WPvsMW
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Flight school bias toward carrier contract students

Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:44 pm

I have several friends in Asia who spent their savings on "name brand" flight schools in the LA area and in N. Florida (it's not that much of a riddle) and ran out of money before they could complete their programs because they never got flight time, despite daily promises of flight time. The students getting flight time were contract students from Chinese carriers? Does this bias toward carrier contract students still exist. Two of the friends have saved up and want to try again. I told them to forget the name brands and to try UND or CWU, but they are hung up on "name brand" schools.
 
FlyHossD
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Re: Flight school bias toward carrier contract students

Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:47 pm

There isn't enough information in your post to really answer the question you've posed. In any case, UND is a good school; I flew with several first officers who'd gone to that school and they did (flew) well.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Flight school bias toward carrier contract students

Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:02 pm

To simplify it... do FSI, Riddle, etc., give flight hours to carrier contract students to the detriment of individual (not carrier-sponsored) students? My friends said they were promised 3 flights/week, then 2/flights per week, but only got 1 flight/week, and sometimes none. Meaning, their residence in Florida would be 3x longer... and they ran out of rent money. No tuition refund.
 
FlyHossD
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Re: Flight school bias toward carrier contract students

Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:33 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
To simplify it... do FSI, Riddle, etc., give flight hours to carrier contract students to the detriment of individual (not carrier-sponsored) students? My friends said they were promised 3 flights/week, then 2/flights per week, but only got 1 flight/week, and sometimes none. Meaning, their residence in Florida would be 3x longer... and they ran out of rent money. No tuition refund.


What did their contract say? I'm not asking about verbal promises - I'm asking about the terms stated in the contract. Further, had your friends reached the point (i.e. completed the necessary ground schools) to start flying? Maybe the other students had, but your friends hadn't...?
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
IPFreely
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Re: Flight school bias toward carrier contract students

Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:57 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
Two of the friends have saved up and want to try again.


These two might not be college material. I would suggest they read some Einstein quotes.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Flight school bias toward carrier contract students

Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:01 pm

My experience in the bizjet training arena leads me to wonder if it was a language proficiency problem. We had many cases of foreign students, not only Chinese, but predominantly Asian, taking two to three times the programmed training time. Frequently requiring translators in the classroom. And that was with experienced pilots, but having difficulty working in technical English.

GF
 
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zeke
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Re: Flight school bias toward carrier contract students

Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:23 pm

Maybe they could speak English, however not American.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Flight school bias toward carrier contract students

Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:58 pm

Could have been true if Americans were involved. Careful on making assumptions.

GF
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Flight school bias toward carrier contract students

Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:05 am

They should ask to have an hour or flights / week figure added to the contract.

But, yeah, if that really was the problem, and if all they're after is a CPL/IFR/multi, then they should look at schools that do not cater to airline sponsored cadets. And FL/CA aren't the only 2 options by the way.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Flight school bias toward carrier contract students

Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:27 am

The former students had successfully finished enough ground school, and the hangup was multi- and IFR- flight hours. Their English, even today, is not fluient.. as usual in Asia, their EN literacy is better than their EN fluency. I did not see their contracts. They (one TW, on JP) were wary of confrontation. Each related a similar experience. They started at a flight school in the LA area that went bankrupt, got no refund of tuition paid. One then went to Riddle. The second just said "Florida". Both left before completion. Language proficiency may have been the issue. From their POV, "they didn't get the flight hours they paid tuition for". I told both to apply to UND and CWU. I don't think they could get into Purdue.

Final thought.... passing the TOEFL exam may be why they were not in a university program. Riddle does not require a passing TOEFL score. FSI does.
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: Flight school bias toward carrier contract students

Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:22 am

Can't speak for the other schools, but the contract students flew 5 days a week when I attended UND. It was amazing how quick they pushed the contract students from PPL through CPL. Granted they didn't have to take the normal coursework the rest of us attended, but it was really quite a feat. From what I understand though, like someone else mentioned, language barrier was the biggest roadblock for most of the students..
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Flight school bias toward carrier contract students

Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:03 am

jetblueguy22 wrote:
Can't speak for the other schools, but the contract students flew 5 days a week when I attended UND. It was amazing how quick they pushed the contract students from PPL through CPL. Granted they didn't have to take the normal coursework the rest of us attended, but it was really quite a feat. From what I understand though, like someone else mentioned, language barrier was the biggest roadblock for most of the students..


