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Buyantukhaa
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737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:21 am

Last week I flew FR on an almost full 737-800; we were sat at the back of the plane, deboarding used only a jetbridge so exit was through the front only. At some point, when just over half of the pax had left already, there was an announcement by the cabin crew on the PA urging the remaining pax to move forward quickly as the plane was unbalanced. None of the pax seem to care the slightest so deboarding carried on at the usual pace; about a minute later the announcement was repeated with the cabin crew sounding stressed. Again, no effect on the pax.

I've never heard such an announcement on any of the hundreds of flights that I've flown; while I have boarded ATRs at the rear door where I could see a tail stand placed to avoid tipping over, I'd never expect this to be an issue on a 737! Is this common? And also, does the 737 have sensors in its gear that somehow measure the weight distribution - and if not, how would they have known? Or could it be because they didn't have a lot of hold luggage and put it all in the rear hold only? I'm still puzzled.
I scratch my head, therefore I am.
 
NozPerry
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:32 am

It is common, there’s normally a page regarding tail tip prevention in cabin crew Manuals. Normally if it’s the front door in use we stop passengers when they get to the front to allow other passengers to come forward also so it’s not leaving the weight spread out towards the rear.

There is a light that comes on in flight deck when weight comes off the wheels but I can’t for the life of me what the light says
I love the feel of a Go Around in the morning
 
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Chapmads
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:54 am

I was at KSEA last week and noticed that AS mounts yellow support poles at the rear of their gated 738s for support.
 
parapente
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:45 pm

The one aircraft where you do come across it frequently is the 757-300.The 'front end' 'must' leave last.
 
airlineaddict
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:56 pm

Have not heard that on 738 but definitely on 739. Many airlines have a stand they put under the tail before disembarking.
 
hiflyeras
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:57 pm

It's not an issue on the -800...it's the 737-900 that needs a tail stand. AS has them in all stations and tries to mitigate their use by unloading the rear pit first to keep weight in the forward pit during deplaning. But at times, deplaning will be held for a minute until the agent is notified that the tailstand is in place.
 
iahcsr
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:16 pm

hiflyeras wrote:
It's not an issue on the -800...it's the 737-900 that needs a tail stand. AS has them in all stations and tries to mitigate their use by unloading the rear pit first to keep weight in the forward pit during deplaning. But at times, deplaning will be held for a minute until the agent is notified that the tailstand is in place.

UA has a specific procedure for 789 arrivals as to if a given flight is a ‘tail tip’ warning. If so then the jet bridge is to be stopped short of the aircraft until a tail stand is in place. There is no such concern for the 738 or Max9.
Working Hard, Flying Right Friendly....
 
WorldFlier
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:36 pm

parapente wrote:
The one aircraft where you do come across it frequently is the 757-300.The 'front end' 'must' leave last.


Really? It seems like First Class (in front of the door) leaves as they want on UAs last time I was on it...
 
skipness1E
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:45 pm

Never seen it with Ryanair, they load the bags into the forward hold only to mitigate this I believe.
 
B737MAX
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:50 pm

hiflyeras wrote:
It's not an issue on the -800...it's the 737-900 that needs a tail stand. AS has them in all stations and tries to mitigate their use by unloading the rear pit first to keep weight in the forward pit during deplaning. But at times, deplaning will be held for a minute until the agent is notified that the tailstand is in place.


It IS an issue on the -800. It all depends on how it is loaded (obviously).

AFT CG = lower fuel burn.
Some airlines therefore choose to load more weight in the rear (by loading more luggage in hold 3&4 than in hold 2&1) and in the scenario mentionned on the first post, tailtipping could occur.
 
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NameOmitted
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:52 pm

iahcsr wrote:
There is no such concern for the 738 or Max9.


How did they fix it on the Max9?
 
Skym88
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:52 pm

There concern is for the 738 NGs, not the Max’s.


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albertocsc
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:16 pm

Yes, this problem in the 737-800 is real and, while I have never seem them tip, from the front of the plane you can notice the plane oscillating.
By the way, what route were you flying? I guess we might be on the same flight.
 
