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WPvsMW
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Why would ferry pilots prefer KOA to HNL?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:36 am

http://hnlrarebirds.blogspot.com/2017/0 ... h-ywa.html

New 737-8FE for VA en route to Oz. Do the pilots even have input, or is it all Dispatcher?
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Why would ferry pilots prefer KOA to HNL?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:37 am

Less busy airport? Lower fees?
 
COSPN
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Re: Why would ferry pilots prefer KOA to HNL?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:39 am

Closer to the mainland than HNL less crowded
Last edited by COSPN on Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Why would ferry pilots prefer KOA to HNL?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:40 am

Could be KOA is shorter distance for entire routing to Australia.

Also KOA used by many airlines as their primary Hawaii ETOPS airport due to its more favorable location providing greater ETOPS coverage.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Why would ferry pilots prefer KOA to HNL?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:46 am

https://hidot.hawaii.gov/airports/files ... Flight.pdf for 763s.
HNL data is easy to find... .don't know KOA data.... but fuel costs would be significantly higher at KOA vs. HNL. The airports are about 170 miles apart, so GC routing variation should be insignificant. I suspect a residence or romance could be involved. :couple:
 
rbavfan
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Re: Why would ferry pilots prefer KOA to HNL?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:56 am

I agree with the flyingclrs727 KOA will have 1: Lower landing fees. 2: Fuel cost not that much higher than HNL (remember Hawaiian as lots of flights there, thus they keep lots of fuel. Also as all hawaiian airports have fuel shipped so cost won't be much different.) 3: Less congestion for quicker in and out for delivery flights.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Why would ferry pilots prefer KOA to HNL?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:38 am

Fuel is significantly more expensive at KOA.

Plain Jet A at KOA. $5.94/g https://flightaware.com/resources/airport/PHKO
Plain Jet A at HNL. $5.40/g https://flightaware.com/resources/airport/PHNL

B737 fuel cap. ~5,300... round numbers 5,000 x $.50 USD 2,500.

VA doesn't operate at HNL or KOA, but... VA could have contract pricing vs. FBO rack rate.
 
777PHX
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Re: Why would ferry pilots prefer KOA to HNL?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:50 am

I've seen delivery flights using LIH before as well.
 
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7BOEING7
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Re: Why would ferry pilots prefer KOA to HNL?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:53 am

All of the above.

Over the years 737's out of Boeing Field have had two choices for general routing to Eastern Asia/Australia -- the shorter cold/windy northern route or the longer warm/tropical route.

On the longer route most customers and those flights Boeing was providing flight crews for (pilots/navigators) would go thru HNL because of the available support and Waikiki was the preferred stop for an overnight or two. After a fuel stop in Majuro followed by an overnight in Saipan it would be home base the next night. Initially the international airport on Guam was used but Saipan proved to be a more user friendly stop.

Ansett used to go thru Hilo but the time I went with them the HF radio went inop so they ended up flying up to HNL the next day anyway to get help from Aloha. Everybody in the Aloha hangar came out to checkout the 737-300 New Gen while it was being repaired -- they hoped to have some soon.

At least once a combined longer/shorter route was used. When the first 737-300 for a Chinese carrier (Yunnan) was over half way to HNL from BFI we discovered we didn't have enough fuel so we returned to BFI. We had flight planned based on a 25 knot headwind which in reality was closer to 125 knots. The next day we headed for Cold Bay in the Aleutians but due to an over limit crosswind ended up at King Salmon for refueling. Fortunately that model of the 737 still had overwing fueling ports because pressure fueling was not available. We finally landed at HNL later that afternoon, after which the flight was uneventful.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Why would ferry pilots prefer KOA to HNL?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:24 am

WPvsMW wrote:
Fuel is significantly more expensive at KOA.

Plain Jet A at KOA. $5.94/g https://flightaware.com/resources/airport/PHKO
Plain Jet A at HNL. $5.40/g https://flightaware.com/resources/airport/PHNL

B737 fuel cap. ~5,300... round numbers 5,000 x $.50 USD 2,500.

