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SuseJ772
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Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:10 pm

https://jalopnik.com/an-irish-pilot-arg ... 842314/amp

Curious as to everyone’s thoughts on this matter.

“it’s light. I have six categories of weather here – that is the lightest category.”


Shamrock 104 Heavy, unable to direct GREKI now, you’ve got yourself in this position here!


Before I go...” he began. “We didn’t create any situation, we flew the aircraft in a safe manner, and my boss will be in contact with your boss.”

“Everybody on the airport is turning left,” the ATC responded. “I mean, there’s not too many options here in New York.”

“It’s not my first day in New York,” the Aer Lingus retorted. “It’s not my first day in an aircraft. I did what I had to do. GOOD DAY.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
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LX015
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:26 pm

Ahhh, the unmistakable sounds of JFK!
 
sixtyseven
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:00 am

Sounds like another windbag NYC “controller” losing his cool. No Big deal.
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:11 am

OTOH, every other departure was following the same vectors and went to MERIT or GREKI. Can’t be a sunny day everyday.

GF
 
Samrnpage
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:23 am

I dont get it? Is the ATC calling the pilot a liar? Was there any need for this from the ATC?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:48 am

No, just more conservative than the other six.

GF
 
Adispatcher
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:04 am

ATC is providing a service. Pilots can decline direction.
 
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DesertFlyer
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:05 am

Good for the pilots holding their own and not giving in.
 
m007j
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:08 am

inb4 an ATCO comes in and defends JFK ATC, that was a plum example of punishment vectors, kids
 
YellowJ
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:48 am

DesertFlyer wrote:
Good for the pilots holding their own and not giving in.


:scratchchin:

Not giving in to what? The pilot accepted the SID during clearance. With NYC boxed in by weather and 3 major airports sharing a limited arrival/departure space; what exactly did he think the controller should have done?
 
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SuseJ772
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:03 am

As I have thought about this a bit, I think the thing I question the most is if you look at that radar, an initial left turn to GREKI looked like it went through more severe than “the lightest category out six” that he has. Certainly it wasn’t the worst (Cat 6?) But it also wasn’t 1 either. If in fact it was more severe than a “1” I do think the controller should be reprimanded for making light of a safety concern and potentially lying.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
MSJYOP28Apilot
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:39 am

Pilots have eyes on the clouds and a different kind of weather radar than the guys in enroute ATC who are usually in a windowless room away from the airport. I really don't see the issue here. Weather looked bad to pilot and he would't go through weather. ATC put him in a brief hold while they found a new route for him. ATC couldnt understand why this guy wasn't flying through the same weather others did and the crew was miffed ATC didn't give them priority over other flights on the new routing around the weather. This happens dozens of times each day in thunderstorm season. Pilots and ATC are constantly going back and forth over this kind of thing.

What stuff like this does do is make ATC even more conservative when there is weather. If they think stuff like this will happen, they will shut things down for longer and the delays will pile up even more. When you are sitting in a long line at a congested airport due to weather, think of incidents like this. ATC tries to plan things so stuff like this doesn't happen.

Every day during thunderstorm season there is a constant battle between the airlines, ATC management, and the controllers over how best to manage the high volume with weather constraints.
 
asuflyer
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:50 am

The weather has been horrible in NYC as well as PHL and WAS areas Friday and appears to continue this way with thunderstorms everyday for the next 2 weeks due to changes in the jetstream and remnants of a tropical storm. Everyone including, ATC, airport ops, pilots are having to deal with 4-5 hour delays, diversions, multiple reroutes, 3 hour taxi times and increased workloads.
 
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N62NA
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:58 am

Seemed to me the controller did everything right, wasn't rude at all.
 
7673mech
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:47 am

DesertFlyer wrote:
Good for the pilots holding their own and not giving in.


And increasing the the controllers work load?
Making the skies around NY that much more unsafe?
He knew the plan before he took off - should have asked for a hold on the ground rather then endangering the other professionals and passengers around him.
 
Kno
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:26 am

To the untrained ear it sounds like the pilot was the only one being a jerk. Any actual pilots or atc guys have any insight?
 
Max Q
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:39 am

7673mech wrote:
DesertFlyer wrote:
Good for the pilots holding their own and not giving in.


