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afterburner
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A350 with the same fuselage width as 787

Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:49 am

How much weight would be reduced if A350 fuselage was designed with the same with as 787? Would it be significant?
 
jupiter2
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Re: A350 with the same fuselage width as 787

Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:36 am

No idea, but everyone on this site would be complaining when airlines stick 9 abreast in economy in it.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: A350 with the same fuselage width as 787

Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:43 am

Probably a few ton. Why do you ask though?

The A350 is simply bigger than the 787 in every specification. Bigger doesn't make it better. Every aircraft is a compromise of attributes.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: A350 with the same fuselage width as 787

Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:45 am

RJMAZ wrote:
Probably a few ton. Why do you ask though?

The A350 is simply bigger than the 787 in every specification. Bigger doesn't make it better. Every aircraft is a compromise of attributes.


The OP asked how much weight would be reduced, there was no comment about anything being better whatsoever.
 
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Nomadd
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Re: A350 with the same fuselage width as 787

Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:51 am

It's not so simple. A fuselage that long would get weaker as it got narrower and require strengthening to carry the load. The shape and where you put the floor would also probably be a little different. Would the landing gear be the same? There would be a hundred decisions to make which could all affect weight. The 350 and 787 are different types of structures.
 
EBJ68
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Re: A350 with the same fuselage width as 787

Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:01 am

Airbus designed the A350 to have a wider than normal fuselage to provide a better flying experience for passengers. If Airbus were to make changes to the A350 to make it more competitive with the 787, I'm certain they'd take a more traditional approach to weight savings than narrowing the fuselage. As it is, the A350 seems to have its niche and customers aren't complaining about it. Changes to the airplane will likely come down to fine tuning it to meet specific customer requirements, assuming the customers request(s) is/are practical.
 
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zeke
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Re: A350 with the same fuselage width as 787

Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:07 am

afterburner wrote:
How much weight would be reduced if A350 fuselage was designed with the same with as 787? Would it be significant?


The actual reduction in weight in the fuselage would not be significant, it then sets the tone for all the other systems and structures.

The wing and engine placement would need to be changed.

EBJ68 wrote:
Airbus designed the A350 to have a wider than normal fuselage to provide a better flying experience for passengers.


Define wider than normal ?

What is “normal” ?
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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afterburner
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Re: A350 with the same fuselage width as 787

Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:28 am

RJMAZ wrote:
Why do you ask though?

I was just curious. If the weight reduction is significant, the fuel burn rate reduction would also be significant. It would make the aircraft more competitive in the market.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: A350 with the same fuselage width as 787

Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:06 am

afterburner wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
Why do you ask though?

I was just curious. If the weight reduction is significant, the fuel burn rate reduction would also be significant. It would make the aircraft more competitive in the market.

That is what i thought. But as I said aircraft are compromises. A narrower fuselage could make the A350 less competitive. Some airlines might appreciate the extra 0.5" of seat width or require the extra payload/range over the 787.

The A350 closely matches the 777W in terms of payload range. When all the 777W's need to get replaced the A350 will probably capture more of that market than the 777X will.

There is definitely a trend of airlines picking the smallest aircraft that can fly their routes. This gives an advantage to the A350 over the 777X. The 787 being smallest gives it an advantage over the A350 and is partly why it is selling so well.
 
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Aesma
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Re: A350 with the same fuselage width as 787

Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:06 am

Maybe the question is about the 2 approaches used in actually building the fuselages : barrels for the 787, panels for the A350 ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
LH707330
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Re: A350 with the same fuselage width as 787

Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:51 pm

Given the objective of the 900/1000 combination, the diameter might actually have been the right play call, given that too high OR low a fineness ratio increases weight. The 343/333 had better weight/packaging efficiency versus the 77E, while the 77W was better than the 346. Given B starting with the 788 and 789, and A aiming more at the higher end, both manufacturers may have made the right play calls for the whole family. Now there's a chance that the 359 is a bit too wide as an individual model (I suspect the 789 is in about the sweet spot), but for the family it probably makes sense.
 
WIederling
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Re: A350 with the same fuselage width as 787

Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:34 pm

Aesma wrote:
Maybe the question is about the 2 approaches used in actually building the fuselages : barrels for the 787, panels for the A350 ?

A350 is larger, has a much larger wing but does not fully reflect that in OEW increase. another 767 vs A330 runoff :-)
Looks like the panel van approach results in lighter structure.
Murphy is an optimist
 
stratclub
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Re: A350 with the same fuselage width as 787

Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:41 pm

jupiter2 wrote:
No idea, but everyone on this site would be complaining when airlines stick 9 abreast in economy in it.

