Skildaman
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Multiple aircraft taxing across an active runway at once?

Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:31 am

Hey guys,

I was wondering if there is any regulation/procedures or manuals, photos or examples of multiple aircraft taxing across an active runway? I have researched and I believe this happens commonly at airports like JKF and ATL where aircraft hold short at multiple taxiways and are all cleared to go across at once, but I have no solid evidence of it. I was curious as this doesn't happen in Australia yet and it seems like a more efficient way of getting aircraft back to the terminal more quickly.

Thanks!
 
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BWIAirport
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Re: Multiple aircraft taxing across an active runway at once?

Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:17 pm

Also not sure of the regulations, but it sure makes a lot more sense trying to get multiple planes from the runway to the gates faster than trying to queue them through one taxiway.
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LH707330
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Re: Multiple aircraft taxing across an active runway at once?

Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:26 am

Yeah, I saw it at SEA today just a few hours ago. I was on DL145 (A333), we landed 16L, and as soon as we turned off, two 737s (maybe one was a jungle jet) also crossed the runway from the west to east so that there were three going across before they launched the next takeoff from 16L.

Under such circumstances, airports often have different ground frequencies, so the controller probably told them "hold short until the A330 turns off, then go."
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Multiple aircraft taxing across an active runway at once?

Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:32 am

LH707330 wrote:
Yeah, I saw it at SEA today just a few hours ago. I was on DL145 (A333), we landed 16L, and as soon as we turned off, two 737s (maybe one was a jungle jet) also crossed the runway from the west to east so that there were three going across before they launched the next takeoff from 16L.

Under such circumstances, airports often have different ground frequencies, so the controller probably told them "hold short until the A330 turns off, then go."


In my experience whenever an aircraft has to cross a runway, it will be on tower frequency.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
LH707330
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Re: Multiple aircraft taxing across an active runway at once?

Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:40 am

Starlionblue wrote:
LH707330 wrote:
Yeah, I saw it at SEA today just a few hours ago. I was on DL145 (A333), we landed 16L, and as soon as we turned off, two 737s (maybe one was a jungle jet) also crossed the runway from the west to east so that there were three going across before they launched the next takeoff from 16L.

Under such circumstances, airports often have different ground frequencies, so the controller probably told them "hold short until the A330 turns off, then go."


In my experience whenever an aircraft has to cross a runway, it will be on tower frequency.

Yeah, you're right, just looked it up. Sorry, I was tired...
 
IAHFLYR
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Re: Multiple aircraft taxing across an active runway at once?

Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:40 pm

There is no regulation against crossing an active runway with multiple aircraft at different taxiways and it happens every day at places mentioned above to name just a few airports.. If Land and Hold Short Operations (LAHSO) operations are in effect aircraft will also cross the runway beyond the LAHSO point simultaneously with landing aircraft.
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ChrisKen
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Re: Multiple aircraft taxing across an active runway at once?

Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:18 pm

IAHFLYR wrote:
If Land and Hold Short Operations (LAHSO) operations are in effect aircraft will also cross the runway beyond the LAHSO point simultaneously with landing aircraft.

Which is one of the reasons why many sensible airlines refuse to accept this sort of unsafe clearance when arriving in the US and the majority of countries worldwide don't allow it.

Same as you won't hear, "ABC123 cleared to land, number 4" anywhere else and you get a positive clearance instead. Assuming the runway will be clear in 8+ minutes time is plain daft.

AFAIK there's no restriction on the number of aircraft crossing the active runway simultaneously where the layout permits it. Apart from when an approaching aircraft has been issued a landing clearance (or departing aircraft issued a take-off clearance), then the correct answer is NONE.
 
timz
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Re: Multiple aircraft taxing across an active runway at once?

Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:16 pm

LH707330 wrote:
the controller probably told them "hold short until the A330 turns off, then go."

Do controllers ever do that?
 
IAHFLYR
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Re: Multiple aircraft taxing across an active runway at once?

Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:29 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
Which is one of the reasons why many sensible airlines refuse to accept this sort of unsafe clearance when arriving in the US and the majority of countries worldwide don't allow it.


I have issued numerous LAHSO clearances during my time at IAH and not once was there ever an issue with an aircraft crossing down field from the LAHSO point. IMHO it is not unsafe at all, but then we all have our opinions. If it was found to be unsafe NATCA and ALPA would have shut it down long ago.
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LH707330
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Re: Multiple aircraft taxing across an active runway at once?

Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:58 pm

timz wrote:
LH707330 wrote:
the controller probably told them "hold short until the A330 turns off, then go."

Do controllers ever do that?

Maybe not at SEA, but I've heard conditional clearances like that before.
ChrisKen wrote:
IAHFLYR wrote:
If Land and Hold Short Operations (LAHSO) operations are in effect aircraft will also cross the runway beyond the LAHSO point simultaneously with landing aircraft.

Which is one of the reasons why many sensible airlines refuse to accept this sort of unsafe clearance when arriving in the US and the majority of countries worldwide don't allow it.

Same as you won't hear, "ABC123 cleared to land, number 4" anywhere else and you get a positive clearance instead. Assuming the runway will be clear in 8+ minutes time is plain daft.

AFAIK there's no restriction on the number of aircraft crossing the active runway simultaneously where the layout permits it. Apart from when an approaching aircraft has been issued a landing clearance (or departing aircraft issued a take-off clearance), then the correct answer is NONE.

I don't think there's anything wrong with being cleared #4, as long as you've got the preceding traffic in sight. Usually it's "ABC123, cleared to land #4, follow the DEF 737 ahead of you."
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Multiple aircraft taxing across an active runway at once?

Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:18 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
IAHFLYR wrote:
If Land and Hold Short Operations (LAHSO) operations are in effect aircraft will also cross the runway beyond the LAHSO point simultaneously with landing aircraft.

Which is one of the reasons why many sensible airlines refuse to accept this sort of unsafe clearance when arriving in the US and the majority of countries worldwide don't allow it.

Same as you won't hear, "ABC123 cleared to land, number 4" anywhere else and you get a positive clearance instead. Assuming the runway will be clear in 8+ minutes time is plain daft.

AFAIK there's no restriction on the number of aircraft crossing the active runway simultaneously where the layout permits it. Apart from when an approaching aircraft has been issued a landing clearance (or departing aircraft issued a take-off clearance), then the correct answer is NONE.


All a LAHSO clearance does is reduce the LDA from full length. If you could land on that LDA, why is it somehow “unsafe” to land on the very same LDA reduced by LAHSO. Your reasoning is the daft part.

I might agree with “number 4, cleared to land”, but if conditions change you might be sent around or, if you don’t like conditions, go around at you’re own volition.

GF
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Multiple aircraft taxing across an active runway at once?

Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:00 am

timz wrote:
LH707330 wrote:
the controller probably told them "hold short until the A330 turns off, then go."

Do controllers ever do that?


If you're supposed to cross behind a landing aircraft, the clearance would be "Behind the landing A330 cross the runway to x-ray, behind". It becomes a bit trickier if you have to cross beyond the turnoff used by the landing aircraft. I suppose you might have to wait with the clearance until the landing aircraft has slowed to taxi speed...
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
atcdan
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Re: Multiple aircraft taxing across an active runway at once?

Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:18 am

LAHSO operations are completely safe, and are only conducted in dry VMC conditions with no tailwind component for the landing aircraft. They are also only authorized for select runways at select airports where it is necessary for the efficiency of the movement of aircraft.

Also, in the USA, you will never have a controller issue a conditional clearance to cross a runway. All runway crossings are stated explicitly to avoid confusion. "ABC123, Cross Runway 1 Right at Alpha, contact ground 121.1, traffic holds in position."

Hope this helps the discussion a little.
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VSMUT
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Re: Multiple aircraft taxing across an active runway at once?

Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:15 pm

Skildaman wrote:
Hey guys,

I was wondering if there is any regulation/procedures or manuals, photos or examples of multiple aircraft taxing across an active runway? I have researched and I believe this happens commonly at airports like JKF and ATL where aircraft hold short at multiple taxiways and are all cleared to go across at once, but I have no solid evidence of it. I was curious as this doesn't happen in Australia yet and it seems like a more efficient way of getting aircraft back to the terminal more quickly.

Thanks!


Paris CDG does it all the time. Landings on the outer runways, takeoffs on the inner. In busy hours, they will line up several landed aircraft between the runways, and cross them over at one time. They can do up to 3 at a time.
 
LH707330
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Re: Multiple aircraft taxing across an active runway at once?

Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:14 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
timz wrote:
LH707330 wrote:
the controller probably told them "hold short until the A330 turns off, then go."