VA doesn't operate at HNL or KOA, but... VA could have contract pricing vs. FBO rack rate.

LOL! Airlines don't play list price. They have world wide fuel providers that negotiate a rate that is doesn't vary much within a region.
 
77H
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Re: Why would ferry pilots prefer KOA to HNL?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:29 am

Very interesting thread topic. I've often wondered the same.

I actually used to work at C&C off Lagoon and handled quite a few delivery flights. Surprisingly they are not coordinated very far in advance.
In addition to setting up ground transportation and hotels for the crews we were often asked to set up leisure activities during their layovers. This leads me to suspect a lot of it has to do with pilot/crew preference.

As 32 pointed out, most major airlines in good financial standing have contract rates worldwide so fuel pricing is probably not a primary reasoning. Landing fees may be slightly less at KOA over HNL but probably not enough for the airlines to select one over the other.

Airspace congestion is probably not of much concern because most delivery flights park on South Ramp which is a short taxi to the 8R. And as you've pointed out HNL and KOA are fairly close together so difference in flight time/distance is negligible especially considering the planes are empty.

The only thing I can think of may be availability of ramp space at the FBOs. HNL receives the lions share of new delivery ferries and perhaps airlines like VA don't want to fuss over it much.

It's been a few years since I worked in that sector. If I still had any contacts over there I'd ask them to talk to a delivery crew and ask.

77H
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Why would ferry pilots prefer KOA to HNL?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:45 am

C&C is about $0.50 a gallon cheaper for Jet A than the other FBOs at HNL. Compared to auto gas stations that price within pennies... than's huge. Any thoughts about why?

C&C is certainly the classiest FBO around. I sort of miss the funkiness of Air Services Hawaii in the 80s and 90s.
 
26point2
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Re: Why would ferry pilots prefer KOA to HNL?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:12 am

Why go to HNL at all?

To the OP.. Why would you want to stop in HNL? KOA is better suited for tech stops for all reasons mentioned above.

Euro-N America deliveries don't stop at JFK either. Makes no sense.
 
airbazar
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Re: Why would ferry pilots prefer KOA to HNL?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:36 pm

The airline just wrote a check for millions of $$ to pay for the plane. I don't think fuel cost at KOA vs. HNL will be a significant point of consideration.
That's like me trying to buy a car and in the end, refuse to close the deal because the dealer won't give me a full tank of gas :)
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Why would ferry pilots prefer KOA to HNL?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:52 pm

Sort of related, Boeing goes to KOA a lot for test flying too. Believe it or not, they go to Kona for icing testing (at altitude, of course). The 787 and KC-46 have each been to KOA a number of times. Boeing did some alternate navigation testing to KOA with a 737NG.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Why would ferry pilots prefer KOA to HNL?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:04 pm

Occasionally on a delivery flight there will be some logbook items since planes aren't always perfect. The flight to Hawaii is the first long cold soak flight for the airplanes since test flights usually aren't over 4 hours. I'd prefer to go to HNL because there will be a whole lot more spare parts in HNL than KOA if something is needed. UA has a quite capable maintenance facility at HNL just in case something happens. At KOA, you are stuck.
 
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redzeppelin
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Re: Why would ferry pilots prefer KOA to HNL?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:24 pm

The HNL Rarebirds blog linked by the OP has some great data on trans-pacific 737 deliveries. As I understand the list, all of the flights operate via HNL unless otherwise specified. Here is the 2017 list so far: http://hnlrarebirds.blogspot.com/p/2017-737s.html

It looks like VA specifically avoids HNL. VA deliveries this year have gone via either KOA or LIH. All VA deliveries in 2015 and 2016 went via LIH.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Why would ferry pilots prefer KOA to HNL?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:00 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
Occasionally on a delivery flight there will be some logbook items since planes aren't always perfect. The flight to Hawaii is the first long cold soak flight for the airplanes since test flights usually aren't over 4 hours. I'd prefer to go to HNL because there will be a whole lot more spare parts in HNL than KOA if something is needed. UA has a quite capable maintenance facility at HNL just in case something happens. At KOA, you are stuck.

