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Elshad
Topic Author
Posts: 88
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 8:24 am

747-8 Flight Displays

Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:10 am

Hi,

Does anyone know why the 747-8 didn't get the larger, 787-style, 15 inch LCDs on the flight deck, and instead got basically the same displays as the later 744s?

Seems like a missed opportunity, especially since Boeing seems to be fitting them to almost everything new these days (787, 737 MAX, 777X, KC-46) etc.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 3445
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: 747-8 Flight Displays

Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:01 pm

$$$ and fleet commonality.
 
stratclub
Posts: 1338
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:38 pm

Re: 747-8 Flight Displays

Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:42 pm

As it is, the 747 is on life support so it makes no sense to put a bunch of new engineering into an airplane who's days are numbered. The re-engine made sense because the new engines were being developed more or less along side the 787 engine.
 
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sturmovik
Posts: 707
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 12:05 am

Re: 747-8 Flight Displays

Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:29 pm

I opened this thread thinking it was about 747 flying displays at airshows.. oh well.
'What's it doing now?'
 
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Starlionblue
Posts: 19317
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: 747-8 Flight Displays

Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:20 am

sturmovik wrote:
I opened this thread thinking it was about 747 flying displays at airshows.. oh well.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bC9FNDCCPn8
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
stratclub
Posts: 1338
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:38 pm

Re: 747-8 Flight Displays

Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:59 am

 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 19317
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: 747-8 Flight Displays

Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:10 am

stratclub wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baGSpTrw_LE


:yes: Well played. Very well played. :yes:
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6268
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: 747-8 Flight Displays

Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:37 pm

The 747-8 was developed before the 787 was. I'm not sure if the larger LCD displays were available then.
 
AA737-823
Posts: 5435
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2000 11:10 am

Re: 747-8 Flight Displays

Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:19 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
The 747-8 was developed before the 787 was.


Um, what?
The assembly of the first 747-8 began A YEAR after rollout of the first 787...
I'd expect someone with your username to have that factoid right!

stratclub wrote:
As it is, the 747 is on life support so it makes no sense to put a bunch of new engineering into an airplane who's days are numbered. The re-engine made sense because the new engines were being developed more or less along side the 787 engine.


Whether the 747 is on life support today is hardly material to whether or not it was ten years ago, when the decision to proceed with the -8 revamp was made.
You're trying to convince us that it "made sense" to fit new engines, re-loft the wing, redesign the flaps, completely overhaul the cabin furnishings, alter gear doors (oops, flutter!), stretch the fuselage forward, stretch the fuselage aft, and make various other cockpit ergonomic upgrades.......... but installing bigger display screens makes no sense???


The poor OP still doesn't have a valid answer to his question.
And I can't give one either, because besides for guesses and useless internet "facts," Boeing not using the bigger screens IS a bit of a head-scratcher!
 
Max Q
Posts: 7556
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: 747-8 Flight Displays

Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:41 am

Not really


The most important reason to minimize any change to the displays is to allow a common
type rating between the 744 and 748


Several operators fly both types
and their pilots can switch from
one to the other with just minor
differences training initially, then as
needed
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


Guns and the love of them by a loud minority are a malignant and deadly cancer inflicted on American society
 
BravoOne
Posts: 3445
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: 747-8 Flight Displays

Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:17 am

Until just recently Boeing did not have an approved differences training program for pilots to go from the -8, back to the -400. So if you were a carrier like Cargolux and you put your new pilots into the -8, there was not a quick way to get them -400 qualified. The training is always a debacle waiting in the wings. Commonality trumps everthing.
 
User avatar
747classic
Posts: 2608
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:13 am

Re: 747-8 Flight Displays

Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:00 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Until just recently Boeing did not have an approved differences training program for pilots to go from the -8, back to the -400. So if you were a carrier like Cargolux and you put your new pilots into the -8, there was not a quick way to get them -400 qualified. The training is always a debacle waiting in the wings. Commonality trumps everthing.


The latest update, revision 6 (08-22-2018) of the Flight Standardization Board (FSB) Report 747 can be found here : http://fsims.faa.gov/PICResults.aspx?mo ... %20Reports

- Select Boeing
- Select and double click, 747-100, -200, -SP, -300, -400, 400LCF, -8
- Choose your format.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
stratclub
Posts: 1338
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:38 pm

Re: 747-8 Flight Displays

Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:40 pm

AA737-823 wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
The 747-8 was developed before the 787 was.


