greendot
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Class II navigation logs

Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:58 pm

Does anyone know what government document or regulation "requires" a Class II navigation log?

I know different companies impose their own variations of Class II logs and such but I can't find a federal requirement for it. Some things appear to be covered via OpSpec such as the need to fix your position going into and out of oceanic airspace if the RNAV system doesn't rely on GNSS.

I'm trying to differentiate between federal law, OpSpec, company policy, technique, and best practice (e.g. it's always been done that way).

Thanks
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Class II navigation logs

Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:13 pm

ICAO Annex 6, Part 1, Chapter 11.



Gf
 
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zeke
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Re: Class II navigation logs

Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:12 am

Absolutely no requirement to have any form of electronic log, a paper log, paper charts etc is perfectly fine.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
greendot
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Re: Class II navigation logs

Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:06 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
ICAO Annex 6, Part 1, Chapter 11.

Gf


I took a look at it but I can't find anything specific that requires a Class II oceanic log. I see it requires a journey log and a flight plan (4.3.3.1) but the flight plan is not the same thing as a navigation log. Did I miss something?
 
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zeke
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Re: Class II navigation logs

Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:14 am

Technically the flight plan is what is submitted to ATC.

Most computerised flight plans these days include the filed flight plan, relevant mass and balance, the navigation log (waypoints, tracks, distances, winds, ground speeds, levels, MRA etc), and fuel log in one document.

BTW Class II Navigation used to be defined in AC 91-70A, I think that has been withdrawn.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
BravoOne
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Re: Class II navigation logs

Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:10 pm

Different OpSpecs for various operators regarding the need to plot. I have seen the BA and Qantas pilots brag that they don't need no stinkn plotting charts while on operating on the NAT, which is contrary to the nAT Dcoc 0072018 edition.
 
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zeke
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Re: Class II navigation logs

Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:24 pm

Qantas does not fly NAT.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
greendot
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Re: Class II navigation logs

Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:43 am

zeke wrote:
Technically the flight plan is what is submitted to ATC.

Most computerised flight plans these days include the filed flight plan, relevant mass and balance, the navigation log (waypoints, tracks, distances, winds, ground speeds, levels, MRA etc), and fuel log in one document.

BTW Class II Navigation used to be defined in AC 91-70A, I think that has been withdrawn.


It looks like AC 91-70B requires something that resembles a nav log. There's no specific format per sey, but when you piece together all the required elements, it ends up looking like a nav log. Also, it does make reference the the notion used while flying in oceanic airspace.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Class II navigation logs

Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:06 pm

zeke wrote:
Qantas does not fly NAT.


You are correct, they don't, fly it anymore. How about CX, do you plot or even carry a plotting chart in the event of a reroute?
 
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zeke
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Re: Class II navigation logs

Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:03 pm

Have a route plot in the flight plan package for every ETOPS or long haul route. The flight plan package includes the flight plan, Navigation log, notams, weather, aircraft status, route plot, etc.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
BravoOne
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Re: Class II navigation logs

Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:36 pm

zeke wrote:
Have a route plot in the flight plan package for every ETOPS or long haul route. The flight plan package includes the flight plan, Navigation log, notams, weather, aircraft status, route plot, etc.


That's solid advice and remember to retain that package for at least 120 days so if a question comes up you have a record of what happened. Again, most of these items would defined in your respective OpsSpecs or LOA, but remember that the POI can write just about set of rules his imagination can come up with.

Spoke to a FAA, Navigation Specialist out of the FAA International Field Office at KSFO last month and even he was vague on how these rules are applied these days, so it's no wonderer this remains an elusive subject.
 
747Whale
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Re: Class II navigation logs

Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:03 pm

greendot wrote:
It looks like AC 91-70B requires something that resembles a nav log. There's no specific format per sey, but when you piece together all the required elements, it ends up looking like a nav log. Also, it does make reference the the notion used while flying in oceanic airspace.


An advisory circular can't require anything. That's why it's advisory.

https://www.notams.faa.gov/downloads/MN ... ersion.pdf

Plotting Chart
A plotting chart of appropriate scale should be used for all remote oceanic operations. This includes using a plotting chart for published oceanic routes and tracks. ICAO groups who review oceanic errors have determined that the routine use of a plotting chart is an excellent aid to reduce lateral errors. A plotting chart can also serve as a critical aid in case of partial or total navigation failure. It should be noted that the pilot should read from the plotting chart back to the master CFP when verifying data. To read from the Master CFP to the plotting chart is a human factor’s issue that has lead to errors based on seeing what we expect to see
 
nws2002
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Re: Class II navigation logs

Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:43 pm

ACs are advisory, but once you add it to the GOM or OpSpecs you have to follow it. The AC normally says it is "one method of compliance" so many will follow the AC guidance to obtain approval from the FAA.
 
greendot
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Re: Class II navigation logs

Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:53 am

nws2002 wrote:
ACs are advisory, but once you add it to the GOM or OpSpecs you have to follow it. The AC normally says it is "one method of compliance" so many will follow the AC guidance to obtain approval from the FAA.


I wonder where the FAA gets the authority to make a GOM or OpSpecs a legal requirement? We all accept this but I've never seen a CFR that gives authority to these types of documents. Are these law, regulation, or policy? All three of those are legally different.
 
747Whale
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Re: Class II navigation logs

Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:09 am

The operations manual (FOM, GOM, etc) are FAA required and FAA approved documents, with page-by-page and overall document approval and acceptance by the principal operations inspector for the certificate holder. The regulatory requirement is spelled out in 14 CFR 121 Subpart G.

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?S ... g&rgn=div6

Your question is specific to the authority of the FAA, which comes from an Act of Congress: the Federal Aviation Act of 1958, as amended.

Operations Specifications are required under 14 CFR 119, which spells out the details of operating certificates.

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?S ... 7&rgn=div8

The Code of Federal Regulation is just what the name implies: regulation.

We all accept this because we all understand the regulation we all operate under. If we don't, then we need to read it, do we not?

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