For general aviation aircraft, one updates the nav database by downloading a custom file tied to your specific serial number, putting it on a USB stick, and inserting that in the cockpit.
Cost might be about $100, and 30 minutes work.

How does this work for Boeing/Airbus?

Is the update tied to a specific serial number?
Is it a USB in the cockpit?
What does it cost?

Depends on the system. There used to be cartridges, and many FMS systems used data loaders from floppy discs, long after the public stopped using floppy discs. Loading and updating of databases has evolved, but what's required depends on the system being updated. Costs are typically borne on a customer by customer basis; the cost is not the same for all. Typically costs are by subscription.

We’re slowly moving to a wireless update on our A300. Bring the update device to the aircraft, wirelessly upload to the server, then the aircraft does the rest.

All our other aircraft get the update device plugged into a connector on the flight deck, or directly into the FMC.

On a Boeing, there is an issue date and an expiration date for the nav data base. If your data base is expired, you have to download and install the latest version. Not really rocket science because in general, all Boeing aircraft use the same nav data base. The most likely download source is a memory stick with data downloaded from a secure server over the Internet.

Boeing has a wireless implementation called Twilla that has been slow to catch on with the customers.

stratclub wrote:

On a Boeing, there is an issue date and an expiration date for the nav data base. If your data base is expired, you have to download and install the latest version. Not really rocket science because in general, all Boeing aircraft use the same nav data base. The most likely download source is a memory stick with data downloaded from a secure server over the Internet.

Is it he same DB for all Boeing? It’s not tied to a specific aircraft? Makes me wonder how Boeing does the billing, if you can reuse the file.

You assume that the FMC doesn't communicate with Boeing, "Hello Boeing, I am snXXX FMC and I have this version of the NDB. Are my checksums correct?"
https://www.boeing.com/commercial/aerom ... _04_2.html
https://www.boeing.com/commercial/aerom ... 02txt.html

kitplane01 wrote:

stratclub wrote:

On a Boeing, there is an issue date and an expiration date for the nav data base. If your data base is expired, you have to download and install the latest version. Not really rocket science because in general, all Boeing aircraft use the same nav data base. The most likely download source is a memory stick with data downloaded from a secure server over the Internet.

Is it he same DB for all Boeing? It’s not tied to a specific aircraft? Makes me wonder how Boeing does the billing, if you can reuse the file.

The nav data base is snapshot of current nav details for the entire planet. Why would it be different for a 737 or a 787? The planet does not change depending on what aircraft you are in. Most likely for in service aircraft the Nav data base comes from the carriers operations department and may not even be generated by Boeing.

Who really cares who pays or it?

stratclub wrote:

kitplane01 wrote:

stratclub wrote:

On a Boeing, there is an issue date and an expiration date for the nav data base. If your data base is expired, you have to download and install the latest version. Not really rocket science because in general, all Boeing aircraft use the same nav data base. The most likely download source is a memory stick with data downloaded from a secure server over the Internet.

Is it he same DB for all Boeing? It’s not tied to a specific aircraft? Makes me wonder how Boeing does the billing, if you can reuse the file.

The nav data base is snapshot of current nav details for the entire planet. Why would it be different for a 737 or a 787? The planet does not change depending on what aircraft you are in. Most likely for in service aircraft the Nav data base comes from the carriers operations department and may not even be generated by Boeing.

Who really cares who pays or it?

Neither Boeing, nor Airbus provide NavDB. Generally an airline will get their NavDB from a certified supplier (Honeywell, NavBlue, Jepp). Even two of the same aircraft types in a fleet can have different NavDB suppliers if they have different FMS’s onboard (Honeywell vs Thales). Airline will have a contract with relevant NavDB supplier who will issue updates ever 28 days or custom data in between updates (off cycle update) if and when required.

FMS generally store 2 databases, with a changeover date. Part of the cockpit preflight and setup is to determine that the correct database is selected. In some aircraft, especially older ones, the FMS wouldn't hold a global database, so regional data is entered, and if the aircraft moves to another region, the new database must be downloaded and installed.

The data is tailored to the operator. There's often a cutoff point for airports with a minimum runway length; airports less than that, or which aren't available to the aircraft, aren't included in the database. Likewise, on my electronic flight bag, many airports aren't in my jepp database either, as we won't be flying there and those airports aren't an option for me.

T54A wrote:

Neither Boeing, nor Airbus provide NavDB. Generally an airline will get their NavDB from a certified supplier (Honeywell, NavBlue, Jepp). Even two of the same aircraft types in a fleet can have different NavDB suppliers if they have different FMS’s onboard (Honeywell vs Thales). Airline will have a contract with relevant NavDB supplier who will issue updates ever 28 days or custom data in between updates (off cycle update) if and when required.

Correct. My point was that the FMC and NDB (Boeing's acronyms) are monitored remotely as part of aircraft health.

747Whale wrote:

FMS generally store 2 databases, with a changeover date. Part of the cockpit preflight and setup is to determine that the correct database is selected. In some aircraft, especially older ones, the FMS wouldn't hold a global database, so regional data is entered, and if the aircraft moves to another region, the new database must be downloaded and installed.

The data is tailored to the operator. There's often a cutoff point for airports with a minimum runway length; airports less than that, or which aren't available to the aircraft, aren't included in the database. Likewise, on my electronic flight bag, many airports aren't in my jepp database either, as we won't be flying there and those airports aren't an option for me.

Whale747 is spot on. NDB have somewhat limited capacity so there is no use in filling them up with data that will never be used. Rather they are tailored to the specific operator. Qantas has no use for KMIA or KORD so why use up that space within the NDB. For an operator that covers the world, like Atlas, they can select the airports they are most likely to use and as the NDB fills up they can start be eliminating certain STARS/SIDS and things like VOR and ADF approaches they are unlikely to use, then when push comes to shove, they can build the approaches as needed.

Collins for business aircraft have an option for wireless updates. You confirm the connection, the NDB to loaded and wait for the load. MX does a check before each departure, but I suppose it can be done at an FBO Wi-Fi connection sitting on the ramp.

IIRC, our annual bill for five world wide subscriotions for FMS, aircraft charting and crew subscriptions was a bit north of $250,000.

GF

No, with wireless NAV data base upgrades still would not happen automatically. From new aircraft deliveries, IIRC, most operators do no use the wireless capability which IIRC is called Twilla on the 787. All it would mean is that the tech would not have to bring a thumb drive out to the aircraft during preflight. IDK about the most recent aircraft deliveries since I'm retired.

acmx wrote:

What is the benefit of the wireless update if you have to take a device out to the plane and upload the data to the plane vs using a pdl and installing the database by physically connecting? Is it quicker that way? I’m just curious why they would invest money in that system if you still have to send an amt out to the plane to do the update. Is the end goal to have it happen automatically at the gate?

Once the transfer to the onboard server is complete, the AMT can move to another aircraft and comlete the same task. He needs to return to each aircraft he does and verify that the load is complete and the data correct, but the upload device (not a PDL anymore), isn't tied to the aircraft during the load. It takes only a couple of minutes to transfer from the upload device to the aircraft.

My airline transitioned to a dataloader that can accept USB instead of 3.5" floppy disks. IIRC, the database was installed across 6 floppy disks. On the 737NG the loader is on the wall immediately to the right when you enter the flight desk. With the USB key, the data is put onto various USB keys that are issued out from Stores. The AME installs the NDB and on the change-over date, the pilots verify they've got the newest cycle selected. The NDB is tied to the AIRAC (sp?) cycle which is every 56 days. The database is specific to us (it has our airline code in the name, which is the norm) and includes airports all over the world (most of which we'd never be flying to).

Before the B747-8 FMC was certified, the B744 had an FMC that was from 1989, with a tiny (by todays standards) memory. British Airways had a Nav dept that spent a lot of time cutting the nav database to size to fit the memory. They made sure that only airports and routes that were required were on it, and the approved alternates. They were looking fwd to when the aircraft were going to be modified with the B747-8 FMC, but this was delayed for ages. It nearly came to the point where they were going to split the database into East and West. This would have meant that the techs at LHR would have to load the correct database for the route. This is not as easy as it seems. But it never came to that, and the fleet was updated with the B747-8 FMC with its huge memory and the problems faded away.

To give some perspective, the Collins Fusion cockpit FMS and the file server IFIS (Global and A220) can hold worldwide FMS DB, the EGPWS obstacle DB, all the charts for the world, the high and low airways system and all documents—AMM, FCOM, AFM, W&B, FPCCM and miscellaneous documents.

Will Boeing or Airbus advise the pilots that they have a superseded, or corrupted, NDB loaded? Technically, B and A could do this, just wondering if they do.

I've had the wrong database or corrupted databases loaded. Why this happens just before a flight, however, is beyond me.

stratclub wrote:

kitplane01 wrote:

stratclub wrote:

On a Boeing, there is an issue date and an expiration date for the nav data base. If your data base is expired, you have to download and install the latest version. Not really rocket science because in general, all Boeing aircraft use the same nav data base. The most likely download source is a memory stick with data downloaded from a secure server over the Internet.

Is it he same DB for all Boeing? It’s not tied to a specific aircraft? Makes me wonder how Boeing does the billing, if you can reuse the file.

The nav data base is snapshot of current nav details for the entire planet. Why would it be different for a 737 or a 787? The planet does not change depending on what aircraft you are in. Most likely for in service aircraft the Nav data base comes from the carriers operations department and may not even be generated by Boeing.

Who really cares who pays or it?

I only know Garmin for small planes. But they also ship the world database, digitally signed for only your aircraft. That way you cannot share the file and Garmin can get paid.

Well sure. but how is the data base different for your aircraft? Is it compiled for a different planet than this one?

[code][/code]

WPvsMW wrote:

Will Boeing or Airbus advise the pilots that they have a superseded, or corrupted, NDB loaded? Technically, B and A could do this, just wondering if they do.

Why does Boeing or Airbus care? The Nav Database is customized to, or by, the customer to their specifications. The Nav Databases also have an expiration date that is clearly shown on the FMC. We run a monthly cycle, yet due to FMC capacity issues, will change databases more frequently.

Any customization is because of specific airlines routes. Still, if someone like Jepson releases a NDB, if you cold look at the NDB without any customization they would all be the same. The changes in the planet are not governed by the operator they are governed by what is.

fr8mech wrote:

[code][/code]

WPvsMW wrote:

Will Boeing or Airbus advise the pilots that they have a superseded, or corrupted, NDB loaded? Technically, B and A could do this, just wondering if they do.

Why does Boeing or Airbus care? The Nav Database is customized to, or by, the customer to their specifications. The Nav Databases also have an expiration date that is clearly shown on the FMC. We run a monthly cycle, yet due to FMC capacity issues, will change databases more frequently.

Boeing and Airbus get paid for providing AHM (airplane health management, aka remote monitoring, https://www.boeing.com/commercial/aerom ... _07_1.html). B and A don't care about what the operator does with the info, B and A just provide it.... mostly engine performance related.

WPvsMW wrote:

Boeing and Airbus get paid for providing AHM (airplane health management, aka remote monitoring, https://www.boeing.com/commercial/aerom ... _07_1.html). B and A don't care about what the operator does with the info, B and A just provide it.... mostly engine performance related.

I'm well aware of AHM's capabilities. I use it everyday and it does a lot more than engine data. Not sure what AHM has to do with FMC databases. I guess you're wondering whether an operator would pay to have AHM report that a database has expired.

Why?

The expiration dates on the database are right on the FMC CDU for anyone to see. Updating the database is a regularly scheduled task.

Every now and again, the flight crew may come across the wrong database installed, or a corrupted database, but rarely...at least around here...an expired one. Even so, if the database has expired, it can be deferred via the MEL.

Out of our 250 or so aircraft, none are currently carrying an expired database MEL.

I mentioned engine data because of its economic importance to an operator. IIRC, engine performance data was the primary driver in implementing AHM, and Real-Time Fault Management, and Service Monitoring, were piggybacked on Performance Monitoring. That said... I'm not a Boeing software guy.

kitplane01 wrote:

stratclub wrote:

kitplane01 wrote:

Is it he same DB for all Boeing? It’s not tied to a specific aircraft? Makes me wonder how Boeing does the billing, if you can reuse the file.

The nav data base is snapshot of current nav details for the entire planet. Why would it be different for a 737 or a 787? The planet does not change depending on what aircraft you are in. Most likely for in service aircraft the Nav data base comes from the carriers operations department and may not even be generated by Boeing.

Who really cares who pays or it?

I only know Garmin for small planes. But they also ship the world database, digitally signed for only your aircraft. That way you cannot share the file and Garmin can get paid.

Operators can request specifics on their database. It may exclude all airports with runways less than 7,000', for example.

Light airplane data, especially data such as TFR's that updates on Foreflight or various Garmin systems with XM input, for example, receive data and transmit data at different times. A few years ago using both while negotiating a lot of fires in the Idaho wilderness areas, I noticed that one device might show a TFR adjacent to my position, while another didn't. The data didn't agree.

The cutoff times for that data to be reported to the different providers varies, and the data won't always be the same across different devices or systems. That's actually more data in the cockpit than many large airplanes get, and the database belongs with the FMS or FMC. It's similar to the data you'll get in the light airplane, without a lot of the extras. On the other hand, I've talked to a lot of private pilots who think their xm weather information in the cockpit is as good as inflight radar, and it's not, especially given time delays in uploads of the weather data. Off topic, a bit, but there are some differences in the way you receive and use the data, and what you get.

747Whale wrote:

kitplane01 wrote:

stratclub wrote:

The nav data base is snapshot of current nav details for the entire planet. Why would it be different for a 737 or a 787? The planet does not change depending on what aircraft you are in. Most likely for in service aircraft the Nav data base comes from the carriers operations department and may not even be generated by Boeing.

Who really cares who pays or it?

I only know Garmin for small planes. But they also ship the world database, digitally signed for only your aircraft. That way you cannot share the file and Garmin can get paid.

Operators can request specifics on their database. It may exclude all airports with runways less than 7,000', for example.

Light airplane data, especially data such as TFR's that updates on Foreflight or various Garmin systems with XM input, for example, receive data and transmit data at different times. A few years ago using both while negotiating a lot of fires in the Idaho wilderness areas, I noticed that one device might show a TFR adjacent to my position, while another didn't. The data didn't agree.

The cutoff times for that data to be reported to the different providers varies, and the data won't always be the same across different devices or systems. That's actually more data in the cockpit than many large airplanes get, and the database belongs with the FMS or FMC. It's similar to the data you'll get in the light airplane, without a lot of the extras. On the other hand, I've talked to a lot of private pilots who think their xm weather information in the cockpit is as good as inflight radar, and it's not, especially given time delays in uploads of the weather data. Off topic, a bit, but there are some differences in the way you receive and use the data, and what you get.

Wow the part about XM weather is scary. Accidents have happened because of GA pilots using it like weather radar in the past. I assumed the word about its limitations was pretty much out and common knowledge now but I guess not.

I still hear from a lot of pilots who think that XM and other such information is real-time and who attempt to navigate weather, including convective weather, using that information.

acmx wrote:

Makes sense. I was just thinking you would have to be there for the start and then go back and verify the load anyways. But if you go from gate to gate or pass the device around, a lot of planes could get done on a single hub turn. Do you have to do something from inside the plane to initiate the transfer or can you do it from outside the plane? Like can you just pull up under the nose of the plane and upload the data without entering the plane?

An engineer that was on the validation team said they were able to get the device to connect to the aircraft's wifi from the nose,but I haven't heard of anyone trying it in practice.

Hi: As 747 said, Quotte [The data is tailored to the operator. ] Unquotte.
Back in 1992?, our company decided to move Delegation to Sydney,for Olímpics Games and found that there was no route available in NAV for that, so it had to order special NAV data.
Normally new navdata is charged only to one NAV computer and them, copied and transferred to the other computer. (CROSSTALK).
Problem with internet load come to wi-fi available and good.
Database cover only 28 days period.
If capt and F/o databases are not equal, or navdata is expired, both aircraft warning system and navdata display will displayed a warning. If not possible to change it, MEL will allow you to Flight this way for a limited time (not sure, but I believe is for 10 days, Cat “C”)

Rgds

Sydney olimpics, 1996.
Sorry, rgd#

stratclub wrote:

kitplane01 wrote:

stratclub wrote:

On a Boeing, there is an issue date and an expiration date for the nav data base. If your data base is expired, you have to download and install the latest version. Not really rocket science because in general, all Boeing aircraft use the same nav data base. The most likely download source is a memory stick with data downloaded from a secure server over the Internet.

Is it he same DB for all Boeing? It’s not tied to a specific aircraft? Makes me wonder how Boeing does the billing, if you can reuse the file.

The nav data base is snapshot of current nav details for the entire planet. Why would it be different for a 737 or a 787? The planet does not change depending on what aircraft you are in. Most likely for in service aircraft the Nav data base comes from the carriers operations department and may not even be generated by Boeing.

Who really cares who pays or it?

the Memory for the B787 and the B737 or the A320 might be different in Capacity. So the Versions could be different. At United before I retired all the Nav Data bases were on our Internal Web site and could be downloaded by the Techs and Installed on Floppy Drives. They can probably do it with CD Roms by now just like I update My personal Computer

Hi, Back In time, a command to perform a Navdata Update was given from Supervisor, then You Check any PC with company intranet, were You will find latest air NAV revision. And download it to a blank Floppy Disk, received from Store Room and very controlled, by P/N and S/N
I don’t know is memory’s capacity differ by planes type, but we used same versions for767 and 777.

Rgds

Hi: This System, at least here, is very controlled for a fear of any terrorist incursion.
For that reason, nobody speak seriously about download it from open internet services and
Floppy Disks are very strong controlled.
Rgds

Collins sells a box that update any Collins onboard database by Wi-Fi. We have it in the hangar, tech/pilot verifies the connection, the DB to download and it loads. The days of internet to laptop to thumb drive to plane file server are going away. The system does a confirmation on the load being correct and uncorrupted and a selection is made to make it active. Must be done on the ground, but I’ve had pilots at great expense update the JeppView FD app in-flight-$2500 per load.

GF

As an aside, the update frequency is every 56 days and effective always at 0901Z on the first day of the cycle and on every system. Most boxes (FMS) have the capability of holding two updates - one that is active and one that is either coming into effect at a later date, or, if that new one hasn't been loaded, the former expired update. Good topic!

For end users, the navdata is on a 28-day AIRAC cycle; major changes are involved, they are sent out 56 days ahead of implementation.

https://www.icao.int/safety/information-management/Pages/AIRACAdherence.aspx


GF

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

...I’ve had pilots at great expense update the JeppView FD app in-flight-$2500 per load.
GF

GF, would the data link in that in-flight case would be on the operator's Inmarsat channel, or directly from Jepp, ARINC/Collins, etc.?

Swift Broad Band on Inmarsat, but there’s others like GoGo. Not sure of all options currently available but Inmarsat, Satcom Direct, ARINC, and Via Sat Ka band are all popular. Pricing is eye watering—$7 a meg! It’s rapidly evolving, already very different from when I retired 18 months ago.

GF

Yikes! wrote:

As an aside, the update frequency is every 56 days and effective always at 0901Z on the first day of the cycle and on every system. Most boxes (FMS) have the capability of holding two updates - one that is active and one that is either coming into effect at a later date, or, if that new one hasn't been loaded, the former expired update. Good topic!

My bad - 28 days is correct. The things one forgets....

You would think this tech was fairly mature by now. My company has changed from a Honeywell/NavTech combo for our NavDB’s to NavBlue for the complete fleet, and its been a nightmare. Errors in coding, missing procedures and long waiting times to have problems fixed. Honeywell was the best vender in my opinion.