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WPvsMW
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Airport Moving Maps and Proximity Warnings

Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:27 pm

Yet another ramp collision at JFK...
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1382951&p=20071521&hilit=777+jfk#p20071521
Do any Airport Moving Maps (either portable or installed EFBs) sound proximity warnings? The Jeppesen AMM I use doesn't... but do the Part 121 and 135 EFBs???
 
Woodreau
Posts: 1935
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:44 am

Re: Airport Moving Maps and Proximity Warnings

Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:33 pm

Nope

An FAA approved efb for 121 operators doesn’t know where it is on this earth.

Nor is it aware that other aircraft exist.
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Airport Moving Maps and Proximity Warnings

Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:04 pm

There's an STC that needs doing... AMM + aircraft type + alert if wingtips/nose/empennage are on a path beyond taxiway boundaries.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Airport Moving Maps and Proximity Warnings

Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:15 pm

NO, just look out the windows or stop.

GF
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Airport Moving Maps and Proximity Warnings

Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:44 am

Appears to be declining competency at KU doing just that. "Controlled taxi into stationary object" warning.
 
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gunsontheroof
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Re: Airport Moving Maps and Proximity Warnings

Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:03 am

If I'm not mistaken, no moving map is certified for taxi operations. They're for reference purposes only.
Picked a hell of a week to quit sniffing glue.
 
mmo
Posts: 2059
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:04 pm

Re: Airport Moving Maps and Proximity Warnings

Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:10 am

WPvsMW wrote:
There's an STC that needs doing... AMM + aircraft type + alert if wingtips/nose/empennage are on a path beyond taxiway boundaries.


I must be missing something. What ever happened to the good old MK I eyeballs? I live having all the information which is available today. I am a big believer in technology, but you can't be dependent on it. It should, in my opinion, be an aid not a crutch.

I will give you an example. Several years ago, I was giving line training to a new cadet/FO. I had flown with this pilot several times and he was absolutely the smartest FO I had ever flown with. You could ask him any question and he could spout the book answer out verbatim. However, there was a big gap in his ability to take all that knowledge and put it to use. We just happened to be flying a freighter flight into SHJ. We were about 100NM out and had just contacted Dubai Control. They asked if we would like a visual to 30, he was the PF. He had programmed the ILS 12 and asked me to decline the routing. We talked for a few moments as I tried to convince him we should do that. However, in the end he didn't want to change. I replied to control, we would like the ILS 12. Control replied there was a runway change in DXB and we could expect a visual to 30. If you could have seen the look on the FO's face. He was absolutely petrified of having to do a visual. At that point he ceased to be a pilot and was merely a passenger.

So, off we went Direct to SHJ.

I am a big believer of "trust but verify". I can't remember our exact altitude but I believe in the 3:1 approach to things. I think we were at FL330, so it would take us roughly 100 miles for the descent, 10 miles to slow and configure and - 10 because we were going on the other side of the airport. So, we needed to descent. Our clearance gave us the pilot's discretion descent. So, like a good FO, he gave the aircraft to me while he programmed the FMC. I called out of 330 and began the descent. As we got closer and closer he became more and more flustered. I was watching him and he was trying to figure out how to input the turn points for the downwind, base and final turns. He had paper out and just couldn't make it work. I suggested he just leave a discontinuity and load the visual for 30 and have a gap from SHJ to the approach. He seemed happy with the solution. His aircraft now.

Soon, we were handed over to SHJ tower. I made the call and we were about 20 miles out. Tower then cleared us to enter downwind and call turning base. I was not in a single seat aircraft. He absolutely froze as his plan had become a dream. We had to enter downwind on our own. He gave control to me while he re-programmed the FMC. The next call is SHJ tower telling us to keep the final turn within 4 miles as there was arriving traffic into DXB. Finally, the breaking point occurred and the FO just gave up and told me he did't want to fly. Not a problem.

It was the time for a visual. Like a good Instructor, I commanded FD's off, A/P off, and to extend the centerlng of 30 and down we went. I tried to explain just what I was doing by using the runway length to measure distance, computing our turn based on TAS, all those things you do in a Cessna 150.

That evening, I hd a knock on my hotel door and the FO was there and we spend a good 4 hours talking about visual approaches. It finally boiled down to, how do I put the fixes into the FMC. Certainly, that information had to be in the FMC for the aircraft to fly....it had to be.

Again, a 744 flies just like a 150........
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
Flow2706
Posts: 243
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:20 pm

Re: Airport Moving Maps and Proximity Warnings

Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:07 am

mmo wrote:
I must be missing something. What ever happened to the good old MK I eyeballs? I live having all the information which is available today. I am a big believer in technology, but you can't be dependent on it. It should, in my opinion, be an aid not a crutch.

I will give you an example. Several years ago, I was giving line training to a new cadet/FO. I had flown with this pilot several times and he was absolutely the smartest FO I had ever flown with. You could ask him any question and he could spout the book answer out verbatim. However, there was a big gap in his ability to take all that knowledge and put it to use. We just happened to be flying a freighter flight into SHJ. We were about 100NM out and had just contacted Dubai Control. They asked if we would like a visual to 30, he was the PF. He had programmed the ILS 12 and asked me to decline the routing. We talked for a few moments as I tried to convince him we should do that. However, in the end he didn't want to change. I replied to control, we would like the ILS 12. Control replied there was a runway change in DXB and we could expect a visual to 30. If you could have seen the look on the FO's face. He was absolutely petrified of having to do a visual. At that point he ceased to be a pilot and was merely a passenger.

So, off we went Direct to SHJ.

I am a big believer of "trust but verify". I can't remember our exact altitude but I believe in the 3:1 approach to things. I think we were at FL330, so it would take us roughly 100 miles for the descent, 10 miles to slow and configure and - 10 because we were going on the other side of the airport. So, we needed to descent. Our clearance gave us the pilot's discretion descent. So, like a good FO, he gave the aircraft to me while he programmed the FMC. I called out of 330 and began the descent. As we got closer and closer he became more and more flustered. I was watching him and he was trying to figure out how to input the turn points for the downwind, base and final turns. He had paper out and just couldn't make it work. I suggested he just leave a discontinuity and load the visual for 30 and have a gap from SHJ to the approach. He seemed happy with the solution. His aircraft now.

Soon, we were handed over to SHJ tower. I made the call and we were about 20 miles out. Tower then cleared us to enter downwind and call turning base. I was not in a single seat aircraft. He absolutely froze as his plan had become a dream. We had to enter downwind on our own. He gave control to me while he re-programmed the FMC. The next call is SHJ tower telling us to keep the final turn within 4 miles as there was arriving traffic into DXB. Finally, the breaking point occurred and the FO just gave up and told me he did't want to fly. Not a problem.

It was the time for a visual. Like a good Instructor, I commanded FD's off, A/P off, and to extend the centerlng of 30 and down we went. I tried to explain just what I was doing by using the runway length to measure distance, computing our turn based on TAS, all those things you do in a Cessna 150.

That evening, I hd a knock on my hotel door and the FO was there and we spend a good 4 hours talking about visual approaches. It finally boiled down to, how do I put the fixes into the FMC. Certainly, that information had to be in the FMC for the aircraft to fly....it had to be.

Again, a 744 flies just like a 150........

I absolutely agree with you on that one. People are lacking the skills to actually fly an airplane...I (still an FO) flew with Captains that wouldn't let me fly auto thrust off in normal/good conditions (which is allowed in my company) as that would "increase their monitoring workload". Just a few days ago we ended up about 4000ft high on profile at around FL150 due to some unexpected shortcuts. On the A320 you can not get full speedbrakes with the autopilot on, so I switched the AP off and extended the speedbrakes to full...the Captain seemed to be surprised by this (not in a good way) and suggested to extend the gear (at FL150!) instead (and to put the AP back in)...in the end we ended up flying 10nm in level flight with gear down and engines spooled up to around 70% and wasting loads of fuel...some people just don't like flying the airplane like and airplane it seems, but I guess this also has to do something with the way pilots are trained nowadays (and some of the old guys adapted this attitude it seems)...
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6262
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Airport Moving Maps and Proximity Warnings

Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:03 pm

The captains adapted because it was easier than actually trying to mentor airmanship, do some instructing and insisting on progress. Being a captain isn’t just occupying the left seat and bigger money.

GF
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Airport Moving Maps and Proximity Warnings

Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:13 pm

On that point, some can teach, and others can't teach. The teaching skillset doesn't automatically come with four stripes. There are also unempathetic, inarticulate, rote-speaking CFIs, even though their profession is teaching.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6262
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Airport Moving Maps and Proximity Warnings

Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:34 pm

True enough and they leave a stain the sky, in Ernie Gann’s phrase.

GF
 
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fr8mech
Posts: 8073
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Re: Airport Moving Maps and Proximity Warnings

Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:47 pm

A proximity alerting system would just add more workload to the cockpit because, in a terminal area, when in close proximity to other aircraft, it would continually alert. Plus, what if an aircraft is under tow? Not much the flight crew can do except pass the alert on to the ground folks.

No, the best way to minimize the chance for aircraft mating, and aircraft/GSE crossbreeding, is for all involved in the process to remain vigilant and pay freaking attention to what you’re doing, regardless of how many times you’ve done it.

I can relay a quick anecdote, that speaks to vigilance and situational awareness. Sometime around 20 or so years ago I was taxiing a Jumbo onto a crowded ramp after a maintenance run at around 0100 local. I was going to be turning into a spot with aircraft to my left and right. It was a fairly precise maneuver, but I had plenty of room. I didn’t do it often, but the marshaling folks did it multiple times every night. I passed a DC8 on my left and then turned left to line up with the marshaller. I’m expecting a continuous right turn into the spot. Well, the marshaller gives me a hard left. I start left, as we are trained to do...obey the marshaller..., and the eye/brain/arm/leg interface kicks in and I slam on the brakes before I even know I was doing it. For some inexplicable reason, the marshaller was going to put me into the DC8. We all sat there for about 5 seconds, with the marshaller insisting I turn left, before he suddenly stops, crosses wands, resets and starts me to the right...as expected.

Nothing beats paying attention to your surroundings and understanding what you expect and what’s expected of you and making sure the 2 are pretty close to each other.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Airport Moving Maps and Proximity Warnings

Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:39 pm

I agree that an AMM/proximity alarm should only supplement, not replace, situational awareness on the flight deck... just like terrain proximity alarms. The AMM/proximity alarm boundaries would be the taxiway boundaries, whether painted or not. If any object is over the taxiway boundary on the a/c path... mild tone alarm (so human now locates object and determines threat level). If the path of the ownship will cross a taxiway boundary other than that of the intended gate, mild tone alarm. If a boundary excursion will cause imminent impact .... strong alarm and audio "brake now, brake now". AMM/proximity alarm would deactivate once a/c is within gate area.

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