BC77008
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:32 pm

I was thinking it was maybe just the crew frustrated by the glacial pace of deboarding, but from the comments above it looks like this is a real thing!
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ericm2031
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:03 pm

For AS we use tail stands on 738’s too as a precaution to make the risk 0 of a tail tip.
 
trijetsonly
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:10 pm

NameOmitted wrote:
iahcsr wrote:
There is no such concern for the 738 or Max9.


How did they fix it on the Max9?


not completely sure about the Max9 but on the NEO it helps that the engines are heavier and are attached a little bit more forward of the wing.
That's the same with the Max. The LEAP engine is mounted something like 15" more forward which prevents tail tipping a bit more than on the NG.
Happy Landings
 
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madpropsyo
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:15 pm

Considering this is FR they were probably under pressure to turn the aircraft quickly and just used the excuse to hurry people off the plane.
 
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Buyantukhaa
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:32 pm

madpropsyo wrote:
Considering this is FR they were probably under pressure to turn the aircraft quickly and just used the excuse to hurry people off the plane.

Not in this case, the plane didn't fly until the next day.
albertocsc wrote:
Yes, this problem in the 737-800 is real and, while I have never seem them tip, from the front of the plane you can notice the plane oscillating.
By the way, what route were you flying? I guess we might be on the same flight.

LCA-BRU
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FatCat
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:38 pm

I fly FR very frequently and indeed, in 90% of the cases, disembarkment takes place through front door only.
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arcticcruiser
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:13 pm

parapente wrote:
The one aircraft where you do come across it frequently is the 757-300.The 'front end' 'must' leave last.


No. Your statement is pure manure.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:22 pm

FatCat wrote:
I fly FR very frequently and indeed, in 90% of the cases, disembarkment takes place through front door only.

Isn't the vast majority of 737's (and A319/20/21) deplaned using the L1 door?

The only narrowbody jet I remember NOT boarding through L1 is the 757.
 
737tanker
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:22 pm

hiflyeras wrote:
It's not an issue on the -800...it's the 737-900 that needs a tail stand. AS has them in all stations and tries to mitigate their use by unloading the rear pit first to keep weight in the forward pit during deplaning. But at times, deplaning will be held for a minute until the agent is notified that the tailstand is in place.

It is a problem on the 737-800 and WN has just started using tail stands on their -800 NGs (I’m not sure about their MAXs).
 
737MAX7
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:30 pm

hiflyeras wrote:
It's not an issue on the -800...it's the 737-900 that needs a tail stand. AS has them in all stations and tries to mitigate their use by unloading the rear pit first to keep weight in the forward pit during deplaning. But at times, deplaning will be held for a minute until the agent is notified that the tailstand is in place.

It most certainly is an issue on the -800. Yes the -900 is more susceptible but I’ve seen 3 -800s tipped in my 6 years on the ramp with WN and many more almost tip. There is a reason we’ve ordered tail stands to be used on every -800 arrival now.
 
737MAX7
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:32 pm

737tanker wrote:
hiflyeras wrote:
It's not an issue on the -800...it's the 737-900 that needs a tail stand. AS has them in all stations and tries to mitigate their use by unloading the rear pit first to keep weight in the forward pit during deplaning. But at times, deplaning will be held for a minute until the agent is notified that the tailstand is in place.

It is a problem on the 737-800 and WN has just started using tail stands on their -800 NGs (I’m not sure about their MAXs).

No tail stands on the MAX, allegedly Boeing fixed the center of gravity issue on the MAX.
 
Pontius
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:53 pm

Could never happen.
Image
Image

And a slow Delta squat: https://youtu.be/_xpftx2aIwg
 
jethawk
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:31 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
parapente wrote:
The one aircraft where you do come across it frequently is the 757-300.The 'front end' 'must' leave last.


Really? It seems like First Class (in front of the door) leaves as they want on UAs last time I was on it...


There is little to no risk of a tail tip incident on the 757 family. Have it be the 200 or 300. The 737-900 is extremely prone to tail tips and the 737-800 is susceptible if loaded incorrectly.
 