Do controllers ever do that?


If you're supposed to cross behind a landing aircraft, the clearance would be "Behind the landing A330 cross the runway to x-ray, behind". It becomes a bit trickier if you have to cross beyond the turnoff used by the landing aircraft. I suppose you might have to wait with the clearance until the landing aircraft has slowed to taxi speed...

Thanks for the correction. I've never gotten it myself, so I guessed at the wording.
 
LittleFokker
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Re: Multiple aircraft taxing across an active runway at once?

Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:49 am

I have seen this happen many times at EWR, LAS, and DFW. If a runway crossing is required for arrivals to get to the terminal complex, might as well have 3 or 4 aircraft cross at the time in order to minimize the disruption to both the departure and arrival flow. Granted, it's easier with a middle taxiway between the 2 runways.
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Passedv1
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Re: Multiple aircraft taxing across an active runway at once?

Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:57 am

Having multiple aircraft cross is the normal procedure at busy airports. You allow the arrivals to build up until you got several of them across several taxiways. You pause the departures for a minute and cross everyone then do it again.

It is fairly common for ground to issue runway crossings. It is up to the controller to coordinate with tower. This isn’t a big deal since they are usually standing next to each other and there is always a great deal of coordination between the two.
 
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AirKevin
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Re: Multiple aircraft taxing across an active runway at once?

Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:46 pm

timz wrote:
LH707330 wrote:
the controller probably told them "hold short until the A330 turns off, then go."

Do controllers ever do that?

From listening to LiveATC for JFK, the instructions to cross runway 4L/22R are issued one at a time, so you'll have multiple planes crossing the runway once they're instructed to do so. So once the departing aircraft clears that area, they'll be instructed to cross.
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IAHFLYR
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Re: Multiple aircraft taxing across an active runway at once?

Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:06 pm

atcdan wrote:
LAHSO operations are completely safe, and are only conducted in dry VMC conditions with no tailwind component for the landing aircraft. They are also only authorized for select runways at select airports where it is necessary for the efficiency of the movement of aircraft.

Also, in the USA, you will never have a controller issue a conditional clearance to cross a runway. All runway crossings are stated explicitly to avoid confusion. "ABC123, Cross Runway 1 Right at Alpha, contact ground 121.1, traffic holds in position."

Hope this helps the discussion a little.


Thank you! :)
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
benjjk
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Re: Multiple aircraft taxing across an active runway at once?

Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:23 am

Skildaman wrote:
Hey guys,

I was wondering if there is any regulation/procedures or manuals, photos or examples of multiple aircraft taxing across an active runway? I have researched and I believe this happens commonly at airports like JKF and ATL where aircraft hold short at multiple taxiways and are all cleared to go across at once, but I have no solid evidence of it. I was curious as this doesn't happen in Australia yet and it seems like a more efficient way of getting aircraft back to the terminal more quickly.

Thanks!


It does happen in Australia, it's just most of our airports either lack the traffic or the layout to make it necessary.
 
wagz
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Re: Multiple aircraft taxing across an active runway at once?

Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:15 pm

I've had aircraft cross on at least 5 different taxiways all at the same time while I had a departure holding in position, all while I had an arrival landing on the intersecting runway that's parallel to the crossing taxiways. That's called being efficient.

And as far as conditional clearances go, they don't exist in the US. Still blows my mind hearing my colleagues in Europe tell someone to line up and wait behind the A330 on short final.
Last edited by wagz on Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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wagz
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Re: Multiple aircraft taxing across an active runway at once?

Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:16 pm

I've had aircraft cross on at least 5 different taxiways all at the same time while I had a departure holding in position, all while I had an arrival landing on the intersecting runway that's parallel to the crossing taxiways. That's called being efficient.

And as far as conditional clearances go, they don't exist in the US. Still blows my mind hearing my colleagues in Europe tell someone to line up and wait behind the A330 on short final.
I think Big Foot is blurry... It's not the photographer's fault. There's a large out of focus monster roaming the countryside.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Multiple aircraft taxing across an active runway at once?

Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:02 am

It's what you're used to, I suppose. Pilots from the rest of the world often find the US practice of clearing someone to land before the aircraft ahead has landed somewhat disconcerting.

"Line up behind" clearances do contain extra clarity. Tower says "behind" twice and the aircraft lining up responds with "behind" twice.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo

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