An international airline is not going to have any parts on any of the islands. If a part is needed it can be sent AOG on any of the major airlines that fly to KOA every single day.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Why would ferry pilots prefer KOA to HNL?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:04 pm

32andBelow wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
Occasionally on a delivery flight there will be some logbook items since planes aren't always perfect. The flight to Hawaii is the first long cold soak flight for the airplanes since test flights usually aren't over 4 hours. I'd prefer to go to HNL because there will be a whole lot more spare parts in HNL than KOA if something is needed. UA has a quite capable maintenance facility at HNL just in case something happens. At KOA, you are stuck.

An international airline is not going to have any parts on any of the islands. If a part is needed it can be sent AOG on any of the major airlines that fly to KOA every single day.


Airlines borrow, lease and buy parts from other airlines all the time. Smaller items like lights, panels, switches, relays etc are easily found in HNL. It's harder to find some of those items in KOA, especially for a 737. An airline doesn't want to wait a day for a part. KOA isn't a terribly remote place like Majuro is since Alaska, United, Delta and Hawaiian will have some parts there and mechanics are available, but HNL has more resources just in case a part is needed.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Why would ferry pilots prefer KOA to HNL?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:10 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
Occasionally on a delivery flight there will be some logbook items since planes aren't always perfect. The flight to Hawaii is the first long cold soak flight for the airplanes since test flights usually aren't over 4 hours. I'd prefer to go to HNL because there will be a whole lot more spare parts in HNL than KOA if something is needed. UA has a quite capable maintenance facility at HNL just in case something happens. At KOA, you are stuck.

An international airline is not going to have any parts on any of the islands. If a part is needed it can be sent AOG on any of the major airlines that fly to KOA every single day.


Airlines borrow, lease and buy parts from other airlines all the time. Smaller items like lights, panels, switches, relays etc are easily found in HNL. It's harder to find some of those items in KOA, especially for a 737. An airline doesn't want to wait a day for a part. KOA isn't a terribly remote place like Majuro is since Alaska, United, Delta and Hawaiian will have some parts there and mechanics are available, but HNL has more resources just in case a part is needed.

So if it is in HNL it can be sent AOG on the next Hawaiian flight to KOA that is probably in like 12 minutes. It is not the end of the world if an airplane sits, especially one that isn't even in service yet, and chances are a switch isn't going to break on a delivery flight, and if it did the crew will say it "broke on arrival to our destination"
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Why would ferry pilots prefer KOA to HNL?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:15 pm

32andBelow wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
An international airline is not going to have any parts on any of the islands. If a part is needed it can be sent AOG on any of the major airlines that fly to KOA every single day.


Airlines borrow, lease and buy parts from other airlines all the time. Smaller items like lights, panels, switches, relays etc are easily found in HNL. It's harder to find some of those items in KOA, especially for a 737. An airline doesn't want to wait a day for a part. KOA isn't a terribly remote place like Majuro is since Alaska, United, Delta and Hawaiian will have some parts there and mechanics are available, but HNL has more resources just in case a part is needed.

So if it is in HNL it can be sent AOG on the next Hawaiian flight to KOA that is probably in like 12 minutes. It is not the end of the world if an airplane sits, especially one that isn't even in service yet, and chances are a switch isn't going to break on a delivery flight, and if it did the crew will say it "broke on arrival to our destination"


That isn't a reason why KOA would be preferred over HNL
 
32andBelow
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Re: Why would ferry pilots prefer KOA to HNL?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:17 pm

This forum just over-analyzes every single thing to a level which airlines themselves are not concerned about.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Why would ferry pilots prefer KOA to HNL?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:36 pm

redzeppelin gets the Root Cause Analyst prize... VA simply doesn't like HNL. The proof is VA's custom of deliveries via LIH and KOA. So, it's VA's choice, not the PIC's or Dispatcher's choice, in this case.
 
