PlaneMad134
Topic Author
Posts: 92
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:59 am

Thrust reverse pushbacks still legal?

Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:44 pm

I was in lanzarote about a week ago and a Binter Canarias ATR76 was thrust reversing out of a parking spot, I thought this was against health and safety regulations?
 
WayexTDI
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Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Thrust reverse pushbacks still legal?

Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:52 pm

Unless it's prohibited by the airframe manufacturer, it would have to be up to each Aviation Authority or even airport to prohibit it.

I could understand the safety issue (debris being pushed forward, towards ground employees); but this has to be limited in reach and width.
 
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litz
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Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:01 am

Re: Thrust reverse pushbacks still legal?

Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:17 pm

Also depends a lot on the type of aircraft ...

a high wing prop, an under-wing jet, a tail mounted jet ... all are going to have different considerations.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Thrust reverse pushbacks still legal?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:13 am

I do it all the time on the ATR, all over Europe. Did one this morning. Much faster and more convenient than having to push with a tow bar.

It's typically only limited by individual airports for noise restrictions.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Thrust reverse pushbacks still legal?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:44 pm

VSMUT wrote:
I do it all the time on the ATR, all over Europe. Did one this morning. Much faster and more convenient than having to push with a tow bar.

It's typically only limited by individual airports for noise restrictions.


The 747, 767, 777, and 787 are prohibited from backing the airplane by AFM Limitation (Airplane Flight Manual). That is an official FAA certified document that the airlines must adhere to. So it’s prohibited by regulation on those models.

It is not prohibited on the 737 and 757.
 
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SuseJ772
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Re: Thrust reverse pushbacks still legal?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:30 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
I do it all the time on the ATR, all over Europe. Did one this morning. Much faster and more convenient than having to push with a tow bar.

It's typically only limited by individual airports for noise restrictions.


The 747, 767, 777, and 787 are prohibited from backing the airplane by AFM Limitation (Airplane Flight Manual). That is an official FAA certified document that the airlines must adhere to. So it’s prohibited by regulation on those models.

It is not prohibited on the 737 and 757.

Interesting it is prohibited on the 767 but not the 757
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
stratclub
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Re: Thrust reverse pushbacks still legal?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:39 pm

Essentially correct. The FAA will approve anything as long as it is feasible, safe, proven by engineering and validated by testing. The driver on any aircraft flight manual procedure is the manufacturers engineering. Boeing did not write TR push-back into the flight manual for what ever reason on twin isles so there is nothing in regards to TR push-back on twin isles for the FAA to approve.

So no, twin isle push-back is not prohibited by regulation, it is just not something Boeing asked for approval on. On airworthiness validation a lot of people have the tail (FAA) wagging the dog (manufacturer).
Last edited by stratclub on Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Thrust reverse pushbacks still legal?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:41 pm

stratclub wrote:
Essentially correct. The FAA will approve anything as long as it is feasible, safe, proven and validated. The driver on any aircraft procedure is the manufacturers engineering. Boeing did not write TR push-back into the flight manual for what ever reason on twin isles so there is nothing in regards to TR push-back on twin isles for the FAA to approve.

So no, twin isle push-back is not prohibited by regulation, it is just not something Boeing asked for approval on.


It’s specifically prohibited by AFM Limitation.
 
stratclub
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Re: Thrust reverse pushbacks still legal?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:52 pm

Yes, but the AFM is written by your engineering department and approved by the FAA. Apparently, after you posted, I did do an edit to better express my thoughts. If Boeing wanted to write twin isle TR push-back into the AFM and went through the validation process, the FAA would grant approval.
 
Yikes!
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Re: Thrust reverse pushbacks still legal?

Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:21 am

Have done it with the 757. Tried once with the 767 in an extreme situation - couldn't move an inch. Never tried it again.
 
stratclub
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Re: Thrust reverse pushbacks still legal?

Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:46 pm

So I guess we can file the possibility of a 767 doing a a powered reverse movement as it ain't going to happen then. Sounds good to me. If it was my airline, I would be inclined to not back any aircraft out of the gate with T/R's.
 
stratosphere
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Re: Thrust reverse pushbacks still legal?

Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:22 am

I saw Eastern do it with an L1011 once that was interesting. They did it with the 757 all the time at EWR when I worked there. I used to powerback DC-9, 727s when I was a mechanic for NWA we never allowed powerback on anything larger than a 727.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Thrust reverse pushbacks still legal?

Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:26 am

Watched a pair of A300's, or maybe a pair of B767's, or one each...the memory gets fuzzy after 30 years...come out of the AA hangar alleys on JFK come nose-to-nose. Watched with rapt, shiny new A&P, attention as my partner and I waited to see what they would do. One popped them into reverse and the aircraft petulantly refused to move. Then the other one deployed them with the same result. A tug finally came out and grabbed one.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
expat92
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:03 am

Re: Thrust reverse pushbacks still legal?

Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:54 am

fr8mech wrote:
Watched a pair of A300's, or maybe a pair of B767's, or one each...the memory gets fuzzy after 30 years...come out of the AA hangar alleys on JFK come nose-to-nose. Watched with rapt, shiny new A&P, attention as my partner and I waited to see what they would do. One popped them into reverse and the aircraft petulantly refused to move. Then the other one deployed them with the same result. A tug finally came out and grabbed one.


I would have paid good money to see that. I always wondered if two aircraft could end up nose to nose but assumed that even in hanger ops airport ground control would have to give clearance to move thus avoiding this. Obviously I was wrong or someone messed up or times/rules have evolved?

expat
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Thrust reverse pushbacks still legal?

Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:46 pm

expat92 wrote:
I would have paid good money to see that. I always wondered if two aircraft could end up nose to nose but assumed that even in hanger ops airport ground control would have to give clearance to move thus avoiding this. Obviously I was wrong or someone messed up or times/rules have evolved?

expat


Who knows what transpired. With 30 years hindsight, we should’ve tuned to ground and listen in, but we didn’t.

I can say, with a high degree of confidence, that they were in a positive control area, so they would have had contact with Ground. There are parallel taxiways there, so that may have been where there was some confusion.

I do recall a Port Authority vehicle showing up to either observe or escort the tug and crew.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
PlaneMad134
Topic Author
Posts: 92
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:59 am

Re: Thrust reverse pushbacks still legal?

Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:48 pm

Thanks for the replies, seems interesting to watch, As i had never seen it before until then.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Thrust reverse pushbacks still legal?

Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:48 pm

expat92 wrote:
fr8mech wrote:
Watched a pair of A300's, or maybe a pair of B767's, or one each...the memory gets fuzzy after 30 years...come out of the AA hangar alleys on JFK come nose-to-nose. Watched with rapt, shiny new A&P, attention as my partner and I waited to see what they would do. One popped them into reverse and the aircraft petulantly refused to move. Then the other one deployed them with the same result. A tug finally came out and grabbed one.


I would have paid good money to see that. I always wondered if two aircraft could end up nose to nose but assumed that even in hanger ops airport ground control would have to give clearance to move thus avoiding this. Obviously I was wrong or someone messed up or times/rules have evolved?

expat


I wound up nose-to-nose, our EA B727 to EA B-727 on the inner at BOS back in the day. Not sure how it happened, but with ground control clearing us we backed up 500’ or so to transition to the outer.

GF.

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