And increasing the the controllers work load?
Making the skies around NY that much more unsafe?
He knew the plan before he took off - should have asked for a hold on the ground rather then endangering the other professionals and passengers around him.




He didn’t endanger anyone, he was trying to be as safe as possible and he kept it professional the whole time


‘Knew the plan before he took off ‘ !


Weather is a very dynamic thing, once airborne things can look quite different, especially when you’re up close, the Aer Lingus Pilots had a lot better look at the weather than the controller and they’re the ones that would be going through it along with their passengers not him


Convective activity that may be acceptabl
for one flight can change in moments, it doesn’t matter that other aircraft have had
a good ride through it if it increases in severity before you get there



The pilots were adamant in their
view of the weather and potential hazards
but they kept calm


Good for them, the controller lost his cool
and that wasn’t warranted
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


Guns are a malignant cancer that are destroying our society
 
a320fan
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:50 am

All good saying they accepted the clearance on the ground, but that doesn’t mean it’s going to look the same once they are up there and seeing on their radar/with their eyes. If they didn’t think they should fly through it then the right choice is not to, bad luck for the atc who now has to vector them, it’s what has to be done.

My take from the video is when the EI crew decided they couldn’t fly the wanted vector the controller got rude and snarky in a completey unnessecary way, rather than just accepting the reality of the situation. This then led to the EI crew thinking they were been held as punishment despite the fact it’s quite possible that was the only option to get them out of the busy airspace.
A319, A320, A321, A330-200, A350-900, A380, 737-700, 737-800, 777-200ER, 777-300, 777-300ER, 787-8, Q300, Q400
 
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TripleDelta
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:08 am

7673mech wrote:
He knew the plan before he took off


A couple of years ago, I was flying on a stromy evening with intense, fast-moving CB activity. On the ground, everything for our departure looked good: it appeared that we could fly the same Standard Instrument Departure we always do (straight ahead to the east for a few miles then right by 45 degrees), since everything said it would take us clear of the weather. We duly picked up our clearance, briefed and set off.

By the time we arrived at the holding point on the southern runway - 20 minutes later or thereabouts - the weathed had moved in, much faster than predicted. Our own radar now revealed that EVERY waypoint on our SID was red or magenta - a definite no-go. However, we noticed that there was a hole to the south, so I asked the tower controller to coordinate with Departure to immediatey vector us by 180 degress into a sort of downwind (very non standard there) and then through that gap.

However, it took the controller some 15 minutes to organize such a maneuver, by which time the gap had gone - and worse still, another CB had moved onto the extended runway centerline very close to the field. The only option now was to go north. So we had to wait 20+ minutes more for the controllers to coordinate with their counterparts handling the northern runway to let us swing north east and THROUGH their departures for a few miles and then swing southeast (even more non standard than our previous idea). This finally worked... after burning fuel 50 minutes on the holding point (thankfully, we were tankering, so had loads to spare).

The moral? Plans on the ground and the actual situation in the air can be very, very different, especially during convective activity...
Hawkeye: "It doesn't make any sense."
Radar: "Well, none of it makes any sense. You just have to send in the right number of forms." - MASH 4077
 
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TOGA10
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:35 am

Hardly a fight at all. You'll hear this every day in busy airspaces, both parties have their view on these things and it got worked out in the end.
Move along, nothing to see here.
(Thanks for sharing though!)
Love flying, hate the alarm at 3 in the morning, love watching the sun rise at 5:30. It's all about compromises.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:10 am

I found myself in a somewhat opposite situation at JFK where we took what I gather was the planned route by ATC, only to be tossed about the cabin in pretty scary fashion. Captain came on the PA to apologise "for following strict ATC orders" that had put us "exactly through some active cells". Crewmembers later said he would complain to NY ATC.
 
N757ST
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:03 am

oldannyboy wrote:
I found myself in a somewhat opposite situation at JFK where we took what I gather was the planned route by ATC, only to be tossed about the cabin in pretty scary fashion. Captain came on the PA to apologise "for following strict ATC orders" that had put us "exactly through some active cells". Crewmembers later said he would complain to NY ATC.