Um, what?
The assembly of the first 747-8 began A YEAR after rollout of the first 787...
I'd expect someone with your username to have that factoid right!

stratclub wrote:
As it is, the 747 is on life support so it makes no sense to put a bunch of new engineering into an airplane who's days are numbered. The re-engine made sense because the new engines were being developed more or less along side the 787 engine.


Whether the 747 is on life support today is hardly material to whether or not it was ten years ago, when the decision to proceed with the -8 revamp was made.
You're trying to convince us that it "made sense" to fit new engines, re-loft the wing, redesign the flaps, completely overhaul the cabin furnishings, alter gear doors (oops, flutter!), stretch the fuselage forward, stretch the fuselage aft, and make various other cockpit ergonomic upgrades.......... but installing bigger display screens makes no sense???


The poor OP still doesn't have a valid answer to his question.
And I can't give one either, because besides for guesses and useless internet "facts," Boeing not using the bigger screens IS a bit of a head-scratcher!

You have to remember that the 787 was a clean sheet new model were the 747-8 was more like a midlife refresh. Much of the systems architecture from the 787 would not be compatible with the 747 without some very major and expensive redesign. The 747 panels went to flat panel with the 747-400 refresh so why would it make sense to to redesign the -8 for a very slight if any improvement in crew workload and human factors operating concerns?

With 694 or so 747-400's build and the 747-8 being at the end of the 747's life cycle, it sure makes a lot of sense to have as much commonality between the two models were practical.
 
stratclub
Posts: 1338
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:38 pm

Re: 747-8 Flight Displays

Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:19 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
The 747-8 was developed before the 787 was. I'm not sure if the larger LCD displays were available then.

A lot more to it then just swapping out the screens.

Just a little teaser about the 787's vastly different technology:
https://www.aviationtoday.com/2005/04/0 ... oeing-787/
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6268
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: 747-8 Flight Displays

Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:42 pm

stratclub wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
The 747-8 was developed before the 787 was. I'm not sure if the larger LCD displays were available then.

A lot more to it then just swapping out the screens.

Just a little teaser about the 787's vastly different technology:
https://www.aviationtoday.com/2005/04/0 ... oeing-787/


I'm somewhat familiar with both airplanes. ;)

As another poster pointed out, I had my relative dates off a bit. Maybe they are programs I've been trying to forget........

I actually don't know why it didn't go with the 787 size displays except that the 747-8 was supposed to be minimal change from the 747-400, although it didn't necessarily end up being so.
 
stratclub
Posts: 1338
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:38 pm

Re: 747-8 Flight Displays

Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:48 am

No real reason to put bigger displays in the dash 8. The displays on the -400 work well and are very well integrated. Why fix something that isn't broken? Apparently the customers had no problems with the -400 displays or they would have requested bigger displays, which apparently they didn't.

I think that Boeing's approach was to check as many boxes with the customers as possible for the least amount of money. I'm not saying cheap or cheesy, but making changes that customers thought were worthwhile. I have worked both and really the changes between the two 747 models are not as extensive as folks seem to think.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6268
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: 747-8 Flight Displays

Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:21 am

stratclub wrote:
No real reason to put bigger displays in the dash 8. The displays on the -400 work well and are very well integrated. Why fix something that isn't broken? Apparently the customers had no problems with the -400 displays or they would have requested bigger displays, which apparently they didn't.

I think that Boeing's approach was to check as many boxes with the customers as possible for the least amount of money. I'm not saying cheap or cheesy, but making changes that customers thought were worthwhile. I have worked both and really the changes between the two 747 models are not as extensive as folks seem to think.


There was a thread not too long ago about all the changes between the -400 and -8. Electronic Checklist, Vertical Situation Display, Airport Moving Map, GLS, Integrated Approach Nav come to mind.
 
stratclub
Posts: 1338
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:38 pm

Re: 747-8 Flight Displays

Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:44 am

Well Ya. They refreshed the avionics suite. Hardly an extensive thing. Add some LRU's, antennas, wiring and crew interfaces and roll it into the cost of the airplane. Pretty easy to do on a new build. Once again, value added to the customer where bigger screens weren't.
 
stratclub
Posts: 1338
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:38 pm

Re: 747-8 Flight Displays

Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:45 am

Well Ya. They refreshed the avionics suite. Hardly an extensive thing. Add some LRU's, antennas, wiring and crew interfaces and roll it into the cost of the airplane. Pretty easy to do on a new build. Once again, value added to the customer where bigger screens weren't.
 
