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stephen88
Topic Author
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:26 pm

Approach Ban

Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:43 pm

Now from I understand from the approach ban is that if the RVR at the airport you've commenced an approach at fall below minimums...

If above 1,000ft, don't descend below this, below 1,000ft, continue until the missed approach point.

If I was above 1,000ft, do I have to stay at 1,000ft until the MAPt or can I start climbing to the MAP stop altitude and then carry out any turns once I get to the MAPt?

Thanks
 
ChrisKen
Posts: 1214
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:15 pm

Re: Approach Ban

Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:04 pm

Depends where in the world you are (and company policies).
 
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Starlionblue
Posts: 21254
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: Approach Ban

Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:57 am

As ChrisKen says it depends on national regs and company policy.

Having said that, if RVR goes below minimum and you are above 1000 feet, you go around and climb to the missed approach altitude. Since you can't continue down the glidepath, staying level would put you above profile. So it's not like you can descend again. No reason to stay that close to the ground, especially in low viz.

Any turns would be carried out as per the procedure, and may be before or after you reach the MAA, depending on how far along the horizontal path you have traveled.

BTW if RVR falls below minimum and you are below 1000 feet, you MAY descend to the DA/MDA. You don't have to if you really don't think conditions will improve enough.
 
IAHFLYR
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Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

Re: Approach Ban

Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:17 pm

Isn't the object to land? :))) Seriously, once you're issued the RVR outside the final approach fix and it is at or above minimums is it not completely legal (within the U.S.) to continue the approach as long as no further RVR is issued by the tower should it go below landing mins? When I was a tower controller we would issue the RVR's before the final approach fix and that was it. I'm pretty sure those rules have changed since I was in that position well before jet fuel was discovered.
 
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SaveFerris
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 5:42 am

Re: Approach Ban

Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:56 pm

IAHFLYR wrote:
Isn't the object to land? :))) Seriously, once you're issued the RVR outside the final approach fix and it is at or above minimums is it not completely legal (within the U.S.) to continue the approach as long as no further RVR is issued by the tower should it go below landing mins? When I was a tower controller we would issue the RVR's before the final approach fix and that was it. I'm pretty sure those rules have changed since I was in that position well before jet fuel was discovered.


When operating in the US this is almost correct. Prior to the Final Approach Fix we have to have at least the required RVR to conduct the approach. However, once we are past the Final Approach Fix we are allowed to continue the approach regardless of what happens to the RVR. In theory the RVR can go down to 0 and if we are past the FAF we can legally fly the approach down to minimums.

As Starlion said, this does vary around the world. The above example is how the US regulations are worded.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 9992
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Approach Ban

Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:13 am

Outside the US, the 1,000’ floor is common, in the US, for air carriers and air taxi; it’s the FAF.


GF
 
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zeke
Posts: 17417
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Approach Ban

Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:59 am

stephen88 wrote:
Now from I understand from the approach ban is that if the RVR at the airport you've commenced an approach at fall below minimums...

If above 1,000ft, don't descend below this, below 1,000ft, continue until the missed approach point.

If I was above 1,000ft, do I have to stay at 1,000ft until the MAPt or can I start climbing to the MAP stop altitude and then carry out any turns once I get to the MAPt?

Thanks


If the RVR is below your landing minima no need to descend to 1000, you can give it away earlier and make other plans. Or you can keep going to 1000 ft and try and get an updated RVR.

In most cases if the RVR is that low, you will be descending to a DH (ie Cat2/3) not to a missed approach point. This can be on the runway if the DH is zero.

When doing a missed approach regardless of approach type you are expected to carry out the standard missed approach. Unless there was a specific constraint in the procedure, the expectation is you will follow the lateral guidance on the chart and climb to the missed approach altitude/level via the published speed and altitude constraints.

The FAA has not implemented the ICAO approach ban procedure. ignore a lot of the posts above as they are not relevant to your question.
 
kalvado
Posts: 3782
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Approach Ban

Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:30 am

ChrisKen wrote:
Depends where in the world you are (and company policies).

And a traditional remotely related question: when flying internationally how do pilots keep track of national regulation details? Some briefing cards for destination and all possible enroute diversion points? Or company/country of origin rules have priority over the rules of destination country?
 