It's not really surprising that airline cadets would get all the attention and priority. These are lucrative contracts for the flight school, and they are bound by time constraints as the airlines wants these butts back and warming a right seat ASAP. I can see why schools would push private students to the side to accommodate them as their survival pretty much depend on these contracts.

If I was a private student and had to do it all over again, I'd avoid these schools. But then it's a different scene nowadays since my prehistoric (pre-9/11 :old: ) days as a CPL student...
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
747Whale
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Re: Flight school bias toward carrier contract students

Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:14 am

Most of the asian operators don't use places like ERAU; that's a four year program and an expensive one. There are numerous others throughout the country that amount to certificate mills for Chinese and other students to ramrod their basic certification before heading back to their home country.

I taught a lot of them. Compared to western students who wanted to learn and paid for their own training, the asian students were abysmal.

I very much doubt ERAU is denying paying students flight time. More likely there were issues with those students, which is most often the case.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Flight school bias toward carrier contract students

Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:00 pm

9/11 is now “prehistoric? How about pre-Watergate?

GF
 
747Whale
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Re: Flight school bias toward carrier contract students

Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:03 pm

I think 09/11 is prehistoric to millennials, who seem to believe that the world was formed from galactic magma circa 2000 AD, and that the world revolves around them, rather than the sun.
 
Dalmd88
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Re: Flight school bias toward carrier contract students

Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:31 pm

So way back when I went to Riddle, You paid for flight training on a per hour basis, not tuition which was for the traditional college classes. Each flight class, say Multi rating, would have a deposit fee due before you could start the flight class sequence of flights. You would burn through the deposit money until you completed the requirements for the sequence or ran out. If you ran out you would have to put up more of a deposit to finish. Flight classes typically did not fit in the traditional semester system. When you completed a sequence you could start the next if you had the deposit and any required ground school classes.

Beside the money hold up you could have to wait for an instructor for the next class to have space. On top of that weather was always a issue in the early classes. Even on a sunny day high winds could ground students. Another factor is working the flying around other classes. You really had to be ready to fly when ever you could. If the student no showed or canceled to many times they got dropped.

I think for the contract stuff they are currently doing there are dedicated instructors to the academy students. So there shouldn't be much competition for flight time. Usually when someone complains they are not getting time it is really the students own doing.
 
stratclub
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Re: Flight school bias toward carrier contract students

Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:51 pm

747Whale wrote:
I think 09/11 is prehistoric to millennials, who seem to believe that the world was formed from galactic magma circa 2000 AD, and that the world revolves around them, rather than the sun.

apparently, you didn't get the memo.

Image
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Flight school bias toward carrier contract students

Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:58 am

stratclub, you are only showing part of the millenial's head.

Back to "no tuition refund"... my Asian friends would have been on the deposit system. Based Dalmd88's account, I am now certain their money was deposits, not tuition... all they wanted was a CPL, not a B.S... their complaint was money paid, no flight hours. I think the real scenario was they weren't making fast enough progress... maybe distractions of a young buck in Flordia ... and attributed their washout to carrier contract students. Faculty shortage may have been a factor, but not the main factor.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Flight school bias toward carrier contract students

Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:13 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
9/11 is now “prehistoric? How about pre-Watergate?

GF


Watergate?
Oh, boy... I have bad news for you, GF.

:wink2:
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
stratclub
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Re: Flight school bias toward carrier contract students

Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:43 am

WPvsMW wrote:
stratclub, you are only showing part of the millenial's head.