Max Q
Posts: 7556
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: 747-8 Flight Displays

Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:45 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
stratclub wrote:
No real reason to put bigger displays in the dash 8. The displays on the -400 work well and are very well integrated. Why fix something that isn't broken? Apparently the customers had no problems with the -400 displays or they would have requested bigger displays, which apparently they didn't.

I think that Boeing's approach was to check as many boxes with the customers as possible for the least amount of money. I'm not saying cheap or cheesy, but making changes that customers thought were worthwhile. I have worked both and really the changes between the two 747 models are not as extensive as folks seem to think.


There was a thread not too long ago about all the changes between the -400 and -8. Electronic Checklist, Vertical Situation Display, Airport Moving Map, GLS, Integrated Approach Nav come to mind.




Can any or all of those changes
be retrofitted to the -400 aircraft
allowing for complete ‘commonality’
between the two variants ?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


Guns and the love of them by a loud minority are a malignant and deadly cancer inflicted on American society
 
stratclub
Posts: 1338
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:38 pm

Re: 747-8 Flight Displays

Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:40 am

Anything is possible with enough money, but IMHO it would be cheaper for operators of both types to just keep spares for both types. No U.S carrier operates -400 anymore except for UPS which has only 12 (WIKIPEDIA). As it is now, there is no shortage of -400 specific spare parts for the -400 from scrapped aircraft. And also, there is still commonality between the 2 types so some -400 parts could end up on -8's.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news ... -they-now/
 
stratclub
Posts: 1338
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:38 pm

Re: 747-8 Flight Displays

Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:10 pm

Sorry. My bad. I meant to say that no U.S. passenger carriers operates 747-400's. Of course that's wrong as well. Atlas has 6 -400 passenger planes available for lease. So much for my sloppy research and biased opinion.

Atlas is a good study because they do operate both types as well as the Boeing 747-400 LCF so they are one carrier that might be doing -400 avionics upgrades. Not really an answer either...............
 
User avatar
747classic
Posts: 2608
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:13 am

Re: 747-8 Flight Displays

Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:51 am

Max Q wrote:

Can any or all of those changes
be retrofitted to the -400 aircraft
allowing for complete ‘commonality’
between the two variants ?


Not complete commonality, but the standard 744 FMC can also be upgraded to 747-8 NGFMC standard by changing of some FMC cards and if required : replacing of older 744 displays plus some minor wiring changes. A retrofit kit is offered by Boeing/Honeywell.

AFAIK BA has retrofitted some 744's with these new NGFMC's.

For some background info see : viewtopic.php?t=767387

And : https://www.boeing.com/commercial/aerom ... 2011_q4/5/
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
Noshow
Posts: 936
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: 747-8 Flight Displays

Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:39 am

Airline customers operating it want no new parts and additonal part numbers. The 747-8 is targeted to existing 747 customers. If they have a working display it's good to keep it. A redesigned 747-8 cockpit would only have made mixed version ops and qualificiation more difficult.
 
Max Q
Posts: 7556
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: 747-8 Flight Displays

Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:36 pm

747classic wrote:
Max Q wrote:

Can any or all of those changes
be retrofitted to the -400 aircraft
allowing for complete ‘commonality’
between the two variants ?


Not complete commonality, but the standard 744 FMC can also be upgraded to 747-8 NGFMC standard by changing of some FMC cards and if required : replacing of older 744 displays plus some minor wiring changes. A retrofit kit is offered by Boeing/Honeywell.

AFAIK BA has retrofitted some 744's with these new NGFMC's.

For some background info see : viewtopic.php?t=767387

And : https://www.boeing.com/commercial/aerom ... 2011_q4/5/




Thanks 74C for the interesting and
informative reply
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


Guns and the love of them by a loud minority are a malignant and deadly cancer inflicted on American society

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