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TVNWZ
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Re: Why would ferry pilots prefer KOA to HNL?

Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:02 pm

32andBelow wrote:
This forum just over-analyzes every single thing to a level which airlines themselves are not concerned about.


+1
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Why would ferry pilots prefer KOA to HNL?

Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:06 am

A delivery flight is probably up to the crew as long as not ridiculously high priced. VA likes Kona and Lihue, so what? Boeing deliveries are often handled by Jeppesen (Boeing-owned) and they use World Fuel Service for contract fuel. Not the FBO rack price and crew likely don't know the price charged, just a delivery receipt.

GF
 
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XAM2175
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Re: Why would ferry pilots prefer KOA to HNL?

Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:46 am

QF operated a delivery flight from Everett to Sydney via LHR once, so I suppose that dispatcher and/or PIC also don't like HNL...

:roll:
 
Redbellyguppy
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Re: Why would ferry pilots prefer KOA to HNL?

Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:58 am

No real world experience with this specifically but given the choice of, say, lax or ont or sfo/oak for a tech stop if go with less hassle less congestion for sure. And the hotels in koa are nicer if you ask me.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Why would ferry pilots prefer KOA to HNL?

Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:55 pm

QF set a LHR-SYD record non-stop on that delivery

GF
 
BravoOne
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Re: Why would ferry pilots prefer KOA to HNL?

Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:46 pm

Free Mai Tai's at the local FBO when you RON there comes to mind. Na...what was I thinking.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Why would ferry pilots prefer KOA to HNL?

Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:48 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
A delivery flight is probably up to the crew as long as not ridiculously high priced. VA likes Kona and Lihue, so what? Boeing deliveries are often handled by Jeppesen (Boeing-owned) and they use World Fuel Service for contract fuel. Not the FBO rack price and crew likely don't know the price charged, just a delivery receipt.

GF


To be clear though Boeing has it;s own dispatch office and uses Jepp flight planing services.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Why would ferry pilots prefer KOA to HNL?

Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:45 pm

Correct

GF
 
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7BOEING7
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Re: Why would ferry pilots prefer KOA to HNL?

Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:01 pm

XAM2175 wrote:
QF operated a delivery flight from Everett to Sydney via LHR once, so I suppose that dispatcher and/or PIC also don't like HNL...


That was a special record flight (as noted above by GalaxyFlyer) with a partially stripped down 747-400. Most QAN delivery flights out of Everett flew either directly to SEA or SFO and entered into revenue service. The SEA flights were special one-off charter flights.
 
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7BOEING7
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Re: Why would ferry pilots prefer KOA to HNL?

Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:06 pm

BravoOne wrote:

To be clear though Boeing has it;s own dispatch office and uses Jepp flight planing services.


Boeing has their own dispatch office but many if not a majority of the deliveries use their own dispatch office -- the paperwork is just sent to Boeing who hands it over to the customer flight crew.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Why would ferry pilots prefer KOA to HNL?

Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:06 am

I know some of the planners at Jepp in SJC. They loved doing the 787 tours while still experimental--loads of work to plan the,.

GF
 
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XAM2175
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Re: Why would ferry pilots prefer KOA to HNL?

Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:57 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
QF set a LHR-SYD record non-stop on that delivery

7BOEING7 wrote:
That was a special record flight (as noted above by GalaxyFlyer) with a partially stripped down 747-400.


Apologies - my remark was made sarcastically but that may not have been sufficiently apparent. I did understand though the stripping was very light indeed - the fit-out was pretty much complete apart from some galley kit, the slides on all but 1L and 1R, the ULD locks, and a few other things that could be fitted from stock in SYD.

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