Being the the cabin width at armrest level for the 350 is only 4.8 inches more or 1/2 inch more per seat, than the 787, what would we be complaining about? Having to ride economy in either airplane perhaps?
 
strfyr51
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Re: A350 with the same fuselage width as 787

Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:52 pm

The A350 was to knock off the B787 in sales. Airbus waited until the B787 was in production with their single wound fuselage before they went with the carbon panels over the aluminum frame . They have relatively none of the same architecture in systems nor integration. The A350 is not much more than an A330 with a carbon skin. While the B787 is a whole new concept, There IS no real comparison to the Two. Those who want the A350 want the A350 and those who want the B787? Want that airplane. I would still like to see both airplanes flown by One Airline head to Head and see what the Data tells us about performance. Especially? Since they have little or no concept similarities
 
Max Q
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Re: A350 with the same fuselage width as 787

Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:26 am

strfyr51 wrote:
The A350 was to knock off the B787 in sales. Airbus waited until the B787 was in production with their single wound fuselage before they went with the carbon panels over the aluminum frame . They have relatively none of the same architecture in systems nor integration. The A350 is not much more than an A330 with a carbon skin. While the B787 is a whole new concept, There IS no real comparison to the Two. Those who want the A350 want the A350 and those who want the B787? Want that airplane. I would still like to see both airplanes flown by One Airline head to Head and see what the Data tells us about performance. Especially? Since they have little or no concept similarities



I thought the A350 fuselage used a composite frame with composite skin ?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


Guns and the love of them by a loud minority are a malignant and deadly cancer inflicted on American society
 
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zeke
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Re: A350 with the same fuselage width as 787

Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:31 am

strfyr51 wrote:
They have relatively none of the same architecture in systems nor integration. The A350 is not much more than an A330 with a carbon skin. While the B787 is a whole new concept,


The 787 is not really a totally new concept, it was however a big change for Boeing compared to what they had before.

The 787 is an evolution of what Airbus had already put in service with the A380 and 787 in terms of systems.

The novel aspect of the design was to use electric packs, however we have seen they have not considered the same technology on the 747-8 which used the same engine type, the 737MAX or the 777-X.

Composite barrels vs panels seems to be a wash, the panels are easier to transport to assembly, are easier to adjust for a longer fuselage (as they are built from the outside in). Barrels still require the installation of frames and stringers. Both manufacturers send stuffed barrels to final assembly.

The technology Boeing used to build the fuselage barrels was not developed in house, it was adapted from sailing. It also was not the first FAR 25 composite fuselage.

The ADFX avionics network used on the 787 had its commercial debut on the A380, it is also on the A400. Airbus has already put into service composite wings.

Boeing decided to use a new production technique and new supply chain on the 787, it was very different to what they did before. That resulted in a lot of issues.

Airbus used their existing suppliers and existing supply chain and had far fewer issues.

If you think the A350 is just an A330 with a carbon skin, you obviously have not had the detailed maintenance training on type.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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Kindanew
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Re: A350 with the same fuselage width as 787

Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:35 pm

Max Q wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
The A350 was to knock off the B787 in sales. Airbus waited until the B787 was in production with their single wound fuselage before they went with the carbon panels over the aluminum frame . They have relatively none of the same architecture in systems nor integration. The A350 is not much more than an A330 with a carbon skin. While the B787 is a whole new concept, There IS no real comparison to the Two. Those who want the A350 want the A350 and those who want the B787? Want that airplane. I would still like to see both airplanes flown by One Airline head to Head and see what the Data tells us about performance. Especially? Since they have little or no concept similarities



I thought the A350 fuselage used a composite frame with composite skin ?


It does have composite frames and a composite skin.

But when it was first announced it was to have aluminium frames. The change to composite frames was made a few months later.

Some people are relying on out of date information which shows they don’t know what they are talking about.
 
WIederling
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Re: A350 with the same fuselage width as 787

Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:07 pm

Kindanew wrote:
But when it was first announced it was to have aluminium frames. The change to composite frames was made a few months later.

Some people are relying on out of date information which shows they don’t know what they are talking about.


IMU and today it is a mixture of CFRP frames and Al frames. Again IMU the Al frames are instrumental to managing current flow from lightning strikes. so they probably wont vanish completely.
Anyway there is a continuous change process underway.
Door frames have been changed over from lots of Titanium and Al to CFRP.
The CFRP frames now allow "cheap" adaption of material thickness to fit the load case.
( together with those clips joining frame and skin.)

