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Super80Fan
Posts: 1622
Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:14 am

Re: Should Airport employees have mental evaluations before starting work?

Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:16 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
Always love how passengers have to get the short end of the stick, especially when it's the fault of the airlines, manufacturers, airport authorities, or security procedures.


Manufactures fault? Puleze give us a break with that non sense.


In your infinite wisdom, please state where I said that everything in the above comment applies to this incident?

Go troll somewhere else.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
RIP US Airways
 
CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2343
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Re: Should Airport employees have mental evaluations before starting work?

Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:37 am

I can say at the time I got hired, the co. I was at had a chat with a psychologist as part of the 3 day interview process for pilot interviewees. No longer though as far as I know.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 1155
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Should Airport employees have mental evaluations before starting work?

Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:02 pm

DocLightning wrote:
CrimsonNL wrote:
Can you even begin to comprehend the logistics of an operation like this? At my local airport AMS there are already thousands of people with airside access, and we're hardly the biggest airport in the world!

Martijn


Yup. We are talking about a truly vast program here.

There are other, simpler ways to prevent this. How about asking manufacturers to require that new-build aircraft use ignition keys like cars? It need not be a sophisticated system. Just enough to offer a significant hurdle to someone who has had a psychotic break and wants to pull off a stunt like this.

In the end, the world cannot be made completely safe. Death is a known risk of life. There is a risk/benefit analysis that has to be taken very seriously before we do this. We've already seen what happens when those analyses are not done thoughtfully and now we all have to wait in line for TSA screenings sometimes for longer than the flight itself before boarding a plane, yet the TSA has never stopped a terrorist attack.

You would need a "key" that is (nearly) guaranteed not to fail inflight, because otherwise you're introducing a new possible point of failure while addressing a different, unlikely failure. You also need to remember that not everybody who turns on or moves an aircraft is a pilot. Aircraft are often towed by ground workers, there are engine and systems checks by mechanics. If there are "traditional" keys, they can be stolen or faked. Digital keys are not 100% safe either. You could probably design software that gives each person an appropriate clearance to operate certain systems but certifying such a safety critical piece of software is definitely not cheap.

I think this is appropriate:
https://xkcd.com/2030/
Image
 
greendot
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Re: Should Airport employees have mental evaluations before starting work?

Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:04 pm

SEAxSANxBOS wrote:
Mental Health in general, is hardly addressed in the United States. The issues should be addressed as a whole for all people, not just one sector.


Not to mention that it is not a science. It's also highly affected by political trends and social norms (good and bad). Practioners use the DSM as their diagnostic encyclopedia. The DSM once stated that transgenderism is a mental condition. It has now changed to where it is not. So the entire concept of mental health is a fraudulent concept. You cannnot group all humans into convenient categories. There is too much diversity in thought. This is why you have so many false positives and negatives.
 
jethro1
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Re: Should Airport employees have mental evaluations before starting work?

Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:27 pm

What is to ever stop one of two pilots from pulling a gun out of his flight bag and drilling the other pilot in the head. He then proceeds to fly the airplane into the Empire State building.
 
jethro1
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:53 pm

Re: Should Airport employees have mental evaluations before starting work?

Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:31 pm

stratclub wrote:
santi319 wrote:
Back on topic. Because we are considered innocent until proven guilty, laws requiring medical or psychological evaluations would violate 4th Amendment rights about unreasonable search and seizure. Of course there is nothing wrong with employers having requirements for employment candidates.

4th Amendment:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized".


If one is presumed innocent, why do they lock them up? I would be wanting to lock up those that we presume to be guilty.
 
