WPvsMW
Topic Author
Posts: 2113
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Flight displays and snowy taxiways

Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:38 pm

Scenario: RWY is plowed, long landing, remaining exits and taxiways (and lights) snow-covered. Can/would you select and navigate a covered taxiway based on the flight display/GPS, or wait for help? What if a tug or guide truck is a long wait... and you've got to clear the runway?
 
mmo
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Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:04 pm

Re: Flight displays and snowy taxiways

Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:58 pm

Why not ask for a 180 on the runway if the conditions allow it? How much snow is there, how are the taxiway lights, how is the braking action on unplowed taxiways? You really haven't provided enough information.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
BravoOne
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Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: Flight displays and snowy taxiways

Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:05 pm

I don't believe the ground/map displays are approved for this practice. I'm sure someone will correct me if i'm wrong.:) Sounds like the taxiway should be NOTAM/SNOWTAM closed if it was that bad. After all, what could go wrong??
 
mmo
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Re: Flight displays and snowy taxiways

Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:54 pm

You would have a very tough time explaining to the Chief Pilot why you elected to use the ND and the EFB both of which are not approved for taxiing.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
Woodreau
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Re: Flight displays and snowy taxiways

Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:19 am

Until I'm off the runway, the runway is mine, and I don't really care if tower has to send airplanes around if I can't safely exit the runway.
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Flight displays and snowy taxiways

Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:58 am

While true, I don't think that was the OP asked.
 
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asqx
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Re: Flight displays and snowy taxiways

Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:15 am

In all honesty, from experience if an airport was to choose not to clear all taxiways it would be the ones in the middle of the runway that they left snow covered and would clear the ones at both ends.

That being said, if I were to find myself in the OP's scenario, I would simply turn around on the runway and back taxi to a cleared taxiway. I know I would be able to do this because my airline's SOP requires a minimum cleared runway width for landing that is equal to or greater than the turn radius required to do a 180 turn on the ground.
 
Max Q
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Re: Flight displays and snowy taxiways

Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:17 am

WPvsMW wrote:
Scenario: RWY is plowed, long landing, remaining exits and taxiways (and lights) snow-covered. Can/would you select and navigate a covered taxiway based on the flight display/GPS, or wait for help? What if a tug or guide truck is a long wait... and you've got to clear the runway?



Well, the taxiways at EWR have luminous
poles on their borders spaced at intervals
extending well above the ground

Very helpful in snow
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


Guns are a malignant cancer that are destroying our society
 
WPvsMW
Topic Author
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Re: Flight displays and snowy taxiways

Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:33 am

Thanks for the replies. The scenario is inspired by the current bomb cyclone in the NE US.
The 180 turn on the active runway (I own it until I'm off it) certainly works (or if the last exits on the active to have been cleared... but assume the last exits are blocked). IIRC, the Garmin flight display I use has a 17 meter "ownship" accuracy on a displayed airport map. That's not enough for me to "be a snowplow" to reach the terminal, but I wondered if other flight displays/GPS might have better accuracy.
 
Flow2706
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Re: Flight displays and snowy taxiways

Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:25 am

Not sure about more "modern" aircraft, but on A320 there is no way you would use the ND to navigate on the Ground. Its not intended to be used for this purpose, it doesn't even show the taxiway and the accuracy is not good enough either...not too sure about the Lido EFB software, however in our setup it can only show the aircraft position on the enroute chart (the reason being that it is not certified to be used for navigation, therefore it will not show the position on departure/arrival or taxi charts even if it would be technically possible).
 
Legs
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Re: Flight displays and snowy taxiways

Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:36 am

Mobile phone and google maps with the satellite photo overlay?

/s
 
mmo
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Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:04 pm

Re: Flight displays and snowy taxiways

Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:01 am

Legs wrote:
Mobile phone and google maps with the satellite photo overlay?

/s


Would love to be a fly on the wall in the conversation with the Chief Pilot when you explain how you ended up on the infield! Of course, shortly after that, you are handed your termination letter. Better hope there is a good union on the property!!
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
Woodreau
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Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:44 am

Re: Flight displays and snowy taxiways

Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:51 am

My remark about the runway is mine was in response to the OPs “you’ve got to clear the runway”. Yes you clear the runway after landing. But in the situation the OP is posing, how to clear the runway if the taxiway is snow covered, if I can safely do it then I’ll clear the runway. If I cant then I will take however long I need to clear the runway.

You can see where you are on the efb on a taxiway diagram. The capability is there, but as far as I know, ownship position display on the efb is supposed to be disabled so that you can’t use it in order for the air carrier’s efb program to be approved and certified by the FAA. I wouldn't use it to taxi an aircraft. But guys bring their own personal gps devices or use the tablets internal gps and display own ship on their efb all the time.

Normally at larger airports there is always going to be some sort of airport operations people on duty. So it really depends on so many different infinite combination of variables , is the aircraft going to slide when you attempt a 180 turn on the runway? Are there are centerline lights? Even though in pavement lights are covered in snow, some illumination is going to show through depending on how much snow is covering the lights. The taxiway edge lights protrude above the ground 1 maybe 2 feet tall so if the edge lights are completely buried the snow is really deep and the bottom of my engine pods are dragging making their own snow wake/trail in the snow I wouldn’t want to be taxiing there anyway.
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Flight displays and snowy taxiways

Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:12 pm

On the Global Express with Fusion avionics, we could have ownship overplayed on a 15” screen, so detail was quite fine and at least as accurate as any GPS display. We’d use it to backup ground navigation in normal conditions including dark. Would I use it to find snow covered surfaces? NO, I wouldn’t.

GF
 
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Florianopolis
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Re: Flight displays and snowy taxiways

Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:16 am

Doesn't turning around on the runway require another clearance?
 
BravoOne
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Re: Flight displays and snowy taxiways

Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:46 pm

Florianopolis wrote:
Doesn't turning around on the runway require another clearance?


Of course it does. You don'y just make this stuff as you go along. Making a 180 on the runway in snowy icy conditions is not great choice especially in anything larger than a 737-800.
 
mmo
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Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:04 pm

Re: Flight displays and snowy taxiways

Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:39 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Florianopolis wrote:
Doesn't turning around on the runway require another clearance?


Of course it does. You don'y just make this stuff as you go along. Making a 180 on the runway in snowy icy conditions is not great choice especially in anything larger than a 737-800.


If you are given a choice of doing a 180 or taking an unplowed taxiway, there is no choice at all. Certainly, you aren't going to shutdown and wait on the runway. Although getting a tug out would be an option.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
BravoOne
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Re: Flight displays and snowy taxiways

Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:37 pm

mmo wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
Florianopolis wrote:
Doesn't turning around on the runway require another clearance?


Of course it does. You don'y just make this stuff as you go along. Making a 180 on the runway in snowy icy conditions is not great choice especially in anything larger than a 737-800.


If you are given a choice of doing a 180 or taking an unplowed taxiway, there is no choice at all. Certainly, you aren't going to shutdown and wait on the runway. Although getting a tug out would be an option.


Come on...you know what I meant:)

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