I’ve been a pilot based at jfk and lga for 15 years and I’ve never run into anything like that. You’re still the pilot in command, act like it. Now, also realize the constraints of the airspace and what you can or can’t do. Don’t bother asking for a left turn out of 4L/R, or a right turn on 31L... it’s just not going to happen. In general, NY tracon is a conservative bunch in terms of weather. They aren’t going to put you on purpose into bad weather. As for your situation, that was pretty unprofessional behavior by your crew by accepting a clearance they feel was less then safe and then passing blame to the controllers.

I’ll conclude with recognizing that jfk controllers and ny tracon can indeed be a bit snarky. It’s part of flying in ny, and for people that are based there and have done it for years you tend to actually enjoy and or be slightly amused by it on occasion. Not to say they couldn’t improve their temperament at times, but often they are absolutely correct. I remember a situation a year or so ago where air Berlin got a bit of a talking to by tower. Flying in on the VOR 13L the controller asked what the guys speed was... he replied 160 even though he was assigned 180. The aircraft was well outside the FAF, and caused a loss of spectator , resulting in a go around in back of it. The controller was pretty pissed, and rightfully so. Had the pilot merely told the controller he was slowing it would have been no problem, but he didn’t.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:08 pm

N757ST wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
I found myself in a somewhat opposite situation at JFK where we took what I gather was the planned route by ATC, only to be tossed about the cabin in pretty scary fashion. Captain came on the PA to apologise "for following strict ATC orders" that had put us "exactly through some active cells". Crewmembers later said he would complain to NY ATC.



I’ve been a pilot based at jfk and lga for 15 years and I’ve never run into anything like that. You’re still the pilot in command, act like it. Now, also realize the constraints of the airspace and what you can or can’t do. Don’t bother asking for a left turn out of 4L/R, or a right turn on 31L... it’s just not going to happen. In general, NY tracon is a conservative bunch in terms of weather. They aren’t going to put you on purpose into bad weather. As for your situation, that was pretty unprofessional behavior by your crew by accepting a clearance they feel was less then safe and then passing blame to the controllers.

I’ll conclude with recognizing that jfk controllers and ny tracon can indeed be a bit snarky. It’s part of flying in ny, and for people that are based there and have done it for years you tend to actually enjoy and or be slightly amused by it on occasion. Not to say they couldn’t improve their temperament at times, but often they are absolutely correct. I remember a situation a year or so ago where air Berlin got a bit of a talking to by tower. Flying in on the VOR 13L the controller asked what the guys speed was... he replied 160 even though he was assigned 180. The aircraft was well outside the FAF, and caused a loss of spectator , resulting in a go around in back of it. The controller was pretty pissed, and rightfully so. Had the pilot merely told the controller he was slowing it would have been no problem, but he didn’t.


Oh yeah, agree fully with you say about [i]"You’re still the pilot in command, act like it" ,[/i] but for some reason he didn't, was pissed by the poor show, and decided to blame ATC. :swirl: !!! whatever !!!
Funny thing, I've had something similar happening in LHR, so I suppose it once in a while happens that you follow "orders" only to [somewhat] regretting them afterwards?...and blame it (in this LHR case) on 'traffic being tight on departure'....!!
 
Pontius
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:05 pm

7673mech wrote:
He knew the plan before he took off


An IFR clearance is Draft A of what will be Plan Y or Z by the time the aircraft gets to the gate.

As a professional courtesy, I will happily takeoff assuming the departure controller (who will be contacted just after rotation) has a plan to deal with obvious weather. The vast majority of occasions the controller will have some clever vectors to thread the needle and maintain separation. Aircraft keep moving, and the controller has the picture and is ahead of events. Every once in a while our definition of “obvious weather” differs with that of he controller, and a last minute deviation has to be worked out. If, in terminal areas, during convective weather, every turn, heading, and fix had to be negotiated on the ground prior to departure with controllers who aren’t even in the same building as those who will ultimately be responsible for separation - frustration would rule and aircraft wouldn’t move. Shamrock was right to accept the takeoff clearance.
 
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DesertFlyer
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:12 pm

YellowJ wrote:
DesertFlyer wrote:
Good for the pilots holding their own and not giving in.


