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ClipperYankee
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Couple of go-around questions

Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

I was watching a video of go-arounds at Madeira and it made me think of two questions for pilots or those in the know: if you go around do you need to notify the "home office" or someplace similar (mostly to account for why there was increased fuel consumption on the flight) and also, when the gear is cycled after a go-around is there a counter in the aircraft so it is known that there has been another up/down cycle which I'd imagine would count toward when gear refurbishment must be performed?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qLk7wyBzDM

Looks like a great spot to spend an afternoon, bring a sandwich and watch the action.
 
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24Whiskey
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Re: Couple of go-around questions

Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:29 pm

In the event of a go-around all we need to do is make a simple maintenance logbook entry to account for the extra pressurization cycle. If we needed full thrust (APR thrust in the CRJ) then that’s an additional cycle.

As far as gear wear goes that based on flight hours. If there’s a question about landing with excessive force (+600 Ft/Min at touchdown) then we require a hard landing inspection.
 
Varsity1
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Re: Couple of go-around questions

Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:36 pm

Any time the aircraft makes full power = another cycle (for jets). Alot of aircraft don't have a derate for the TOGA thrust setting for safety purposes as they need to make the published climb gradient gross, not net like a take off. As most go arounds/missed approaches aren't planned, the aircraft assumes the crew doesn't have the time/place of mind to calculate a derated single engine climb gradient on a go around, so it's almost always full power.

Long winded answer, but yes a go around is a cycle, paperwork is air carrier dependent, but most times I would say no reports necessary, crew discretion if an ASAP or something is needed.
 
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Florianopolis
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Re: Couple of go-around questions

Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:45 pm

The airplane might also drop a dime on you if you should have gone around, but did not.
 
NW747-400
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Re: Couple of go-around questions

Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:53 pm

Reporting a go around is a company specific requirement. My company does not require an aircraft logbook entry but does require a safety report to be filed with the flight safety division.

There is no visible cycle counter to the pilots, but most modern aircraft report cycles and hours directly to maintenance via ACARS. I don’t believe retracting the landing gear after a go around is considered a cycle for the landing gear because the gear never absorbed energy from a landing, which is the biggest driver of landing gear life. I’m not 100% sure about that however so I’ll have to defer to the maintenance experts here.
 
Max Q
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Re: Couple of go-around questions

Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:01 pm

No report of any kind required at my airline


And that’s deliberate, you never want a pilot second guessing his or her decision to go around because of perceived paperwork hassles or worse, management questions
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Couple of go-around questions

Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:16 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
Any time the aircraft makes full power = another cycle (for jets). Alot of aircraft don't have a derate for the TOGA thrust setting for safety purposes as they need to make the published climb gradient gross, not net like a take off. As most go arounds/missed approaches aren't planned, the aircraft assumes the crew doesn't have the time/place of mind to calculate a derated single engine climb gradient on a go around, so it's almost always full power.

Long winded answer, but yes a go around is a cycle, paperwork is air carrier dependent, but most times I would say no reports necessary, crew discretion if an ASAP or something is needed.


None of this is correct for Boeing airplanes. All Boeing airplanes have a so-called derated setting for TO/GA thrust. First push of the TO/GA Switch gives you enough thrust for about a 2000 fpm climb. (The thrust levers will only move forward in that mode for windshear protection, so if you overshoot 2000 fpm, so be it. It won't bring the thrust levers back.)

IIRC, there is an EASA regulation that requires this less-than-max-GA selection, so the airplane doesn't pitch up too rapidly if you went to Max GA thrust right away.

Second push of the TO/GA Switch advances to max rated Go-Around thrust.

The 757/767/KC-46 have the first push, as described, but not the second push. You would manually advance the thrust levers to get full GA thrust. All other models have the two TO/GA pushes.

There is also no difference in TO/GA thrust on a Boeing airplane if you are single engine. The airplane doesn't assume the crew doesn't have place of mind to calculate a derated climb gradient. There is no calculation of such. First TO/GA push or second TO/GA push regardless.
 
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ClipperYankee
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Re: Couple of go-around questions

Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:19 pm

Max Q wrote:
No report of any kind required at my airline


And that’s deliberate, you never want a pilot second guessing his or her decision to go around because of perceived paperwork hassles or worse, management questions


No, of course that's very understandable. I meant it more in case the people looking at the numbers wonder why on a flight that almost always uses "x" fuel that one time "y" was used. More in the way of not asking why the consumption was higher since the crew always has good reason to go around and would not do so needlessly.