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exFWAOONW
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:01 pm

I take it no-one here has ever seen a 727? or DC8-63?

It's "possible" with almost any aircraft. On most you have to work very hard to make it happen, some take no work at all.. At DCA someone didn't understand what a positive stab setting meant, and an A320 sat on its tail as soon as the push-back tug disconnected.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
chrisair
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:48 pm

NozPerry wrote:
There is a light that comes on in flight deck when weight comes off the wheels but I can’t for the life of me what the light says


"You're about to be on the news."

737MAX7 wrote:
It most certainly is an issue on the -800. Yes the -900 is more susceptible but I’ve seen 3 -800s tipped in my 6 years on the ramp with WN and many more almost tip. There is a reason we’ve ordered tail stands to be used on every -800 arrival now.


I saw them training a cadre of ramp people with the tail stands the other day at PHX. I've also waited on a WN 738 for them to get bags out of the back pit so we didn't tip.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:26 pm

jethawk wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
parapente wrote:
The one aircraft where you do come across it frequently is the 757-300.The 'front end' 'must' leave last.


Really? It seems like First Class (in front of the door) leaves as they want on UAs last time I was on it...


There is little to no risk of a tail tip incident on the 757 family. Have it be the 200 or 300. The 737-900 is extremely prone to tail tips and the 737-800 is susceptible if loaded incorrectly.


It has nothing to do with loading incorrectly. 738s are loaded for cg reasons. So the best loading method may not be the best offloading method. At my airline with a full load of pax on 738s they are loaded front heavy with sometimes nothing or very little in the back which is dependent on cargo and bags. At the destination now, once pax weight surpasses the weight in the front cargo bins you will get the front landing gear extension which is the precursor for a tail tip
 
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litz
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:45 pm

NameOmitted wrote:
iahcsr wrote:
There is no such concern for the 738 or Max9.


How did they fix it on the Max9?


Presumably the way the LEAP engines are mounted moves the CG noseward enough to mitigate this.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:59 pm

There is a video on YouTube where one ramper getting in the rear cargo hold of an A321 caused the plane to tip

https://youtu.be/tgktrfUJbj4

Planes can be extremely sensivitive, especially since fuel burn can improve with a slightly aft CG. There are manuals telling how cargo should be loaded and unloaded. If all the passengers in the front race off, and if the forward cargo hold is emptied first, it can happen.

Freighters tie down the nose to prevent this.
 
arcticcruiser
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:53 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
There is a video on YouTube where one ramper getting in the rear cargo hold of an A321 caused the plane to tip

https://youtu.be/tgktrfUJbj4

Planes can be extremely sensivitive, especially since fuel burn can improve with a slightly aft CG. There are manuals telling how cargo should be loaded and unloaded. If all the passengers in the front race off, and if the forward cargo hold is emptied first, it can happen.

Freighters tie down the nose to prevent this.


Hmmm, I have flown 4 different jet freighters types and not once seen a nose tie-down. Tail posts yes.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:30 pm

arcticcruiser wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
There is a video on YouTube where one ramper getting in the rear cargo hold of an A321 caused the plane to tip

https://youtu.be/tgktrfUJbj4

Planes can be extremely sensivitive, especially since fuel burn can improve with a slightly aft CG. There are manuals telling how cargo should be loaded and unloaded. If all the passengers in the front race off, and if the forward cargo hold is emptied first, it can happen.

Freighters tie down the nose to prevent this.


Hmmm, I have flown 4 different jet freighters types and not once seen a nose tie-down. Tail posts yes.


Tailstands and nose tethers are used. I am surprised you never have seen tie downs. Tethering the nose gear is preferred by some of the big cargo operators like FedEx at congested hubs since it reduces ground equipment and congestion.
 
caaardiff
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:37 pm

I know some Airlines adopt load front first/offload front last procedure to avoid this issue. TUI being one of them. It could've been a number of reasons, possibly they offloaded the front hold first. If I remember all the hand luggage gets loaded into the front hold, given FR's new hand luggage policy and LCA likely being heavily loaded with checked bags too, could it be that more checked bags are making their way to the back hold to leave space in the front for increased hand luggage being taken?
 