:scratchchin:

Not giving in to what?


Good for the pilots not giving into the snark of the controller or doing something they were pressured to do because they saw it as potentially unsafe. ATC clearly made it known to the pilots that they were the "only ones with a problem" and they "did this to themselves." Rhetoric like that from ATC is clearly unnecessary.

TOGA10 wrote:
Hardly a fight at all. You'll hear this every day in busy airspaces, both parties have their view on these things and it got worked out in the end.
Move along, nothing to see here.

I don't typically hear transmissions end with "my boss will be in contact with your boss" everyday.
 
YellowJ
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:47 am

Good for the pilots not giving into the snark of the controller or doing something they were pressured to do because they saw it as potentially unsafe. ATC clearly made it known to the pilots that they were the "only ones with a problem" and they "did this to themselves." Rhetoric like that from ATC is clearly unnecessary.


Unnecessary yes; but not incorrect. I refuse to believe this crew did not look at their weather radar or view the METAR on the ground. That weather cell was hanging over New York for practically the whole day. There's zero excuse to wait until you take off to then have a problem with the assigned filed departure. That's ludicrous when your attempting to slot a few hundred planes in a narrow space, due to weather. Especially when no other departing aircraft had reported wind shear.


I don't typically hear transmissions end with "my boss will be in contact with your boss" everyday.


What he should be getting his boss on the line about was tanking extra fuel from the get go to request a lengthy re-route.
 
Longhornmaniac
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:13 am

I think people are largely overreacting to this whole thing. What people are interpreting as punitive by N90 is really making the best of pretty limited options. With the weather around, there sure weren't many places for Shamrock to go. The controller had to effectively build a vector hold while they made a hole for him. The Shamrock pilots were well within their right to refuse the clearance if they thought it was unsafe (and as PIC, that decision and ultimate authority lies entirely with the pilot flying, as it should), and the controller was well within their right to put them in the "penalty box" while they found a slot for him. With planes taking off every 60-120 seconds, there's not exactly a lot of free space to put an A330 and maintain separation, especially when factoring in arrivals, approaches, and departures into and out of EWR and LGA.

At the end of the day, I think each probably needed to have a little more acceptance of the things they did and didn't know, and be a touch more understanding, but it really wasn't that bad. The typical NYC snark is off-putting for those not from there (myself included), but I'm also aware of it enough to know it's not personal. At the end of the day, Shamrock simultaneously knew what they shouldn't/didn't want to do (fly into what they perceived as bad weather), but also didn't know what the situation with other airplanes around them was (when they could proceed to GREKI based on the other traffic). Likewise, N90 has no ability to make PIC decisions on behalf of a pilot and should accept that, but also has a better macro-level view of the other things going on around the airspace.
Cheers,
Cameron
 
Chemist
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:47 am

I'm only a GA pilot but IMHO the pilot was totally in the right here. He's the one with the lives at stake and he has a better look at the conditions than the controller. I can understand the controller's frustration but he could have handled it better. It's possible that this pilot was more conservative - I mean how much traffic is there in Ireland and probably much easier to ask for deviations around weather. Ultimately the pilot has the responsibility of safety so good for him.
 
CosmicCruiser
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:12 pm

N62NA wrote:
Seemed to me the controller did everything right, wasn't rude at all.


I agree. One must remember that NY ATC is a little different than most. These guys are having to sequence their flow to fit with about 6 other close by airports, LGA, TEB, EWR, PHL and the 2 DC airports. Can you imagine what would happen if 1 jet from each of those airports wanted to do something different? It wouldn't work. I have always admired the NY ATC and think for what they have to work with they do a fantastic job.
 
barney captain
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:10 pm

YellowJ wrote:

Unnecessary yes; but not incorrect. I refuse to believe this crew did not look at their weather radar or view the METAR on the ground. That weather cell was hanging over New York for practically the whole day. There's zero excuse to wait until you take off to then have a problem with the assigned filed departure. That's ludicrous when your attempting to slot a few hundred planes in a narrow space, due to weather. Especially when no other departing aircraft had reported wind shear.


METAR has exactly zero, nada, zip to do with what wx you encounter once airborne. That is an airport observation only. You rely on you radar, eyes, experience and yes, even Spidey Sense in flight.