Thank you for the replies.
 
goboeing
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Re: Couple of go-around questions

Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:11 am

Max Q wrote:
No report of any kind required at my airline


And that’s deliberate, you never want a pilot second guessing his or her decision to go around because of perceived paperwork hassles or worse, management questions


Same where I work as where Max Q works.

Zero paperwork, logbook entries, online reports or explanations, and no-fault go-around policy (either pilot, captain/FO or pilot-flying/pilot-monitoring, can call go-around).
 
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zeke
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Re: Couple of go-around questions

Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:27 am

We have an overshoot box to fill in and landing box to fill in for every flight. Some flights you might have 5-10 go-arounds or rejected landings and 10-20 landings (circuit training).

On a normal line flight we would add an overshoot to the logbook entry. I normally as a matter of course file a brief safety report (not mandatory at all) as often frequent fliers will contact the company asking what happened and they have the information then which is simplified to let them know.

I try and make a PA between approaches to explain and reassure if time permits but that is not always possible.

Frequent flies are kept happy then, and are reassured that the crew were doing their normal role with the passengers safety as the priority.
 
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CarlosSi
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Re: Couple of go-around questions

Sun Aug 26, 2018 4:48 am

In theory could you add a cycle each time just by constantly climbing and descending?
 
Airbii
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Re: Couple of go-around questions

Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:24 am

Varsity1 wrote:
Any time the aircraft makes full power = another cycle (for jets). Alot of aircraft don't have a derate for the TOGA thrust setting for safety purposes as they need to make the published climb gradient gross, not net like a take off. As most go arounds/missed approaches aren't planned, the aircraft assumes the crew doesn't have the time/place of mind to calculate a derated single engine climb gradient on a go around, so it's almost always full power.

Long winded answer, but yes a go around is a cycle, paperwork is air carrier dependent, but most times I would say no reports necessary, crew discretion if an ASAP or something is needed.


Another cycle isn't counted with anytime the aircraft makes full power. Cycles are takeoffs and landings (1 each per flight) and has to do with pressurization cycles for flight. A go around doesn't change or add to more cycles for that flight, it is still one cycle.
 
Airbii
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Re: Couple of go-around questions

Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:27 am

24Whiskey wrote:
In the event of a go-around all we need to do is make a simple maintenance logbook entry to account for the extra pressurization cycle. If we needed full thrust (APR thrust in the CRJ) then that’s an additional cycle.

As far as gear wear goes that based on flight hours. If there’s a question about landing with excessive force (+600 Ft/Min at touchdown) then we require a hard landing inspection.


It's been a little over 6 years since I was on the CRJ, but isn't APR Automatic Performance Reserve? That kicks in when one engine drops below a certain N1 value (eg, failing or failure). A normal go around with both engines operating normally didn't kick in APR. How do you "manually" engage APR on the engines anyway?
 
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24Whiskey
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Re: Couple of go-around questions

Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:38 pm

Airbii wrote:
It's been a little over 6 years since I was on the CRJ, but isn't APR Automatic Performance Reserve? That kicks in when one engine drops below a certain N1 value (eg, failing or failure). A normal go around with both engines operating normally didn't kick in APR. How do you "manually" engage APR on the engines anyway?


On the -900 pushing the thrust levers to the Max Power detent will give you APR as well.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Couple of go-around questions

Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:38 pm

A cycle at my operator is a take-off followed by a landing. There is no requirement, from a maintenance point-of-view to report a go-around, unless that go-around is initiated because of a mechanical issue. And, the reporting is more of an "hey, we had this problem, so we executed a go-around".

Landing gear cycles are counted as airframe cycles. We couldn't care less how many times the gear goes up and down. Engines are basically monitored on condition and have hard time hours for certain modules. We do count cycles, but, once again, we count take-offs for cycles. I can run an engine at take-off power, on the ground, as many times as I need to without reporting it.

Our folks fill out an informational form when a go-around is executed.
 
Airbii
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Re: Couple of go-around questions

Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:37 pm

24Whiskey wrote:
Airbii wrote:
It's been a little over 6 years since I was on the CRJ, but isn't APR Automatic Performance Reserve? That kicks in when one engine drops below a certain N1 value (eg, failing or failure). A normal go around with both engines operating normally didn't kick in APR. How do you "manually" engage APR on the engines anyway?


On the -900 pushing the thrust levers to the Max Power detent will give you APR as well.


Ah I see. :biggrin: I was only on the -200.
 
acmx
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Re: Couple of go-around questions

Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:10 pm

Like fr8mech said, landing gear cycles are airframe cycles. The cycles tell you how many times the gear has taken the stress of landing. They don’t count extension/retraction cycles. The gear overhaul intervals are set by calendar time and cycle limits, whichever comes first.
 
