do 777-200 pilots fly 777-300s and vice versa?

Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:15 am

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Even airplane families that have fairly significant difference in handling can be flown by the same pilots at the same time. Likewise with the CRJ-100/200, being vastly different than the 700/900. All due to lack of leading edge devices.


I wouldn't go so far as to say that they handle differently. Performance is notably different, and it's far more than just the addition of slats that affects that, but handling wise I don't find there to be much difference. They all snap roll like a kite and feel like a dump truck in the vertical to me. Speed brakes in the 7/900 are useless though, mostly because they are the same size as the smaller 200.
 
N353SK
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Re: Do 777-200 pilots fly 777-300s and vice versa?

Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:02 am

DFWflightpath wrote:
could you guys elaborate more on differing handling characteristics with wingtip devices with these aircraft types?


The biggest difference I've noticed is that aircraft with winglets/sharklets have a tendency to float a little bit more in the flare.
 
aeropix
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Re: Do 777-200 pilots fly 777-300s and vice versa?

Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:23 pm

At Emirates, any 777 pilot there for more than a few years have had to the chance to fly EVERY variant of the 777 ever made! Until recently EK operated the B777-200 (non ER / "A" model) the B777-200ER, B777-200LR, B777-300 (non-ER) B777-300ER and B777Freighter. And on top of that the fleet has a mix of Rolls Royce and General Electric engines each with their own procedures and quirks. Emirates pilots fly all variants interchangeably and can also look forward to flying the B777-8 and B777-9 models within the next 2 years to truly round out the portfolio. The only thing missing would be Pratt and Whitney powered 777.

Additionally, the route structure allow EK pilots to fly both short and long haul sectors over a wide range of aircraft weights and in every corner of the performance envelope. From the 45-minute sectors to Bahrain, to the 18-hour sector Dubai-Auckland (prior to the A380 switch), and from isolated sea-level island airports like Seychelles to high elevation mountainous airports like Addis Ababa, Mexico City and Quito, they not only fly every 777 ever made but also to 6 continents and perhaps the most diverse portfolio of airports amongst any carrier.

I don't think any other airline in the world has operated every 777 variant and so this opportunity is (was) unique to Emirates and their pilots.
 
SAAFNAV
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Re: Do 777-200 pilots fly 777-300s and vice versa?

Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:18 pm

aeropix wrote:
At Emirates, any 777 pilot there for more than a few years have had to the chance to fly EVERY variant of the 777 ever made! Until recently EK operated the B777-200 (non ER / "A" model) the B777-200ER, B777-200LR, B777-300 (non-ER) B777-300ER and B777Freighter. And on top of that the fleet has a mix of Rolls Royce and General Electric engines each with their own procedures and quirks. Emirates pilots fly all variants interchangeably and can also look forward to flying the B777-8 and B777-9 models within the next 2 years to truly round out the portfolio. The only thing missing would be Pratt and Whitney powered 777.

Additionally, the route structure allow EK pilots to fly both short and long haul sectors over a wide range of aircraft weights and in every corner of the performance envelope. From the 45-minute sectors to Bahrain, to the 18-hour sector Dubai-Auckland (prior to the A380 switch), and from isolated sea-level island airports like Seychelles to high elevation mountainous airports like Addis Ababa, Mexico City and Quito, they not only fly every 777 ever made but also to 6 continents and perhaps the most diverse portfolio of airports amongst any carrier.

I don't think any other airline in the world has operated every 777 variant and so this opportunity is (was) unique to Emirates and their pilots.


Copy-paste much from the other thread? Even after you've been called on your facts.
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aeropix
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Re: Do 777-200 pilots fly 777-300s and vice versa?

Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:00 pm

Post was relevant to both threads. And no, the SkyCargo is not separate, have been flying a mix of both Passenger and Cargo fleets on the same roster for many years, including this very month.

But thanks so much for your insightful and productive addition to the conversation!
 
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tavong
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Re: Do 777-200 pilots fly 777-300s and vice versa?

Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:36 pm

aeropix wrote:
At Emirates, any 777 pilot there for more than a few years have had to the chance to fly EVERY variant of the 777 ever made! Until recently EK operated the B777-200 (non ER / "A" model) the B777-200ER, B777-200LR, B777-300 (non-ER) B777-300ER and B777Freighter. And on top of that the fleet has a mix of Rolls Royce and General Electric engines each with their own procedures and quirks. Emirates pilots fly all variants interchangeably and can also look forward to flying the B777-8 and B777-9 models within the next 2 years to truly round out the portfolio. The only thing missing would be Pratt and Whitney powered 777.

Additionally, the route structure allow EK pilots to fly both short and long haul sectors over a wide range of aircraft weights and in every corner of the performance envelope. From the 45-minute sectors to Bahrain, to the 18-hour sector Dubai-Auckland (prior to the A380 switch), and from isolated sea-level island airports like Seychelles to high elevation mountainous airports like Addis Ababa, Mexico City and Quito, they not only fly every 777 ever made but also to 6 continents and perhaps the most diverse portfolio of airports amongst any carrier.

I don't think any other airline in the world has operated every 777 variant and so this opportunity is (was) unique to Emirates and their pilots.


Just a question did EK ever had any PW 777? or they just got RR ones and later GE when they got the -LR, -300ER?

Thanks in advance.

Gus
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aeropix
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Re: Do 777-200 pilots fly 777-300s and vice versa?

Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:42 pm

tavong wrote:
did EK ever had any PW 777?


No, just RR and GE variants, and the Rolls Royce ones will be phased out with the last -300(non ER) aircraft making the fleet all GE.
 
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tavong
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Re: Do 777-200 pilots fly 777-300s and vice versa?

Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:57 pm

aeropix wrote:
tavong wrote:
did EK ever had any PW 777?


No, just RR and GE variants, and the Rolls Royce ones will be phased out with the last -300(non ER) aircraft making the fleet all GE.


Thanks for the answer!!!

Gus
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Just put me on any modern airliner and i will be happy, give me more star alliance miles and i will be a lot happier.
 
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DFWflightpath
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Re: Do 777-200 pilots fly 777-300s and vice versa?

Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:52 pm

aeropix wrote:
tavong wrote:
did EK ever had any PW 777?


No, just RR and GE variants, and the Rolls Royce ones will be phased out with the last -300(non ER) aircraft making the fleet all GE.



how different are the RR and GE versions from a pilots standpoint?
 
skyhawkmatthew
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Re: Do 777-200 pilots fly 777-300s and vice versa?

Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:06 am

DFWflightpath wrote:

how different are the RR and GE versions from a pilots standpoint?


Comparing the RR -300 and the GE -300ER, the only difference you can see in the flight deck is that the primary engine parameter on the RR is EPR rather than N1.

There is a staggering difference in performance, though. The -300 is very thrust-limited: when heavy it's slow to climb, and your maximum altitude is limited by the thrust output of the engines. As an example, in a low-airspeed situation, you often would need to descend to recover airspeed. The -300ER is the opposite. Even at very high weights, it has impressive take-off and climb performance, but has a somewhat limited maximum altitude as despite the massively increased weight over the -300, the wing is almost the same size. In the same airspeed decay situation as a -300, though, the GE90 can fairly easily push you back up to speed without forcing a descent.

This is futher illustrated by the fact that the 777X variants, with their larger wings, will actually have less thrust from their GE9X than the -300ER's GE90. The -300ER essentially uses brute force to get in the air!
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