It's very difficult to accurately determine if the departure corridor is acceptable until you're airborne.

Wind shear?? That is something that gets reported in the airport environment - and usually associated with a specific runway. It certainly isn't something that gets reported by aircraft climbing through 7000 feet.

Your basic lack of understanding in these areas is quite telling.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
Passedv1
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:20 am

I think both did a great job.

The airspace around NYC is the busiest in the world and if you don’t get into one of the established flows there is really nowhere to put you. My guess is they had to stop departures off of JFK to make a hole that they could get Aer Lingus in. I think the controller was getting snarky because ATC is trying to get him into a flow that isn’t as close to the weather and Aer Lingus starts getting impatient trying to work out his own solution (we’d like to go direct xxxxx) that probably looks good to him looking at the radar/nav map, but doesn’t take into account the other 100 airplanes all around him that the controller is trying to keep him away from.

At the end of the day, they both did their jobs. The pilot kept his plane safe and ATC didn’t let any of the dots merge.
 
mjzair
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:45 pm

Just my 2 cents. As an airline pilot for the last 14 years, before I accepted a takeoff clearance, I looked at 2 things, 1.out the window, and 2. the flight path. If I didn’t like it, I would make an alternative plan BEFORE I accepted the takeoff clearance, not AFTER, and surely not out of any NYC airport. If I do not like what I see or the alternative plan, I am not departing, that simple.
Now, did the Shamrock pilot operate in the way he felt safest? Absolutely, and no one can or should fault him for that, however, in this case, I side completely with ATC. The New York metro airspace is a challenge on a good day, the PIREP of smooth should have been enough, especially from 6 previous aircraft.
 
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zeke
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Fri Jul 27, 2018 6:12 pm

when we receive the departure clearance at the gate we have no actual real time weather information, we wouldn’t reject a clearance at that stage.

By the time you taxi out to the runway you can have 20-90 minutes elapsed since receiving your initial clearance, in that time they may have even changed runway directions.

The first time most of see the departure weather is on line up as that is the first time the radar on the front of the aircraft is facing the correct direction.

The weather radar employed on aircraft have different signal processing capabilities that ground based weather radars do not have. Radars like on that aircraft can detect significant turbulence and downdrafts as part of the predictive windshear functions.

A good way of looking at it is the ground based radars are good strategic sources of information where ATC can figure out the best routes to get aircraft out, these routes however will close in and require dynamic changes.

Aircraft weather radars are sources of tactical information I.e. where do I need to be in 1 to 10 minutes. We see a different profile depending on our altitude.
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CrimsonNL
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Fri Jul 27, 2018 6:15 pm

I don't think the controller was unprofessional. Annoyed for sure, but he accommodated the '104 as well as he could. No one can blame the 104 crew for not flying into conditions they deem unsafe of course, but I don't think that last remark about the "bosses" was called for.

Martijn
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zeke
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Fri Jul 27, 2018 6:29 pm

I think the comment that they got themselves into that situation by the controller was inappropriate. The pilots reacted to what the weather was doing, the controller reacted to what the aircraft was doing.

Sometimes it is very healthy for the bosses on both sides to talk, both sides have very valid viewpoints.

Safety should always trump efficiency, saying I was able to push x number of aircraft along a route infront of an aircraft is tying to let the efficiency come before safety.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
strfyr51
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:26 pm

Samrnpage wrote:
I dont get it? Is the ATC calling the pilot a liar? Was there any need for this from the ATC?

There will be then ATC routes the Next Air Lingus airplane out over "East Jesus" In Ireland? you can do as you please.
But New York's Tracon ? You do as they Tell you. And they have little or NO sense of Humor. He didn't have to call the Pilot a Liar.
He has the tapes and Nobody from Ireland nor anywhere Else can dispute what he said. Get with the freakin' program or don't fly here!
Plain and Simple. The eastern seaboard is hard enough to fly in without some "dimwit" trying to make his OWN rules.
 
ChrisKen
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:26 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
But New York's Tracon ? You do as they Tell you.

Incorrect

The eastern seaboard is hard enough to fly in without some "dimwit" trying to make his OWN rules.