Okcflyer
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Re: Couple of go-around questions

Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:10 am

Interesting topic. While extremely rare for commercial airliners, what is the paperwork for a touch and go (unplanned most likely)
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Couple of go-around questions

Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:35 am

Okcflyer wrote:
Interesting topic. While extremely rare for commercial airliners, what is the paperwork for a touch and go (unplanned most likely)


Not much. In the tech log, the number of touch-and-gos is entered in the appropriate box. Maintenance needs to know how many times the gear slammed into the ground.

Touch-and-gos are performed during base training, so while rare they aren't unheard of. An unplanned touch-and-go is typically known as a "rejected landing".
 
Woodreau
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Re: Couple of go-around questions

Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:28 pm

Depending on when you initiate a go around if you are low enough you might touch down on the main gear and as you advance the thrust levers to go around you’ll get a whole cacophony of master warning and master caution aurals that will catch you off guard if you’re not expecting them.

You just have to stay focused to going around (touch and go) and realize the warnings are going to be a normal response of the airplane doing a configuration check and it realizes it’s not in the proper configuration for go around and not get distracted by the aurals.


There was a time we were told to go around by ATC but because they just launched a departure off the inboard parallel runway we were told to “go around, descend and maintain 2000” in order to keep separation from the departing aircraft. So go around consisted of “Go around, Flaps” a quick advance the thrust levers to the TOGA detent for the purpose of sequencing the FMS for go around and then immediately retarding the thrust levers back to the CLB detent to give thrust control back to the autothrust. Resetting the go around altitude on the FCU to 2000, pulling the altitude knob to initiate an open descent to 2000 and retracting the landing gear.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Couple of go-around questions

Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:15 pm

We (as an industry) need to be careful on our terminology. Cycles on an airframe are not the same as cycles on the landing gear are not the same cycles on the engine.

From an engineering perspective:
Airframe - Dependent on pressurization cycles
Landing Gear - Dependent on weight on wheels
Engine - Dependent mostly on hours, but do track peak thrust settings (usually one per flight, but go arounds are counted if max thrust engaged)

When we size and do analysis on these three structures we do account for some go-arounds and touch and goes based on fleet data. Obviously they don't happen every flight, but they do get sprinkled in.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Couple of go-around questions

Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:06 pm

Woodreau wrote:
Depending on when you initiate a go around if you are low enough you might touch down on the main gear and as you advance the thrust levers to go around you’ll get a whole cacophony of master warning and master caution aurals that will catch you off guard if you’re not expecting them.

You just have to stay focused to going around (touch and go) and realize the warnings are going to be a normal response of the airplane doing a configuration check and it realizes it’s not in the proper configuration for go around and not get distracted by the aurals.


There was a time we were told to go around by ATC but because they just launched a departure off the inboard parallel runway we were told to “go around, descend and maintain 2000” in order to keep separation from the departing aircraft. So go around consisted of “Go around, Flaps” a quick advance the thrust levers to the TOGA detent for the purpose of sequencing the FMS for go around and then immediately retarding the thrust levers back to the CLB detent to give thrust control back to the autothrust. Resetting the go around altitude on the FCU to 2000, pulling the altitude knob to initiate an open descent to 2000 and retracting the landing gear.


Not on a Boeing airplane this won't occur. The only warning you may get is CONFIG GEAR if the landing gear finished retracting before the Flaps finish retracting to Flaps 20. No other Warning or Caution alerts will occur. It's much simpler on a Boeing airplane. You push the TO/GA Switch and the Autothrottle advances and the Autopilot or Flight Directors transition to the TO/GA mode logic. You don't have to do anything special to sequence the FMS or give control back to the Autothrottle. The Spoilers will automatically retract when thrust advances if they were deployed.

TO/GA will work up until the FLARE mode is no longer active meaning you are completely on the ground rolling out.
 
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zeke
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Re: Couple of go-around questions

Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:56 pm

What is is referring to is a rejected landing, not a go around. On a rejected landing the aircraft is on the ground with takeoff thrust applied whilst not in a takeoff configuration. I had thought Boeing aircraft do have Takeoff Configuration Warning Systems (TOCWS) ?
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Couple of go-around questions

Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:28 am

zeke wrote:
What is is referring to is a rejected landing, not a go around. On a rejected landing the aircraft is on the ground with takeoff thrust applied whilst not in a takeoff configuration. I had thought Boeing aircraft do have Takeoff Configuration Warning Systems (TOCWS) ?


