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Magman
Topic Author
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 3:09 pm

Rotation Speeds....

Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:29 pm

Looking for assistance in finding the VR values for the following aircraft:
• 737-800
• 747-400
• 757-200
• 767-200
• 777-200LR
• 777-300ER
• MD-11
• MD-88
I need to find the charts (or a reply with someone with specific knowledge) of the VR speeds under standard day conditions at Max Takeoff Weight. Any assistance is greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
Magman
 
Woodreau
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Re: Rotation Speeds....

Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:56 pm

Depends on the runway, atmospheric conditions not just weight

So it "depends"
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
ChrisKen
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Re: Rotation Speeds....

Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:56 pm

Woodreau wrote:
Depends on the runway, atmospheric conditions not just weight

So it "depends"

That'll be why he asked for standard day conditions. It's a defined set of values.
 
RetiredWeasel
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Re: Rotation Speeds....

Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:18 pm

Can't speak for other aircraft, but for the 747-200, atmospheric conditions affect the Vr speed very little. And runway length has nothing to do with it. For instance Vr for a max weight of 814,000 lbs, Vr is 165 kts. That's at a temp of 27 degrees C and below. 28 degrees to 32 degrees, you would add only 1 knot. If the airport elevation above 2000' then you would add 2 knots. That's it and I assume the FMC on modern aircraft would reflect similar numbers.
 
pikachu
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Re: Rotation Speeds....

Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:29 am

As Woodreau said... it depends. What does it depend on? Take off weight, flap setting, pressure altitude, and ambient air temperature.

Here are the speeds from the QRH for a B757-200.

Flaps 1: V1 176 Vr 179 V2 184
Flaps 5: V1 161 Vr 165 V2 169
Flaps 15: V1 154 Vr 157 V2 160
Flaps 20: V1 145 Vr 148 V2 152
 
pikachu
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Re: Rotation Speeds....

Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:09 am

B767-200 @ 350 000 pounds. Full thrust. (PS the 757 above is 260 000 pounds)

Flaps 1 - 160/164/167
Flaps 5 - 155/158/161
Flaps 15 - 147/150/153
Flaps 20 - 142/144/147
 
pikachu
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Re: Rotation Speeds....

Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:48 am

B777-200LR @ 360 000 KG, full thrust.

Flap 15 - 167/174/178

B777-300ER @ 840 000 POUNDS, full thrust.

Flaps 15 - 175/185/190
 
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Matt6461
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Re: Rotation Speeds....

Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:22 pm

pikachu wrote:
B777-200LR @ 360 000 KG, full thrust.

Flap 15 - 167/174/178

B777-300ER @ 840 000 POUNDS, full thrust.

Flaps 15 - 175/185/190

What's your source? You're putting 65k lbs over MTOW on the 77W.
 
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RetiredNWA
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Re: Rotation Speeds....

Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:25 pm

The disparate responses on this thread are mind-boggling.
 
pikachu
Posts: 165
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Re: Rotation Speeds....

Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:30 am

FCOM.

Matt6461 wrote:
pikachu wrote:
B777-200LR @ 360 000 KG, full thrust.

Flap 15 - 167/174/178

B777-300ER @ 840 000 POUNDS, full thrust.

Flaps 15 - 175/185/190

What's your source? You're putting 65k lbs over MTOW on the 77W.
 
mmo
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Re: Rotation Speeds....

Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:40 am

MTOW for the 777-300ER is 775,000LBS, while Max Taxi Weight is 777,000LBS.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
slcguy
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Re: Rotation Speeds....

Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:47 am

First off, the numbers stated above for the 757-200 are way out of line, they might apply for a 757-300 at MTOW but even then seem high. The 757-200 at lighter weights has some pretty low V speeds for both take off and landings.
The main determining factors in V speeds are weight and flap settings, and in the case of V1 runway length. Since the speeds used are IAS not TAS or GS, atmospheric conditions, airport elevation, power settings will have an effect on how much runway is needed to achieve these speeds but the speeds themselves will remain the same based on flap configuration and weight and won't vary much.

An example, for a hypothetical aircraft weighing 300,000lb and flap setting of 10 has V1 145, VR 150 and V2 159
Takes off at a sea level airport, temp 32 and full power, needs a 6000' runway using these speeds.
Takes off at a 5000' elevation airport, temp 90 and derated thrust needs a 11000' runway but is still using the same speeds.
 
slcguy
Posts: 422
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Re: Rotation Speeds....

Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:30 pm

Sorry previous post timed out.

The same hypothetical aircraft at 250,000lb and flap 15 may have speeds of V1 135, VR 140. V2 147
at 350,000lb and flap 5, V1 150, VR 160, V2 170 but as in above case, runway requirement will vary depending on conditions and power setting.
 
Magman
Topic Author
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 3:09 pm

Re: Rotation Speeds....

Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:40 pm

To all, thanks for your responses. With respect to conditions; I need standard day conditions which means 59F, 29.92 Baro Pressure, no head wind however, the aircraft is at maximum takeoff weight (MTOW). The only variable that I cannot account for is flap settings. What I am hoping to get is a public source for a chart that plots the Vr speed for this condition. Again, thanks for the discussion. If someone has access to this type of performance data, perhaps we can email?
--magman
 
slcguy
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Re: Rotation Speeds....

Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:07 pm

Magman, I don't think aircraft manufactures post performance charts online but you might try googling charts for specific aircraft and find some. In my flightsim days I was able to find complete performance charts and data for 737 classics online. Everything you'd ever want to know, charts for take off, climb, cruise, fuel burn, range, landing at any given weight and conditions. So I'm sure the info is out there if you look hard enough.
Last edited by slcguy on Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Magman
Topic Author
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Re: Rotation Speeds....

Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:12 pm

pikachu wrote:
As Woodreau said... it depends. What does it depend on? Take off weight, flap setting, pressure altitude, and ambient air temperature.

Here are the speeds from the QRH for a B757-200.

Flaps 1: V1 176 Vr 179 V2 184
Flaps 5: V1 161 Vr 165 V2 169
Flaps 15: V1 154 Vr 157 V2 160
Flaps 20: V1 145 Vr 148 V2 152


Pikachu - The conditions are "Standard Day" meaning 59F, 29.92 Barometric Pressure and zero head wind. The only variable not accounted for is the flap settings. Is there a "standard" or default setting?
Thanks,
Magman
 
Magman
Topic Author
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Re: Rotation Speeds....

Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:14 pm

slcguy - thanks for that. I've done a good deal of searching on the internet and have seen lots of data, particularly of the 737, but I cannot find the specific Vr data that I need for standard day ops.

Thanks again,
magman
 
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Starlionblue
Posts: 20358
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: Rotation Speeds....

Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:14 pm

Magman wrote:
pikachu wrote:
As Woodreau said... it depends. What does it depend on? Take off weight, flap setting, pressure altitude, and ambient air temperature.

Here are the speeds from the QRH for a B757-200.

Flaps 1: V1 176 Vr 179 V2 184
Flaps 5: V1 161 Vr 165 V2 169
Flaps 15: V1 154 Vr 157 V2 160
Flaps 20: V1 145 Vr 148 V2 152


Pikachu - The conditions are "Standard Day" meaning 59F, 29.92 Barometric Pressure and zero head wind. The only variable not accounted for is the flap settings. Is there a "standard" or default setting?
Thanks,
Magman


Flap setting is not the only variable. There's also obstacle clearance, runway length and wet/dry/contaminated...

There is no "standard" or "default" setting.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
slcguy
Posts: 422
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:09 pm

Re: Rotation Speeds....

Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:15 pm

The charts when you find them will give standard day conditions as well as increments of 10 degrees above and below standard, usually in C.
 
slcguy
Posts: 422
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:09 pm

Re: Rotation Speeds....

Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:29 pm

Starlion is correct, standard conditions is a base point,. Conditions, runway, terrain and other factors all play in. That's why most planes can't always take off at MTOW. The answer to your first question is still the same, at any given weight and configuration the airplane will still have set V speeds.
 
slcguy
Posts: 422
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:09 pm

Re: Rotation Speeds....

Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:42 pm

The only real exception to set V speeds is in gusty winds, On take off they might add + something to Vr and V2 and landing add + something to Vref. For landings there are usually recommended increases to Vref for wind speed and gusts. Not so much for take off but would guess most pilots gain a bit more speed before rotating in case of a loss of a gust right at lift off.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Rotation Speeds....

Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:54 pm

slcguy wrote:
Starlion is correct, standard conditions is a base point,. Conditions, runway, terrain and other factors all play in. That's why most planes can't always take off at MTOW. The answer to your first question is still the same, at any given weight and configuration the airplane will still have set V speeds.


Actually not quite. Unless you're at the absolute limit, V speeds, or at least V1, can vary depending on bias in the software, which can be more "go" biased or more "stop" biased.

Take a look at this graph. Unless you're at the intersection of the stop and go lines, the V1 speed can be anywhere between them.

Image
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
slcguy
Posts: 422
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:09 pm

Re: Rotation Speeds....

Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:21 pm

Yes Starlion, that is correct. As I said in my first post V1 may vary due to runway length. Basically the speed that you can stop if you abort or fly if you continue, where the stop and go lines cross is the normal V1. Aircraft weight. and braking power are factored in. Magman's original post is more concerned with VR.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Rotation Speeds....

Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:58 pm

slcguy wrote:
Yes Starlion, that is correct. As I said in my first post V1 may vary due to runway length. Basically the speed that you can stop if you abort or fly if you continue, where the stop and go lines cross is the normal V1. Aircraft weight. and braking power are factored in. Magman's original post is more concerned with VR.


Indeed.

Bottom line: Flying is complicated. Apparently. ;)
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
pikachu
Posts: 165
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2002 5:58 pm

Re: Rotation Speeds....

Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:24 pm

Magman wrote:
pikachu wrote:
As Woodreau said... it depends. What does it depend on? Take off weight, flap setting, pressure altitude, and ambient air temperature.

Here are the speeds from the QRH for a B757-200.

Flaps 1: V1 176 Vr 179 V2 184
Flaps 5: V1 161 Vr 165 V2 169
Flaps 15: V1 154 Vr 157 V2 160
Flaps 20: V1 145 Vr 148 V2 152


Pikachu - The conditions are "Standard Day" meaning 59F, 29.92 Barometric Pressure and zero head wind. The only variable not accounted for is the flap settings. Is there a "standard" or default setting?
Thanks,
Magman


As we have seen, aircraft performance calculations are complex and not well understood.
Magman, what is the ultimate purpose of your inquiry?
The numbers I have provided come from manufacturer published data.
Consider them to be generic numbers. They work on an 8000' runway as well as a 12000' runway. Unless there is an obstacle in the way. Or a climb limit. Or a tire speed limit. I do not know what the numbers I provided account for but they will get you off the ground under the conditions you specified.
"Optimum" might be your default selection in OPT app. But we don't know the ultimate purpose of your original question. There are too many variables at play for anybody to accurately answer your question without a specific purpose for these numbers.
 
RetiredWeasel
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Re: Rotation Speeds....

Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:37 pm

The TA in his starter referenced VR which to me is Vr or rotational speed. The main factor is weight as this is an aerodynamic speed. Of course flap setting, assuming fixed power setting also affects the speed. But, as I stated before, environmental factors play little in this speed. A knot or 2 due to higher pressure altitude or higher than standard temp may be added, but is small. Some airlines may recommend delaying rotation slightly in gusty wind conditions. Runway length or steady state winds whether HW or TW is not a factor in computing this speed to the best of my knowledge; certainly not in the aircraft I flew.
 
Magman
Topic Author
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Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 3:09 pm

Re: Rotation Speeds....

Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:41 pm

Pikachu,
Thanks for all of your input. The purpose of my request is to improve some software. My company (www.aprconsultants.com) have mathematical models of several commercial aircraft. We simulate the aircraft performing a takeoff, landing etc on measured runway profile data to evaluate the runway's ride quality; finding and quantifying the effect of pavement roughness. The models predict the aircraft's response to the runway's profile data. We are looking to validate the rotation speed of our aircraft models. Unfortunately, Boeing and Airbus are not willing to share this information. Anyway, that's the background for my request.
Thanks,
magman
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6717
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Rotation Speeds....

Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:28 pm

Well, they’re very willing to share the data, in my experience, just at a cost. If you are offering a product for sale, the cost of producing it is part of the selling price.

GF
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Rotation Speeds....

Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:37 am

Magman wrote:
Pikachu,
Thanks for all of your input. The purpose of my request is to improve some software. My company (http://www.aprconsultants.com) have mathematical models of several commercial aircraft. We simulate the aircraft performing a takeoff, landing etc on measured runway profile data to evaluate the runway's ride quality; finding and quantifying the effect of pavement roughness. The models predict the aircraft's response to the runway's profile data. We are looking to validate the rotation speed of our aircraft models. Unfortunately, Boeing and Airbus are not willing to share this information. Anyway, that's the background for my request.
Thanks,
magman


So the purpose of your enquiry is commercial. I feel like you should have shared this information from the start.

As GalaxyFlyer says, the manufacturers are probably willing to share for a price.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6717
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Rotation Speeds....

Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:31 am

And, basing your product on data from an anonymous web forum is hardly authoritative. You will have to cite sources and A.net posting isn’t likely to impress.


GF
 
Magman
Topic Author
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Re: Rotation Speeds....

Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:09 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
And, basing your product on data from an anonymous web forum is hardly authoritative. You will have to cite sources and A.net posting isn’t likely to impress.


GF


You are precisely right. That is why I am seeking out charts and performance data - to see if anyone knows where I may be able to access this data as opposed to opinions.

Thanks,
magman
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6717
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Rotation Speeds....

Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:21 pm

Airbus and Boeing would be the source here.

GF
 
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SAAFNAV
Posts: 612
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Re: Rotation Speeds....

Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:35 am

Magman wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
And, basing your product on data from an anonymous web forum is hardly authoritative. You will have to cite sources and A.net posting isn’t likely to impress.


GF


You are precisely right. That is why I am seeking out charts and performance data - to see if anyone knows where I may be able to access this data as opposed to opinions.

Thanks,
magman


But unofficial charts from Google Images would be just as dodgy as a random number from Airliners.net.

If you want to go give away official data that might well kill people when you get it wrong, it's best to source from the author of said data.
CFI/Gr. III, L-382 Loadmaster, ex C-130B Navigator
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6717
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Rotation Speeds....

Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:33 pm

Only the manufacturers have the data based on “first principles”; i.e. test data and the formulas based on test data that created the charts.

GF

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