Kunasinsaw24
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Why do you need to have an engine logbook when you have aircraft logbook already?

Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:12 am

Why must you need an engine logbook when u can fill in all the information about the aircraft into the aircraft logbook?
Last edited by qf789 on Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: spelling in title
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Why do you need to have an engine logbook when you have aircraft logbook already?

Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:02 am

Two different pieces of equipment—the engine has it own set of limits, different certification and production certificates. The engine can be removed, replaced or have an AD against.

GF
 
kalvado
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Re: Why do you need to have an engine logbook when you have aircraft logbook already?

Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:40 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Two different pieces of equipment—the engine has it own set of limits, different certification and production certificates. The engine can be removed, replaced or have an AD against.

GF

Like many other parts which have their own set of limits, different certification and production certificates. Are there logbooks for brake pads?
 
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zeke
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Re: Why do you need to have an engine logbook when you have aircraft logbook already?

Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:15 am

Engines can be removed, overhauled, and reinstalled on a different aircraft. The engine maintenance history needs to follow the engine.
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kalvado
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Re: Why do you need to have an engine logbook when you have aircraft logbook already?

Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:50 pm

zeke wrote:
Engines can be removed, overhauled, and reinstalled on a different aircraft. The engine maintenance history needs to follow the engine.

But what about other parts which can be moved between aircraft? Possibly, engine is the most complex "part" of an aircraft, which cannot be readily diagnosed in terms of "pass/fail" like more simple pieces. But if any life-limited components are moved (can tires be switched, for example?), you may want same tracking information.
 
Dalmd88
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Re: Why do you need to have an engine logbook when you have aircraft logbook already?

Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:01 pm

Only small aircraft use physical engine logbooks, props have their own also. For a small single operator it is the easiest solution to track stuff and allow for an engine change in the future.

For airlines all the writeups go into the same logbook, or in the case of a heavy check they are documented on work cards. When the info gets to records, it is electronically entered into databases for the engines and airframe. All time limited components are also tracked through this system. Most airlines are now converting to complete electronic records. All the logbooks and work cards are digital.
 
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Horstroad
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Re: Why do you need to have an engine logbook when you have aircraft logbook already?

Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:43 pm

Dalmd88 wrote:
For airlines all the writeups go into the same logbook, or in the case of a heavy check they are documented on work cards. When the info gets to records, it is electronically entered into databases for the engines and airframe. All time limited components are also tracked through this system. Most airlines are now converting to complete electronic records. All the logbooks and work cards are digital.

I guess this is very dependant on the operator. We have a Technical Log Book, which is the "master". Passenger aircraft also have a Cabin Log Book, so broken arm rests and galley equipment won't flood the TLB. Then there is the Ground Log Book for any maintenance events. Our GLB is now electronic. When it used to be on paper we split it into categories like wings, engines, landing gear etc. for base maintenance only. In the database everything is categorized by ATA chapter and sub-chapter. We don't differentiate between engine and airframe. This isn't the best solution as all deferred Items have to be transferred when the engine is replaced, but that's how it works.
 
T prop
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Re: Why do you need to have an engine logbook when you have aircraft logbook already?

Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:24 pm

Engines have life limited components that must be tracked. They have modifications, service bulletins/ letters, AD's etc. that are done to them that must be noted somewhere. Engines don't always stay with the same airframe, they could be leased on loan a rental or bought and sold outright etc.
 
planenutok
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Re: Why do you need to have an engine logbook when you have aircraft logbook already?

Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:49 am

Spare engines sitting at maintenance bases require periodic maintenance while in storage and that is recorded in the engine logs since its not currently installed on an airframe.
 
meecrob
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Re: Why do you need to have an engine logbook when you have aircraft logbook already?

Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:03 am

kalvado wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Two different pieces of equipment—the engine has it own set of limits, different certification and production certificates. The engine can be removed, replaced or have an AD against.