Doing a go-around when in flare and the wheels touch is not a rejected landing or touch and go. It’s still a go-around. You are at risk of one Config Warning as I stated.


If you are doing a touch and go or rejected landing and rolling on the ground before advancing thrust (and thus activating the logic for the takeoff config warnings) you’ll likely get two: CONFIG FLAPS and CONFIG STABILIZER. The procedure for a touch and go is the trim into the green band and move the flaps to 20.
 
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zeke
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Re: Couple of go-around questions

Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:51 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
Doing a go-around when in flare and the wheels touch is not a rejected landing or touch and go. It’s still a go-around. You are at risk of one Config Warning as I stated.


If you are doing a touch and go or rejected landing and rolling on the ground before advancing thrust (and thus activating the logic for the takeoff config warnings) you’ll likely get two: CONFIG FLAPS and CONFIG STABILIZER. The procedure for a touch and go is the trim into the green band and move the flaps to 20.


Read his post again, he said advancing the thrust while the aircraft is on the ground, that is a rejected landing. Doing a go-around like on a LVO approach at 75 ft you might through inertia touch down on an Airbus, however you will not get the takeoff configuration warning.

Touch and go and a rejected landing are two different procedures on an Airbus. A touch and go involves fully derotating, configuring the flaps for a normal takeoff configuration and then rotate at the appropriate speed.

Rejected landing thrust is advanced to toga and rotation is made to the normal attitude, no change to configuration. Once airborne again, the standard go-around procedure is followed for gear and flap.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Couple of go-around questions

Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:25 pm

Woodreau wrote:
Depending on when you initiate a go around if you are low enough you might touch down on the main gear and as you advance the thrust levers to go around you’ll get a whole cacophony of master warning and master caution aurals that will catch you off guard if you’re not expecting them.

You just have to stay focused to going around (touch and go) and realize the warnings are going to be a normal response of the airplane doing a configuration check and it realizes it’s not in the proper configuration for go around and not get distracted by the aurals.


There was a time we were told to go around by ATC but because they just launched a departure off the inboard parallel runway we were told to “go around, descend and maintain 2000” in order to keep separation from the departing aircraft. So go around consisted of “Go around, Flaps” a quick advance the thrust levers to the TOGA detent for the purpose of sequencing the FMS for go around and then immediately retarding the thrust levers back to the CLB detent to give thrust control back to the autothrust. Resetting the go around altitude on the FCU to 2000, pulling the altitude knob to initiate an open descent to 2000 and retracting the landing gear.


Nowhere here do I see discussion of a rejected landing or touch and go. We are discussing initiating a go-around at a low enough altitude that the main gear may touch the ground.

In any event, I discussed what potential configuration alerts you may get on Boeing airplanes in either scenario.
 
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zeke
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Re: Couple of go-around questions

Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:23 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
Nowhere here do I see discussion of a rejected landing or touch and go. We are discussing initiating a go-around at a low enough altitude that the main gear may touch the ground.


Try reading up the thread a little where I describe what gets entered in the maintenance long for circuit training.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Couple of go-around questions

Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:44 pm

zeke wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
Nowhere here do I see discussion of a rejected landing or touch and go. We are discussing initiating a go-around at a low enough altitude that the main gear may touch the ground.


Try reading up the thread a little where I describe what gets entered in the maintenance long for circuit training.


Except the title and rest of the thread was about go-arounds, not circuit training. Sorry I wasn't properly responding to one response that one person made about something different. ;)

Anyway, as I said, during a touch and go you have to re-trim back into the Greenband and bring the Flaps up to 20. You will get takeoff config warnings for that.

Another thing I didn't touch on is the SPEEDBRAKE time critical warning that alerts for being on landing rollout (or RTO) and not having the speedbrakes up, when above 80 knots. Of course you'll be rolling above 80 knots with the speedbrakes not up during a touch and go, so will get that warning. 787, 747-8, and KC-46 have this alert. It's optional (for now) on the 737. IIRC correctly, there is some logic that suppresses it when accelerating to account for touch-and-goes but you usually get it once when you stow the speebrakes, or they don't come up in the first place, from what I've seen in the simulator.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Couple of go-around questions

Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:56 pm

If you were properly trimmed on landing, most planes will still be in the “green band”, just a bit too nose up trimmed. A short nose down blip will get the take-off trim set about right. Unless you de-armed the spoilers they should be extended on wheel spin up or whatever triggers them on type, so you’ll have to take the required action to retract them. On a Global, it was push the throttles up enough to auto-stow. I usually had a flight control synoptic displayed to confirm stowed. Set flaps and off you go.


GF

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