Just like Boeing is trying to get away from the late addition Ti design warts.

in other cases you see a step back like on the A380 wing frames that
went from Al frame + CFRP webbing to Al frame _and_ webbing.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: A350 with the same fuselage width as 787

Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:48 am

strfyr51 wrote:
The A350 was to knock off the B787 in sales. Airbus waited until the B787 was in production with their single wound fuselage before they went with the carbon panels over the aluminum frame . They have relatively none of the same architecture in systems nor integration. The A350 is not much more than an A330 with a carbon skin. While the B787 is a whole new concept, There IS no real comparison to the Two. Those who want the A350 want the A350 and those who want the B787? Want that airplane. I would still like to see both airplanes flown by One Airline head to Head and see what the Data tells us about performance. Especially? Since they have little or no concept similarities


The A350 is not much more than an A330 with a carbon skin.

Not even close. The systems differences between A330 and A350 are significant. The A350 shows its A330 legacy, but systems wise it feels more like a clean sheet design. Much more modern.

Just the hydraulics with two systems and backup actuators instead of three systems like on the A330 is a big change, not to mention the increase in pressure from 3000 to 5000PSI.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
stratclub
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Re: A350 with the same fuselage width as 787

Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:08 am

Does the A350 use AFDX like the A380 and 787 do? If so, that would be a major departure from the A330.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: A350 with the same fuselage width as 787

Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:12 am

stratclub wrote:
Does the A350 use AFDX like the A380 and 787 do? If so, that would be a major departure from the A330.


Yes, it does. The data processing architecture is radically different from the A330.

The electrics are different. The function of the RAT is different (drives electrics instead of hydraulics). There are additions like BTV. The list is long.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
stratclub
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Re: A350 with the same fuselage width as 787

Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:53 pm

AFDX is really an extreme departure over legacy aircraft systems. I am just amazed on how much data about system function is availabe through the maintenance computer and CBIC (Electronic Circuit Breakers) on the 787.

The Boeing 767 through 787 RAT's do provide center system hydraulics and electrical power. Is it possible that the A350 RAT does the same? A RAT on the 747-8? I have no clue why Boeing did that.
 
trex8
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Re: A350 with the same fuselage width as 787

Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:45 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
I would still like to see both airplanes flown by One Airline head to Head and see what the Data tells us about performance. Especially? Since they have little or no concept similarities

Off the top of my head Qatar, Singapore, Vietnam Latam, Ethiopian could tell us that data today probably and soon Air China, Hainan and later Japan. Am I missing any others?
 
stratclub
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Re: A350 with the same fuselage width as 787

Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:09 am

strfyr51 wrote:
There IS no real comparison to the Two. Those who want the A350 want the A350 and those who want the B787? Want that airplane. I would still like to see both airplanes flown by One Airline head to Head and see what the Data tells us about performance. Especially? Since they have little or no concept similarities

What? Is one of them a flying boat or hot air balloon?
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: A350 with the same fuselage width as 787

Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:21 am

stratclub wrote:
AFDX is really an extreme departure over legacy aircraft systems. I am just amazed on how much data about system function is availabe through the maintenance computer and CBIC (Electronic Circuit Breakers) on the 787.

The Boeing 767 through 787 RAT's do provide center system hydraulics and electrical power. Is it possible that the A350 RAT does the same? A RAT on the 747-8? I have no clue why Boeing did that.


The A330 RAT provides hydraulic power ONLY to the green system. If needed, the green hydraulic system drives an emergency generator which generates electrical power.

The A350 RAT provides electric power ONLY by directly driving an emergency generator. Emergency hydraulic power is provided by the self-contained and semi-self-contained control surface actuators (EBHAs and EHAs).


The 747-8 RAT was added because of increased hydraulic system demand compared to older marks. This increased demand would not have been satisfied by the windmilling engines.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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zeke
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Re: A350 with the same fuselage width as 787

Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:17 am

stratclub wrote:
Does the A350 use AFDX like the A380 and 787 do? If so, that would be a major departure from the A330.


The A350 is ADFX like the A380 and A400M, like those aircraft it also retains a legacy backup ARINC bus as used on the A330.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
parapente
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Re: A350 with the same fuselage width as 787

Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:33 am

By the time -third time- Airbus finally got to launch the all new carbon A350 Boeing had already grabbed much of the low hanging fruit that the 787-8 was aiming at ( longer range 767's and Older A330's).Clearly a strategic decision was then made by Airbus to move their gun barrels up a sector and aim directly at the 772er and the 773er which they had failed to attach with the 350 family.Thats what the 350 family is.
However they did make a major mistake thinking that a shrink 350 could still attack the 787-9.In doing so they wasted 2/3 critical years not developing the 330NEO.As a result it has come out very late and perhaps some of the horses have bolted.

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