FlyHossD
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Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:45 pm

Re: Approach Ban

Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:48 am

SaveFerris wrote:
When operating in the US this is almost correct. Prior to the Final Approach Fix we have to have at least the required RVR to conduct the approach. However, once we are past the Final Approach Fix we are allowed to continue the approach regardless of what happens to the RVR. In theory the RVR can go down to 0 and if we are past the FAF we can legally fly the approach down to minimums


As I recall, this was the case for CAT I and II approaches in the U.S. But for CAT III, if the RVR went below minimums any time inside the FAF, a missed approach was mandatory.
 
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Starlionblue
Posts: 21254
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: Approach Ban

Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:02 am

kalvado wrote:
ChrisKen wrote:
Depends where in the world you are (and company policies).

And a traditional remotely related question: when flying internationally how do pilots keep track of national regulation details? Some briefing cards for destination and all possible enroute diversion points? Or company/country of origin rules have priority over the rules of destination country?


Every port in our charts comes with a set of company notes containing local particularities. Normally a few pages with things like unusual comms procedures, noise abatement, cautions for narrow taxiways or tight turns, local APU regulations, target time regulations, etc... Even without the notes, local port regulations are published as part of the charts package. Review before approach and before departure, and highlight anything of note in the briefing.

Example: Barcelona. See pages 2-5. http://www.fly-sea.com/charts/LEBL.pdf


It's not normally that different, to be honest. The important stuff like "hold short runway xx" is the same. And ATC tends to be patient if you're not familiar.

Heard in HK the other week from what I think was a charter operator. In HK ground uses colours to designate pushback directions, and there are charts for it.
- "Flight 123, you are cleared push and start colour red."
- "Cleared push and start colour... ummmm... red, flight 123."
30 seconds later.
- "Ground, flight 123. Sorry, first time here. What does 'colour red' mean?"
- "Flight 123, just tell your ground engineer."
- "Ok thanks..."
 
Woodreau
Posts: 2335
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:44 am

Re: Approach Ban

Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:12 pm

kalvado wrote:
ChrisKen wrote:
Depends where in the world you are (and company policies).

And a traditional remotely related question: when flying internationally how do pilots keep track of national regulation details? Some briefing cards for destination and all possible enroute diversion points? Or company/country of origin rules have priority over the rules of destination country?


ICAO publishes it's rules of the air which is the starting point. Then every country publishes an AIP which is the "rulebook" for what the rules are for the country and specifies differences from ICAO. For example in the US there is no Class F airspace but under ICAO rules there is. Each countries AIP will also publish regional procedures and also local airport procedures.

There are companies like Jeppesen and similar that collect all of the disparate national procedures and they are published as a general airway manual in addition to regional airway manuals like north America, South America, Atlantic Europe,etc which pilots can refer to specific countries or airport procedures.

Then for airlines their flight operations department will publish company procedures and summarize everything in a 10-7 page. Sometimes it's just a page or could be a small 20 page pamphlet for larger hub which discusses catering, maintenance or local ramp procedures

Generally you use the more restrictive rule that applies in a situation.
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 4557
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

Re: Approach Ban

Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:08 pm

FlyHossD wrote:
As I recall, this was the case for CAT I and II approaches in the U.S. But for CAT III, if the RVR went below minimums any time inside the FAF, a missed approach was mandatory.


Not if you don't know about it!! :D :bigthumbsup:
 
FlyHossD
Posts: 2297
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:45 pm

Re: Approach Ban

Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:41 pm

IAHFLYR wrote:
FlyHossD wrote:
As I recall, this was the case for CAT I and II approaches in the U.S. But for CAT III, if the RVR went below minimums any time inside the FAF, a missed approach was mandatory.


Not if you don't know about it!! :D :bigthumbsup:


A true statement if ever there was one.
 
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SaveFerris
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 5:42 am

Re: Approach Ban

Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:20 pm

FlyHossD wrote:
SaveFerris wrote:
When operating in the US this is almost correct. Prior to the Final Approach Fix we have to have at least the required RVR to conduct the approach. However, once we are past the Final Approach Fix we are allowed to continue the approach regardless of what happens to the RVR. In theory the RVR can go down to 0 and if we are past the FAF we can legally fly the approach down to minimums


As I recall, this was the case for CAT I and II approaches in the U.S. But for CAT III, if the RVR went below minimums any time inside the FAF, a missed approach was mandatory.


Interesting point as I double checked our manuals and there is no differentiation between CAT II and III approaches if the RVR goes below published minimums. For both types of approaches it allows us to continue the approach so long as we are inside the FAF (assuming we are operating in the US). Might be time for me to do some digging.

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