'His rules' as you call them, are internationally mandated by all ICAO countries and included in the FAA's own.

Busy airspace is no excuse for the surly, unprofessional attitude and tone regularly displayed by some of NYC area controllers.

Stressed out and snippy over a simple 'unable due to weather', makes you wonder how suited to the job that person is. It also conveys the wrong message to those whose lives are in their hands. Cool, calm, collected and professional is the correct way.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:00 pm

CosmicCruiser wrote:
N62NA wrote:
Seemed to me the controller did everything right, wasn't rude at all.


I agree. One must remember that NY ATC is a little different than most. These guys are having to sequence their flow to fit with about 6 other close by airports, LGA, TEB, EWR, PHL and the 2 DC airports. Can you imagine what would happen if 1 jet from each of those airports wanted to do something different? It wouldn't work. I have always admired the NY ATC and think for what they have to work with they do a fantastic job.

I trained at NY Atc as well as Oakland center when I wanted to become a controller. Oakland Center was rough but NY ATC? Murderous!! You don't have the time for a pilot to tell you what He's going to do when there may be 40-50 other flights (per Controller) awaiting sequencing for arrivals or departures. especially with LGA, EWR and JFK (not counting HPN and TEB) all in the same pot. Unfortunately? (or fortunately) I didn't make it as a controller and went back to what I knew, Aircraft Maintenance, where I never had to deal with different people other than the Crew's who's airplane I was servicing on any particular gate.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:40 am

I remember Frankfurt saying “MACxxx enter the hold at RUD, say your fuel and don’t lie”. All controllers and pilots in a tight situation can get a bit sharp—it goes with the game.

GF
 
Chemist
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:10 am

strfyr51 wrote:
CosmicCruiser wrote:
N62NA wrote:
Seemed to me the controller did everything right, wasn't rude at all.


I agree. One must remember that NY ATC is a little different than most. These guys are having to sequence their flow to fit with about 6 other close by airports, LGA, TEB, EWR, PHL and the 2 DC airports. Can you imagine what would happen if 1 jet from each of those airports wanted to do something different? It wouldn't work. I have always admired the NY ATC and think for what they have to work with they do a fantastic job.

I trained at NY Atc as well as Oakland center when I wanted to become a controller. Oakland Center was rough but NY ATC? Murderous!! You don't have the time for a pilot to tell you what He's going to do when there may be 40-50 other flights (per Controller) awaiting sequencing for arrivals or departures. especially with LGA, EWR and JFK (not counting HPN and TEB) all in the same pot. Unfortunately? (or fortunately) I didn't make it as a controller and went back to what I knew, Aircraft Maintenance, where I never had to deal with different people other than the Crew's who's airplane I was servicing on any particular gate.


Oh but you do have time, and this is codified in the regulations. The PIC has ultimate responsibility and can (and should) make their decisions based upon their judgement of what is safe. They are on the aircraft, the controller is not.
 
Max Q
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:23 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I remember Frankfurt saying “MACxxx enter the hold at RUD, say your fuel and don’t lie”. All controllers and pilots in a tight situation can get a bit sharp—it goes with the game.

GF



‘Say your fuel and don’t lie’


A bit funny, Its never really occurred to me to ‘understate’ how much fuel we have left


I certainly go on the conservative side as to
relating endurance but that’s a pretty pushy controller!
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


Guns are a malignant cancer that are destroying our society
 
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RRTrent
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:56 am

Chemist wrote:
I mean how much traffic is there in Ireland and probably much easier to ask for deviations around weather


While nowhere near the congestion of NYC, DUB handles nearly 30M pax per year so its hardly a quiet airspace.

I think the EI crew were right to request a deviation, but I also think the controller done his best and got them out as quickly as he could.
 
sevenair
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Re: Aer Lingus Fight with NYC ATC

Sat Aug 04, 2018 2:22 pm

It’s amazing with NYC. They literally are so busy they don’t have time to breath but often find enough time to have pointless arguments with people. Funny!

If there’s ever an example of where toxic masculinity impedes an operation it’s NYC ATC. Too much testosterone for my liking and too much of the petty one-upmanship we see with too many pilots today.

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