GF

Like many other parts which have their own set of limits, different certification and production certificates. Are there logbooks for brake pads?


I hope you aren't taking the piss, or I will look quite silly. Put simply engines have timed inspection intervals and brake pads have wear limitations. The reason is you can't see inside the engine even with a borescope to accurately determine the wear without tearing it apart and using a micrometer to find out if something is out of limits. Thousandths of inches come into play when taking into consideration the rotation speeds of engines.
 
pygmalion
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Re: Why do you need to have an engine logbook when you have aircraft logbook already?

Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:28 am

The other reason engines have theIr own log books is they have their own airworthiness certificates that are owned by the engineer manufacturer. They are certified and granted a certificate long before they go on the airplane. To maintain that Certificate they must be maintained by the operator to the engine manufacturer manuals. For a 777-300ER, they are GE certified not Boeing certified. They keep the GE certificate on or off the airplane. The FAA requires the logbook to maintain the engine CofA
 
Apprentice
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Re: Why do you need to have an engine logbook when you have aircraft logbook already?

Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:28 pm

Kunasinsaw24 wrote:
Why must you need an engine logbook when u can fill in all the information about the aircraft into the aircraft logbook?



Hi: Even for a Flight Ballon?

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strfyr51
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Re: Why do you need to have an engine logbook when you have aircraft logbook already?

Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:31 am

Frankly? I have Never seen a separate engine log book apart from the Airplane log book. At United the engines were tracked with the Airframe util removed from that particular Airframe. The spare engines were tracked alone them Merged with the Airframe when installed ATA chapters 70-80 delineated engine work and AD notes along with Service Bulletins . and we tracked that s an entire package. The engines were "On Condition" and stayed that way. It was a bit of a hassle when we retired or sold an airplane because due to "Safe Harbor leasing" we had to install the delivered engines on the airframe, United was expert at selling airplanes and leasing them back. And many airplanes we leased out we bought back at residual value before we retired them. There were not a lot of airplanes United sold that remained in the USA. Other than to FEDEX or UPS..
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Why do you need to have an engine logbook when you have aircraft logbook already?

Fri Aug 31, 2018 7:39 am

Apprentice wrote:
Hi: Also for a Flight Ballon?

Rgds


I suspect that a hot air balloon could have 3 log books. One for the basket, one for the envelope (balloon) and one for the burner unit.

To the question at hand. If you refer to 14CFR91.417 we find that an owner or operator is required to maintain a logbook for the aircraft, each engine, each propeller/rotor and appliance.

The regulation doesn't say they have to be separate logbooks, just that a log of the maintenance performed to each item has to be maintained. Air transport carriers usually maintain one logbook for the entire aircraft. I suspect that a couple of keystrokes on the computer will segregate out any necessary engine information to form its own logbook when the engine is pulled from the aircraft. The same for any of the appliances on the aircraft. Given a part number and serial number, the operator should be able to track the maintenance history of any appliance.

Some pax operators maintain a cabin log for cabin items. Now, I haven't worked pax aircraft in a few decades, but I seem to recall if we replaced any component that had a serial number, we had to transfer the item to the aircraft logbook.

A private pilot/owner may just find it easier and more convenient to maintain the records for his engine and propeller separately from the airframe. My reading of the FAR's tells me that the owner can maintain separate logbook for any appliance on the aircraft, but that would probably be pretty excessive.
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FrmrKSEngr
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Re: Why do you need to have an engine logbook when you have aircraft logbook already?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:08 am

kalvado wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Two different pieces of equipment—the engine has it own set of limits, different certification and production certificates. The engine can be removed, replaced or have an AD against.

GF

Like many other parts which have their own set of limits, different certification and production certificates. Are there logbooks for brake pads?


Moving parts from one plane to another requires that the parts be certified as flight worthy through the issuance of an airworthiness tag. If you move brake pads, you would have to know the remaining life and that would be documented on the tag, which would be entered into the receiving aircraft's records.

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