Back to "no tuition refund"... my Asian friends would have been on the deposit system. Based Dalmd88's account, I am now certain their money was deposits, not tuition... all they wanted was a CPL, not a B.S... their complaint was money paid, no flight hours. I think the real scenario was they weren't making fast enough progress... maybe distractions of a young buck in Flordia ... and attributed their washout to carrier contract students. Faculty shortage may have been a factor, but not the main factor.

Probably off topic some and nothing more than a response to someones reference to Millennial's. IDRK if the subjects of this thread have a problem that involves the amazing mindset of the Millennial's here in the U.S. My grand daughter told me about how the Flat Earth Theory is something some Millennial's think is a real thing. She said she didn't really believe it but thought it was plausible.

Back to the no tuition refund. It's really hard to know the actual realties of the situation without being there and knowing the individuals involved. Having extreme difficulties with a non native language alone could have "sunk their boat".
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Flight school bias toward carrier contract students

Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:57 pm

I flew with one who seriously asked me, after pointing out the D-Day beaches below, “now, why were the Germans in France?” That’s the state of education today.

GF
 
747Whale
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Re: Flight school bias toward carrier contract students

Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:39 pm

Why did the Germans cross the Rhine? To get to the other side. They were in France for the snails, of course. Omaha and Utah beaches because they took a wrong turn, looking for the Riviera. Nice chaps. Nice schnitzel.

Flat earth theory: https://theflatearthsociety.org/home/

The joke isn't that people think the earth is flat; it's that people don't get that it's a joke. In order to perpetuate the satire, strict belief in a flat earth must be maintained. The fun are the many who fly into a tizzy attempting to dispel the theory.
 
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Moose135
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Re: Flight school bias toward carrier contract students

Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:09 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I flew with one who seriously asked me, after pointing out the D-Day beaches below, “now, why were the Germans in France?” That’s the state of education today.

I graduated high school over 30 years ago, and most history classes barely made it to the 20th Century, WWII was covered in about one or two class sessions, if that. Because of my interest in aviation, I did a lot of reading on my own to learn about it, so I wouldn't necessarily blame "the state of education today" for their lack of knowledge.
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Flight school bias toward carrier contract students

Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:54 pm

Moose135, re: WWII, check out the spinner paint thread (Luftwaffe were the first users of "rotation diagrams" on spinners). Tangents almost as wild as in this thread, all aviation related.
 
747Whale
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Re: Flight school bias toward carrier contract students

Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:54 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
(Luftwaffe were the first users of "rotation diagrams" on spinners).


They weren't, actually.
 
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akiss20
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Re: Flight school bias toward carrier contract students

Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:05 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I flew with one who seriously asked me, after pointing out the D-Day beaches below, “now, why were the Germans in France?” That’s the state of education today.

GF


Wait I thought all of us millennials were idiots because we were doing useless college degrees like history or French literature? Remind me which branch of uselessness and stupidity I’m in again?
Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are
 
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akiss20
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Re: Flight school bias toward carrier contract students

Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:05 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I flew with one who seriously asked me, after pointing out the D-Day beaches below, “now, why were the Germans in France?” That’s the state of education today.

GF


Wait I thought all of us millennials were idiots because we were doing useless college degrees like history or French literature? Remind me which branch of uselessness and stupidity I’m in again?
Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are
 
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akiss20
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Re: Flight school bias toward carrier contract students

Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:05 pm

Stupid server errors and duplicate posts. It would be nice if we could drag the forum software into the 21st century tbh.
Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are
 
747Whale
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Re: Flight school bias toward carrier contract students

Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:10 pm

akiss20 wrote:

Wait I thought all of us millennials were idiots because we were doing useless college degrees like history or French literature? Remind me which branch of uselessness and stupidity I’m in again?


Why don't you remind us?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGvrmltfMrA
 
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akiss20
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Re: Flight school bias toward carrier contract students

Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:42 pm

747Whale wrote:
akiss20 wrote:

Wait I thought all of us millennials were idiots because we were doing useless college degrees like history or French literature? Remind me which branch of uselessness and stupidity I’m in again?


Why don't you remind us?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGvrmltfMrA


Cute. Whatever it takes to feed your false sense of generational superiority.
Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are

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