FatCat
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:30 am

WayexTDI wrote:
FatCat wrote:
I fly FR very frequently and indeed, in 90% of the cases, disembarkment takes place through front door only.

Isn't the vast majority of 737's (and A319/20/21) deplaned using the L1 door?

The only narrowbody jet I remember NOT boarding through L1 is the 757.

A320, it was Y2K and I was disembarking in SSH in August at 14:00, from the back door... remember very well because I was thinking engines were still running, but no, it was normal temperature :boggled:
DC-9s, MD-8x / 90 and also 727s had the back entrance, never flown on a 727, but on every MD-8x and -90 I've been on, the rear entrance was used for embarking only, never to disembark.
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Andy33
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:28 am

FatCat wrote:
I fly FR very frequently and indeed, in 90% of the cases, disembarkment takes place through front door only.


And yet I've never been on a Ryanair flight where disembarkation was not through front and rear doors. I suspect it entirely depends on which airports you travel between. Ryanair's publicly expressed preference is to avoid using jetbridges where ever they can, and given their fondness for turning a 189 seat 738 in 25 minutes, that positively demands the use of their factory fitted front stairs and a set of mobile airstairs at the rear. At my nearest airport (EMA) Ryanair never use the couple of gates with jetbridges, and invariably deplanes through front and rear doors simultaneously onto the apron.
 
FatCat
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:27 am

Andy33 wrote:
FatCat wrote:
I fly FR very frequently and indeed, in 90% of the cases, disembarkment takes place through front door only.


And yet I've never been on a Ryanair flight where disembarkation was not through front and rear doors. I suspect it entirely depends on which airports you travel between. Ryanair's publicly expressed preference is to avoid using jetbridges where ever they can, and given their fondness for turning a 189 seat 738 in 25 minutes, that positively demands the use of their factory fitted front stairs and a set of mobile airstairs at the rear. At my nearest airport (EMA) Ryanair never use the couple of gates with jetbridges, and invariably deplanes through front and rear doors simultaneously onto the apron.

I don't remember my last FR flight (PSA-EIN-PSA two weeks ago) was disembarked via finger (cannot remember if EIN does actually have fingers...) but with much probability we've been disembarked through front door only because I do remember waiting more than 20 minutes (was in row 32) to disembark. We stepped in for the return flight without using the finger, and through both doors.
in FUE we were disembarked and embarked via finger
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Ty134A
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:00 am

the 738 is a challenge concerning tail tipping. generally a 738 and to a lesser extend a 739 does not pose a big problem if a real business class is installed, since for flight balance then the forward hold will most likely be used. so when people leave the plane, there will be weight in the forward compartment, but you still need an eye on the nosewheel!

if you take a 186pax 738 with virtually no galley up front, and all the deadload weight due to trim reasons in the aft hold, you can be in trouble. by the way, take jet2's 733, same problem there. standard loading is mostly aft, and then the plane makes some 15cm up after the first 20 or so pax go off... sometimes so fast, that the jetbridges can't compensate the nose up movement.

never the less, tail tipping has nothing to do with the cg, but very much with the location of the mlg. a dc9 had no such issues, neither had the fokker 100, the 70 maybe a bit. no issues with 752, TU3, big issues with TU5... and of course IL6 with no issues due to the on board tail stand.

the AT7 is a piece of [email protected]@@ if it comes to about anything. i remember seeing one with the nose gear airborn, standing on the mlg and tail stand (which should mean AOG - but with that airline nobody cared).

the a320 sould not pose any problems at all. only with LX some smart ass in the back office found it good if they move most of the catering supplies to the back galley for an aft, fuel saving cg. aaaaaand they are right, 180 pax and 2 full cargo bays will give the 320 a good aft cg. but wait... what was that? aaaah, you have 125 in economy, and 5 empty business rows? well, this will make the a320 vitrually unbalancable, so we have to reseat pax....aaaand not even use the aft hold for a fart! ooooh, and please do not empty the forward cargo bay until the cpt allows you to do so!

