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Last moments of a crosswind landing

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:23 pm
by IFlyVeryLittle
Is there a need (or best practice) to snap a landing plane into straight-head flight just before touching down on one of those sideways-crabbing crosswind landings, or is there enough "give" built into the main landing gear to absorb that kind of off-center force? Thanks.

Re: Last moments of a crosswind landing

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:45 pm
by Redbellyguppy
Treat your airplane nicely and it will return the favor. That said you can set it down crabbed if you need to and certainly in some types, you have to. The 744 will accept quite a bit of crab and it is preferable to dragging an outboard engine wing low...

Re: Last moments of a crosswind landing

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:15 pm
by CosmicCruiser
not all airliners can be landed in a crab.

Re: Last moments of a crosswind landing

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:22 pm
by BravoOne
Stop, this is going to be a good thread:)

Re: Last moments of a crosswind landing

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:29 pm
by DashTrash
I've flown a couple of airplanes where you kick out the crab as the wheels touch. There's honestly not much to it, you just use your feet to gently align the centerline of the airplane with the centerline of the runway.

Re: Last moments of a crosswind landing

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:59 pm
by GalaxyFlyer
There’s no “snapping” or “kicking” involved. A gentle push on the appropriate rudder pedal will align the gear with the runway, sometimes combined with a 3-5 degrees of wing down.

GF

Re: Last moments of a crosswind landing

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:07 pm
by eisenbach
Remembers me on my only crosswind landing - a lot of stress for a non-pilot as myself. Heads up for all pilots out there :-)

http://youtu.be/yg9QMloUkfE

Re: Last moments of a crosswind landing

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:15 pm
by CosmicCruiser
we had to have the crab out by about 200-300'agl.

Re: Last moments of a crosswind landing

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:17 am
by GalaxyFlyer
Why so early, CC? Here’s the best video of a 747 crosswind landing I’ve seen.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GW0Mv15t2Pg

Re: Last moments of a crosswind landing

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:28 am
by Florianopolis
A lot of modern airliners don't have the wingtip and engine clearance to land in a steady sideslip tracking the runway centerline at their max crosswind limits without coming very very close to scraping something other than tires on the ground.

In other words, that technique you learned in your high-wing C182 is not exactly followed on the big airliners. (Off topic but the everyday airline pilot is probably not using power to control their descent on the glideslope, either. If they're low, they pull up, and the autothrottle/thrust is keeping them on speed.*)

Anyway, decrabbing at the flare is a good compromise to reduce landing gear stresses while also not scratching the airplane.

Here's lots more reading. You can scroll through it and be even more confused:
http://code7700.com/crosswind_landing.htm
https://skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/179.pdf

*And then when they try to fly it like that and the AT doesn't do its thing, sometimes they crash.

Re: Last moments of a crosswind landing

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:43 am
by CosmicCruiser
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Why so early, CC? Here’s the best video of a 747 crosswind landing I’ve seen.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GW0Mv15t2Pg


I think they didn't want any last minute antics in the landing. If you take out the crab at the last second in any significant wind there will be a side load as the wind will push the jet. We were taught to have 0 crab and 0 drift early so the rest of the landing is small adjustments. I was flying the DC-10 & MD-11 and though we all know why you didn't want any side loads I think it was pretty consistent across the fleet. Of course now with all the 777 they have there's a different technique with it.

Re: Last moments of a crosswind landing

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:50 am
by Redbellyguppy
I hold the crab to 50 ft then start easing it out in the flare. How would you shoot an ILS if you were required to have it out by 200-300?

Re: Last moments of a crosswind landing

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:56 am
by Redbellyguppy
Actually I'm totally trimming for airspeed and using thrust to maintain glideslope when I'm hand flying a 737. It's not that far from being a huge 182.

Re: Last moments of a crosswind landing

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:58 am
by Max Q
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
There’s no “snapping” or “kicking” involved. A gentle push on the appropriate rudder pedal will align the gear with the runway, sometimes combined with a 3-5 degrees of wing down.

GF



Very well said, not sure how the ‘kick it straight’ bs originated but that’s not how it’s done


Push off the drift is the correct technique
it may be semantics to some but it’s epically poor technique to imply there’s ever any ‘kicking’

Re: Last moments of a crosswind landing

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:27 am
by Florianopolis
Redbellyguppy wrote:
Actually I'm totally trimming for airspeed and using thrust to maintain glideslope when I'm hand flying a 737. It's not that far from being a huge 182.


Yeah, I was just clumsily making this same point from an old Boeing Aero article on AOA. Please forgive me, as english is my first language. It's just a question of whether you're doing it manually and directly, or you're in the loop sharing the job with the automation, so to speak.

AOA has proved particularly useful for approach to aircraft carriers, where it is important to maintain a consistent approach attitude for each landing. In this case, "backside" approach techniques are used, where glide path is controlled primarily by changes in thrust while the aircraft is held at a fixed AOA. Use of this technique during approach on commercial jet airplanes would be contrary to the pitch commands provided by the flight director bars, and to the speed hold mode of the autothrottle, which is often used during approach.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeroma ... itary.html

Re: Last moments of a crosswind landing

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:34 pm
by BartSimpson
Now this is a very amateurish question: Wouldn't it make sense to select the pilot flying as the one who sits on the leeward side because he might have a better view to the front? Or is there not really a difference?

Re: Last moments of a crosswind landing

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:48 pm
by CosmicCruiser
Redbellyguppy wrote:
I hold the crab to 50 ft then start easing it out in the flare. How would you shoot an ILS if you were required to have it out by 200-300?


Obviously if the vis is such that you can't see the runway then you have no choice but I don't remember having a strong x-wind and low vis. Very low and it would be an A/L.

Re: Last moments of a crosswind landing

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:38 pm
by BravoOne
I had a pilot upgrading from MD11 F/O to Capt. on the same plane. Fairly unique in it's self. Hew was legally blind in one eye but he flew the airplane just fine from the right seat. When he moved over to the left seat he struggled at first with the new view out of his one good eye, especially in a crosswind condition. He overcame that and finished up just fine. Marine Corp F4 Vietnam argh!

Re: Last moments of a crosswind landing

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:23 pm
by GalaxyFlyer
BartSimpson wrote:
Now this is a very amateurish question: Wouldn't it make sense to select the pilot flying as the one who sits on the leeward side because he might have a better view to the front? Or is there not really a difference?


There’s little difference in the views. I never understood all the angst about swapping seats or diificulty in changing seats. The pilot is supposed, in VMC, to fly looking at the natural horizon, so who cares what seat there sitting in.

GF

Re: Last moments of a crosswind landing

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:35 am
by Florianopolis
IFlyVeryLittle wrote:
Is there a need (or best practice) to snap a landing plane into straight-head flight just before touching down on one of those sideways-crabbing crosswind landings, or is there enough "give" built into the main landing gear to absorb that kind of off-center force? Thanks.


There's also the B-52.

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Question for the forum: How long does it take a 737's main landing gear to return to tracking straight ahead after a real hard crosswind landing?