KentB27
Posts: 476
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Re: Should Airport employees have mental evaluations before starting work?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:20 am

No. Mental evaluations are costly and don't necessarily prevent these types of things from happening. There are people who can pass a mental evaluation who still could snap at any time.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Should Airport employees have mental evaluations before starting work?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:02 am

Delta Air Lines was famous for it's initial hiring interview with the shrink. Reportedly success depend on whether or not you rocked in the chair you were asked to be seated in. The shrink later took his own life. Explains a lot about some folks I have known.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Should Airport employees have mental evaluations before starting work?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:37 am

BravoOne wrote:
Delta Air Lines was famous for it's initial hiring interview with the shrink. Reportedly success depend on whether or not you rocked in the chair you were asked to be seated in. The shrink later took his own life. Explains a lot about some folks I have known.


:roll:

Had to do a computerised mental evaluation during the interview process. I have no idea what good that did. Probably produced some fancy output in the form of graphs? Maybe I'm a cynic but I get the feeling the personal interviews told the selection panel way more about me than a computerised test could.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
mxaxai
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Re: Should Airport employees have mental evaluations before starting work?

Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:08 pm

KentB27 wrote:
No. Mental evaluations are costly and don't necessarily prevent these types of things from happening. There are people who can pass a mental evaluation who still could snap at any time.

Not to mention that you will end up with a plethora of false positives. Even if only 1 in 1000 tested is a false positive, that's still 1000 false positives for 1 real positive.

(Assuming a ratio of 1 real critical case among ~1,000,000 employees)
 
AbigailWT
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:23 pm

Re: Should Airport employees have mental evaluations before starting work?

Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:18 am

Over a million 'airport employees' in North America alone. An effective psychological evaluation costs to the tune of ~$2,000.

Who will foot the $2,000,000,000 bill to make it happen? How effective would it actually be? Is it worth it?
 
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fr8mech
Posts: 7738
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Re: Should Airport employees have mental evaluations before starting work?

Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:08 am

A little late to this thread, but here's my take on it.

No, there should not be any mental evaluations for air-side employees, past a high level screening for "obvious" issues. I'll leave that to the experts to figure out.

I'm thinking the best way to head some of this stuff off is continually surveillance. Nothing structured, just everybody keeping an eye on each other through normal interaction. We actually do this on a continual basis anyway, "hey, you look down today", "everything ok?", etc.

All our management personnel are trained to observe our employees for changes in behavior that may indicate drug use. I'm guessing that the indicators may not be a whole lot different.

The problem comes in on how to approach someone that is doing their job, but you notice a behavior shift the may indicate a problem.

I'm thinking this guy didn't go from "normal" to "steal an airplane" in a day, week, or month. There was a progression that occurred that may have been noticeable to others.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
KentB27
Posts: 476
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:20 pm

Re: Should Airport employees have mental evaluations before starting work?

Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:18 am

stratclub wrote:
Mental evaluations before people are allowed to procreate would be a great idea though. You need a license before you can cut hair. Why not some sort of criteria before you can do one of the most important things you will ever do?


Because you can't stop other people from having intercourse that may conceive a baby. Unplanned pregnancies happen all the time.
 
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longhauler
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Re: Should Airport employees have mental evaluations before starting work?

Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:03 pm

DocLightning wrote:
In addition, certain psychiatric conditions can be acquired or unmasked under extreme stress. Shall we put everyone going through a divorce or a serious illness of a loved one on leave?

I can't think of the last time something like this happened, but these events are very rare.

This is a valid point and maybe we should be re-assessing not mental illness but that way we perceive mental illness.

You note divorce and the serious illness of a spouse. Where I fly those two exact scenarios will get you time off with full pay. During that time, you will be assessed with regard to your fitness to fly. It is hard to explain, but the extreme discipline of flying sometines can be a necessary break. So often a reduced schedule is "prescribed" with the option not to fly at all.

If companies, (not just airlines) viewed mental illness the same way heart disease or cancer was seen, then maybe that stigma would be erased. Either temporary or chronic mental illness should allow any employee the option to take time off to get one's gyros re-aligned, if possible.

As to the rarity of the event. I can't remember any occasion where an employee "stole" a transport aircraft and took it for a test drive.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!

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