i know of charter operators with bulk a321, that can become critical with 212 pax and about 3to aft including hold "5", but anything with containes is no big deal.

so ground stability is a constructional problem with the 738/9 and AT7, and a management problem if found on other types.

widebodies are not so much of a problem... only the combies 744 and i believe M11, D10 were complicated.
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Amsterdam
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:22 am

NozPerry wrote:
It is common, there’s normally a page regarding tail tip prevention in cabin crew Manuals. Normally if it’s the front door in use we stop passengers when they get to the front to allow other passengers to come forward also so it’s not leaving the weight spread out towards the rear.

There is a light that comes on in flight deck when weight comes off the wheels but I can’t for the life of me what the light says



PSEU light probably when the front wheel lifts.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:26 pm

FatCat wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
FatCat wrote:
I fly FR very frequently and indeed, in 90% of the cases, disembarkment takes place through front door only.

Isn't the vast majority of 737's (and A319/20/21) deplaned using the L1 door?

The only narrowbody jet I remember NOT boarding through L1 is the 757.

A320, it was Y2K and I was disembarking in SSH in August at 14:00, from the back door... remember very well because I was thinking engines were still running, but no, it was normal temperature :boggled:

Let us analyze the question I asked, shall we:
- Isn't: current tense not past tense, meaning "nowadays, around 2018, not 20 years ago";
- the vast majority: "there are always examples of the contrary, but as a general rule".
So, your specific example of deplaning an A320 from the back door in 2000 falls in the category of "the exception that confirms the rule", and not in the general rule.
I don't know which airline you flew, but don't you think it had more to do with the airport (Sharm El Sheikh, Egypt) than the type of aircraft?

FatCat wrote:
DC-9s, MD-8x / 90 and also 727s had the back entrance, never flown on a 727, but on every MD-8x and -90 I've been on, the rear entrance was used for embarking only, never to disembark.

The number of DC-9 Series (up to and including MD90) flying in pax service is on the constant decline and nowhere near the number of 737's and A320 Family. Let's not even talk about the 727.
Why did I focus on the 737 and A320? Because they are direct competitor of each other, fly similar missions/profiles, are of the same general configuration (engine placement, entrance/emergency doors, etc...); and because you did mention Ryanair (FR), which is a heavy user of the 737.
 
twaconnie
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:58 pm

Wow I have made a lot of flights on 727's and never gave it a thought that this plane must be tail heavy with the weight of 3 engines in the rear.I guess Boeing did a good balancing act..
 
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exFWAOONW
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:39 pm

twaconnie wrote:
Wow I have made a lot of flights on 727's and never gave it a thought that this plane must be tail heavy with the weight of 3 engines in the rear.I guess Boeing did a good balancing act..

SOP was to lower the tail stairs to prop up the tail. Also 727s kept about 4-6k pounds of fuel in the center tank to provide weight in front of the main landing gear.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
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itripreport
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:58 pm

Actually last week while deboarding a VivaAerobus A320, a ground staff came running into the PA, urging passengers to stand as far back as possible? This delayed debaoarding by around 10 minutes. I was the last one to get off before the crew impeded the way. Really not sure what would cause for crew to ask everyone to stand at the back... but it sure was weird and a first for me
 
maps4ltd
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Re: 737-800 tipping risk at deboarding?

Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:07 pm

737tanker wrote:
hiflyeras wrote:
It's not an issue on the -800...it's the 737-900 that needs a tail stand. AS has them in all stations and tries to mitigate their use by unloading the rear pit first to keep weight in the forward pit during deplaning. But at times, deplaning will be held for a minute until the agent is notified that the tailstand is in place.

It is a problem on the 737-800 and WN has just started using tail stands on their -800 NGs (I’m not sure about their MAXs).


Yes, last week I was flying STL-LGA on a WN 738, and I observed them using a tail stand for about ten minutes during deboarding. I had no clue what it was at the time.
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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos