WPvsMW
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How interoperable are various SBAS and GBAS?

Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:08 am

Satellite Based and Ground Based Augmentation Systems
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNSS_augmentation

WAAS in US, EGNOS in Europe, and MSAS in Japan are operational... other regions (GAGAN in India, QZSS in Japan (second system) are being implemented... yet none are interoperable. Different satellites, different transponder frequencies, different correction protocols.
https://gssc.esa.int/navipedia/index.ph ... perability

Lots of talk
https://www.aai.aero/en/content/gagan-i ... other-sbas
and lots of interoperability working group meetings,
https://geoawesomeness.com/sbas-interop ... -standard/ 2013
https://www.gps.gov/multimedia/presenta ... erbach.pdf 2018

but as of today, WAAS, EGNOS, and MSAS are not interoperable... correct?
No operator equips its aircraft with multiple SBAS systems... correct?


Similarly, various regions' GBAS are not (yet) interoperable. LAAS in the US (Boeing has equipped over 3,500 aircraft with GBAS, with a 5,000 a/c backlog).
The beauty of LAAS is that a single installation replaces all ILS systems at a given airport. 12 ILS at ORD... replaced by 1 LAAS.
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/he ... gnss/laas/
https://www.eurocontrol.int/news/aiming ... conditions
https://gssc.esa.int/navipedia/index.ph ... stem_(GBAS)
https://gssc.esa.int/navipedia/index.php/GBAS_Systems

As of today, all deployed LAAS systems (only Honeywell has a certified system) are in the US (EWR and IAH, only with a subfleet of UA B737 and B787) . Boeing has private LAAS at Moses Lake WA and at CHS. The Honeywell LAAS delivers performance at Cat I minimums.

How often is LAAS actually used at EWR and IAH?

No GBAS equipped aircraft or airports in Europe. Thales has tested a system at TLS, but none are certified.

One reason for slow adoption of GBAS ... it will probably be superseded by more accurate SBAS.
http://www.nitel.it/wp-content/uploads/ ... litare.pdf

If I were CEO of UA, I would have put the second LAAS at SFO instead of IAH. Savings in avoiding diversions would pay for it.
 
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zeke
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Re: How interoperable are various SBAS and GBAS?

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:05 am

Not sure where you are getting you information from. Bremen (EDDW), Malaga (LEMG), Frankfurt (EDDF), Zurich (LSZH) all have CAT 1 GLS.

A380, 787, 747-8, and A350 are capable of GLS out of the box, every other FBW Airbus is also capable. Reason being is they all have the same Rockwell Collins MMR. Lots of aircraft in Europe can fly GLS approaches.

Sydney and Melbourne also have GLS CAT1 now, Brisbane, Perth, Tokyo Haneda, Shangaï, Tianjin, Singapore, Hong Kong, Chennai, Krakow are being rolled out. The HKG charts have been published, we are also flying the approaches now with the 747-8.

EWR I this the GLS approach was out of service by NOTAM.
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WPvsMW
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Re: How interoperable are various SBAS and GBAS?

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:56 am

Wow... thanks zeke. Four airports in the EU with Cat 1 GBAS Landing Systems! Lots of searching, but I couldn't find that data. Is that from the Nav DB that you use?
Does the Rockwell Collins MMR depend upon EU specific GLS software?
Was the Thales GLS product ever certified?

I think the LAAS being inop at EWR was termporary.
www .faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/7930.2S_Notices_to_Airmen_(NOTAM).pdf page A-15
(delete the space after www to make the link work)

GLS implementation is much farther along outside the US... that surprises me, since the first deployments were in the States. Budget cuts at the FAA?

How often do you fly GLS approaches? Do you have a preference between ILS and GLS?
 
IAHFLYR
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Re: How interoperable are various SBAS and GBAS?

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:49 pm

Here is some information regarding the IAH approaches and a few numbers up until 2015.

http://laas.tc.faa.gov/documents/GPAR/2 ... 015_Q1.pdf

IAH has approval to fly the GLS approaches as well during independent simultaneous ops dual/triple which probably enhances the numbers otherwise during a normal push they'd have to be dependent parallel approaches which would pretty much render them useless.

Before I retired from IAH ATC about six years ago I was working with the Houston Airport System, FAA and CO/UA on the procedures and location of the antenna installation. During the program I was fortunate enough to be given a chance to fly the CO/UA B738 sim, one of which had GLS capability. I mean ATC (I volunteered to take one for the team :) )had to see what these flew like let alone work up the procedures of how to get the planes from the vector world onto the final approach course outside of the 20-23 NM from the airport since during dual/triple ops we'd have aircraft on final outside of that distance, so there was a small challenge of how to get it to transfer from the LOC and GS right into the GLS procedure without having any pilot input. It was really slick, think I flew maybe three or four approaches and true to their advertisement looked pretty darn close if not exactly like an ILS.

Not sure how often UA is flying them now, but if i run into any of my former colleagues and remember to ask I will try to resurrect this thread.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: How interoperable are various SBAS and GBAS?

Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:02 pm

IAHFLYR, thanks for the info about IAH.
Do you know why UA/CO picked EWR and IAH as the initial sites? (Rather than ORD or SFO)
Any idea why GLS deployment has been stagnant in the US, while WAAS is very active?
Irony... the two certified SBAS/GBAS systems are Rockwell-Collins and Honeywell.
https://www.rockwellcollins.com/Product ... ensor.aspx
https://aerospace.honeywell.com/en/prod ... nsor-units
 
IAHFLYR
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Re: How interoperable are various SBAS and GBAS?

Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:14 pm

Well IIRC, the IAH antenna was originally slated for Memphis (MEM) and FedEx, but for some reason the FAA Program Office decided to pull it from there and bring it to IAH. One of the reasons was that CO at the time the program started here was getting new B738's/739's with GLS capability and since they had a long standing relationship working with the local ATC facility. We worked on new procedures with them to develop Special FMS Arrival/Departures (yes that long ago with their B733's, B735's and B752 initially) then on to Special RNAV then RNP approaches which we on the ATC side could utilize during the dual/triple ops with a waiver from FAA HQ to the 7110.65 So with that relationship in place (many other ATC places and primary users have done/still do similar things) and HQ knowing of it well, EWR had their system almost operational and the Program Office was hoping to develop a HUB to HUB GBAS route IAH-EWR, EWR-IAH and I believe that's how it got to IAH. At the time the UA merger was just getting started so don't think the ORD or SFO spots were even thought of it going there. Again, some of my facts might be a bit rusty so don't shoot the messenger!!

Why it's been stagnant, well some in the FAA don't much like change for one and getting controllers comfortable with new stuff takes time in many cases, but once it is known to be a proven product like the RNP RF legs turning finals off a downwind as the IAH RNAV (RNP) RWY 26R for example does it gains momentum. Not really sure why GLS hasn't other than possibly not all operators have taken new planes with it installed as well as having a controller give yet another type approach clearance (already have ILS, RNAV etc.). Our facility along with a few other places (ATL comes to mind) wanted to change the .65 to allow for us to simply issue a generic approach clearance, ie., "Cleared Runway 27 approach" and let the operator fly whatever approach they wanted as long as all the approaches to that runway were mirror of each other and whatever procedure the pilot flew it did not matter as long as the lateral and vertical containment was exactly the same.....fly it with a wedgeeboard and a string for all I care as long as they all fly just alike. Requiring a controller to think of what approach phraseology was required has some of them in an uncomfortable situation rather than just the old turning and clearing part of the job.

Anyway, just some of my thoughts.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: How interoperable are various SBAS and GBAS?

Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:34 am

Thanks! Very interesting, esp. the replacement of MEM with IAH, and UA being outside the pre-merger planning.
 
IAHFLYR
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Re: How interoperable are various SBAS and GBAS?

Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:51 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
Thanks! Very interesting, esp. the replacement of MEM with IAH, and UA being outside the pre-merger planning.


Keep in mind UA did not have GPS on many of their domestic aircraft. I don't know the numbers, but I remember getting many of their B752's into IAH after the merger and almost all where DME/DME/IRU. Also, the Airbus fleet may have had GPS on them, but crews not trained to fly RNAV approaches or at least that is what we were told by the Flight Tech guys/gals. Meanwhile once the B733's exited the fleet every CO airplane was dual GPS equipped except for the remaining B735's which had a single GPS with all crews trained for RNAV procedures.

This is probably one reason UA wasn't in the GBAS business back then. But now that I think of it, before Sept. 11, we did get some UA interest in getting approval to fly the IAH Special RNAV approaches with an A320 and I believe they flew one or two revenue flights using Check Airmen to demonstrate the procedures, but then Sept. 11 occurred and we didn't hear from them again on that as the cost to equip was probably not worth it at the time.

WOW, you're sure bringing back old memories...hope I still remember it all correctly....if not I'm sure some CO and UA folk who were around back then will fix anything I screwed up!! :)
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: How interoperable are various SBAS and GBAS?

Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:16 pm

Yes, there are plenty of knowledgeable folks here in tech/ops, and I hope for more input on the thread. The exchange with zeke about GLS outside the States shows SBAS and GBAS are the future, but NAS is lagging in GLS.

I would think operators (esp. cargo operators using delay prone airports) with FBW Airbus types or B787/B748 would push airports to install the ground component.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: How interoperable are various SBAS and GBAS?

Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:18 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
Yes, there are plenty of knowledgeable folks here in tech/ops, and I hope for more input on the thread. The exchange with zeke about GLS outside the States shows SBAS and GBAS are the future, but NAS is lagging in GLS.

I would think operators (esp. cargo operators using delay prone airports) with FBW Airbus types or B787/B748 would push airports to install the ground component.


In the US, just about every air carrier airport has one, often multiple, ILS approaches installed. The money is sunk in US ILSs. Overseas, especially outside the OECD countries, they’re going to skip the expensive ILS and go directlly to GLS.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: How interoperable are various SBAS and GBAS?

Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:50 am

IIRC, ORD has 12 different ILSs. That is a huge investment, that requires a lot of maintenance. The "implement GLS" breakeven point for airports with multiple ILSs must be much lower than for an airport with a single ILS.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: How interoperable are various SBAS and GBAS?

Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:29 pm

But the investment is sunk, so why remove them when the majority of the US fleet isn’t GLS equipped? To abandon the ILS, the FAA would have to mandate GLS in probably 20,000 civil planes plus the military.

GF
 
WPvsMW
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Re: How interoperable are various SBAS and GBAS?

Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:20 pm

Returning to the focus of the topic title... does the Rockwell-Collins or Honeywell gear interoperate with GLS and SBAS worldwide? Does it need a software update, like Nav DBs, that contains the destination airports?

Example: SBAS/GBAS equipped, US operator, a/c on TATL or TPAC route approaches FRA or SYD. Can the Captain elect GLS and, presto, the MMR auto-tunes, etc.?
 
N47
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Re: How interoperable are various SBAS and GBAS?

Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:32 pm

The key difference with SBAS and GBAS is that the raw gps corrections for SBAS are transmitted through the gps antenna (uhf L-band). WAAS has surveyed reference stations scattered through the US that measure raw gps data and send corrections via gps antenna also. WAAS equiped aircraft can do LPV approaches to as low as 200’ minimums (same as CAT I). As far as i know WAAS is currently used primarily by the GA community since they do not need a subscription to operate it and not many airlines have WAAS eqipped aircraft who may require subscrition for WAAS (not sure about this though). With GBAS on the other hand, the gps corrections are made locally using several reference antennas placed at the airport so the gps is much more accurate. The corrections for GBAS are then send from the ground at the airport via vhf antenna to the aircraft. Currently GBAS are only certified to do CAT I approaches but the main selling point when it first came out is that it would also be certified to do CAT II and III approaches (the main advantage over WAAS). However it was realized during testing that GBAS did not really have that big of an advantage over ILS since reference antennas were also prome to RF multipath and other issues. Also difficult to convince airlines to equip aircraft with additinal costly equipment.

A particular interesting thing that happened with GBAS installation at EWR is that the reference antennas are right next to I-95 so truckers with GPS jammers driving on i-95 would mess up reference antenna and cause wrong corrections to be made hence wrong CDI and sometimes sending the signal off-air. Of course these jammers are illegal but they are easily obtained online.


All GBAS installations in the US are non-fed meaning they are not owned and serviced by the FAA although FAA still does the flight inspection on them. There are talks of SFO and JFK getting GBAS in the coming years.
 
N47
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Re: How interoperable are various SBAS and GBAS?

Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:39 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
Returning to the focus of the topic title... does the Rockwell-Collins or Honeywell gear interoperate with GLS and SBAS worldwide? Does it need a software update, like Nav DBs, that contains the destination airports?

Example: SBAS/GBAS equipped, US operator, a/c on TATL or TPAC route approaches FRA or SYD. Can the Captain elect GLS and, presto, the MMR auto-tunes, etc.?


Although i do not know with 100% certainty. My guess is that you would need to have the DBs updated since the reference antennas are surveyed points and what you are sending through the VHF is not a raw signal like ILS but rather a correction. I will ask a GBAS expert and get back once the shutdown ends.
 
N47
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Re: How interoperable are various SBAS and GBAS?

Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:58 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
IIRC, ORD has 12 different ILSs. That is a huge investment, that requires a lot of maintenance. The "implement GLS" breakeven point for airports with multiple ILSs must be much lower than for an airport with a single ILS.


Yes operating and maintaining 12 ILS does become costly, however, because a VOR/LOC reciever is one of the most basic instrument on any aircraft you can be sure that whatever aircraft is flying into ORD will be able to use that navaid. On the otherhand if the GLS fails or something goes wrong with one of the reference antennas all your approaches go out, now throw in adverse weather and diverting all that traffic from ORD would be a nightmare.

Surely GPS nav is the way of the future however ground based navaids will always be around at the very least for resiliency.

The FAA works very very closely with stakeholders (particularly the airlines) if the will of the airlines was to equipt their fleets with GBAS capabilities then there would have been a whole lot more GLS approaches in the US.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: How interoperable are various SBAS and GBAS?

Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:52 pm

The Collins Fusion system does operate on EGNOS and FAA WAAS for LPV approaches. We didn’t have GLS yet in the Global.


GF
 
WPvsMW
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Re: How interoperable are various SBAS and GBAS?

Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:37 am

Avidyne's high end Navigators are also LPV certified.
Since 2008, there have been more published LPV approaches than published Cat I ILS approaches.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Localizer ... l_guidance
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_landing_system

So... I think ILS installations have peaked, and airports are opting for LPV... which reinforces the faster GA adoption. GA airports can afford LPV, but not ILS.

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