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More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:29 am
by ro1960
I didn't see this posted, feel free to forward or delete.

On Feb. 13, during push-back, a MK A359 (3B-NBQ) got its right winglet clipped after hitting the horizontal stabilizer of a parked AF B777-300ER (F-GSQH) at CDG. Investigation underway.

Is it me or these types of incidents are more and more frequent? What is the cause? More pressure on ground staff who cut short procedures? Lack of training? Or plain bad luck?

Image

https://www.aviation24.be/airports/paris-cdg/air-france-boeing-777-clips-wings-air-mauritius-airbus-a350/

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:31 am
by sonicruiser
Yes, planes are getting bigger, and thus more wing clipping incidents.

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:40 am
by ro1960
sonicruiser wrote:
Yes, planes are getting bigger, and thus more wing clipping incidents.


Yes, but it's not as if they are growing after they are built. Ramps, taxiways, runways are sized accordingly to allow for safe maneuvering. If collision occurs, it means someone failed to comply with procedures, no?

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:12 am
by YYZatcboy
ro1960 wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:
Yes, planes are getting bigger, and thus more wing clipping incidents.


Yes, but it's not as if they are growing after they are built. Ramps, taxiways, runways are sized accordingly to allow for safe maneuvering. If collision occurs, it means someone failed to comply with procedures, no?


I'm sure that if you want to distill it to a single cause, human error would probably be it. That being said many times ground crews are not always set up for success. For example, aircraft wings are getting bigger, and manuvering areas tighter. Aircraft are growing at a pace that airports who have land issues can't always keep up with. So you see widebody gates that can operate as two narrowbody gates when not used for a WB. So now you have three or more lead in lines that you have to keep straight at each gate, many with weird angles to give clearance for narrowbodies parked next to each other, or narrow bodies parked next to widebodies. Then you add in airlines being cheap and not requiring wing walkers, or only one wing walker, coupled with ground service providers trying to get by with low wages and minimal training to keep their costs down, and you suddenly have a recipe for these kinds of issues.

Take a look at the multiple options at YYC's new international terminal https://www.google.com/maps/place/Utqia ... 56.7886111

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:34 am
by PatrickZ80
ro1960 wrote:
Yes, but it's not as if they are growing after they are built.


In a certain way, they are. Of course not the aircraft themselves, but their replacements.

The 767 and A300 had a relatively narrow wing span for their body size, but it was considered normal in those days. Therefor, airports were constructed in a way that those aircraft would fit. But then those aircraft got replaced, the A330 and 787 have a much higher wingspan. But they had to fit into those same airports that were designed for the 767 and A300, resulting in them having far less space to maneuver. What was easy before is now very tight.

Even if in theory it should fit, theory and practice are not always the same. When on a 767 or A300 you were a little bit off-center, it didn't matter. When on an A330 or 787 you're off-center, you risk hitting something that you would have missed on an aircraft with less wingspan.

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:00 am
by ro1960
PatrickZ80 wrote:
ro1960 wrote:
Yes, but it's not as if they are growing after they are built.


In a certain way, they are. Of course not the aircraft themselves, but their replacements.

The 767 and A300 had a relatively narrow wing span for their body size, but it was considered normal in those days. Therefor, airports were constructed in a way that those aircraft would fit. But then those aircraft got replaced, the A330 and 787 have a much higher wingspan. But they had to fit into those same airports that were designed for the 767 and A300, resulting in them having far less space to maneuver. What was easy before is now very tight.

Even if in theory it should fit, theory and practice are not always the same. When on a 767 or A300 you were a little bit off-center, it didn't matter. When on an A330 or 787 you're off-center, you risk hitting something that you would have missed on an aircraft with less wingspan.


But in the case here and most modern terminals, ramps were designed for B777 or A340 types with wingspans of 63-65m (Code E) just like the A359. Or is it bad airport design?

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:13 am
by tomcat
Aircraft movements are increasing each year. This alone is already a factor for increased occurrences of wing clippings. Now what about the frequency of wing clippings per movement? If this frequency has increased over the time, then there are obviously other factors. Increasing (average) wingspans could then be a factor. There could be a clipping frequency threshold beyond which adding proximity sensors in the aircraft tips (just like in cars) might be looked at.

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:51 am
by WIederling
ro1960 wrote:
Is it me or these types of incidents are more and more frequent? What is the cause?


More planes.
more wingspan.
newer planes more often are hugging the upper bound of the box they are designed to fit in.

and last but probably a major cause : winglets that occupy significant vertical space.

As long as (plain) wingtips sit on different heights a slight horizontal overlap will not immediately cause damage.
add upright portions to the wing tip and a collision is unavoidable.

wing tip devices reduce leeway for errors.

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:53 pm
by unimproved
tomcat wrote:
Aircraft movements are increasing each year. This alone is already a factor for increased occurrences of wing clippings. Now what about the frequency of wing clippings per movement? If this frequency has increased over the time, then there are obviously other factors. Increasing (average) wingspans could then be a factor. There could be a clipping frequency threshold beyond which adding proximity sensors in the aircraft tips (just like in cars) might be looked at.


Even if the frequency increased, there might not be another factor. More movements also means more aircraft moving at the same time, increasing the chance to hit eachother.

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:39 pm
by GalaxyFlyer
More social media, more wing clips.

GF

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:06 pm
by Q
Image

Why don't they get a new sensor for the pilot to alert sound to apply brake quickly to stop?

The sensor should be warning sound within 75 feet ahead of an object to make a sound warning in the cockpit so the pilot can apply a brake to stop plane avoid collision wing with any object or aircraft's wing or tail etc.

Would that be a good idea? :yes: Save a million of dollars to repair and waste of time plane not in service for a few weeks to repair. :banghead:

Q

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:46 pm
by 747Whale
There is no need to modify aircraft with sensors, the equivalent of car whiskers or curb feelers, if the aircraft is operated properly. Before we ever leave the gate to taxi, we've already reviewed the routing so that we know whether the distances permit our aircraft, and we've included it in our taxi briefing. If there are restrictions, we've considered them, and know where we'll have to turn or what taxiways to avoid. It's published.

We have references throughout the cockpit so that we can look through the forward window and side windows and know that this particular corner of the window represents the ground track of the left main landing gear, for example, and that corner represents the wing track. I can quite literally look at those references and know exactly how far my winglets will be and where they're tracking even though I can't see them fro the cockpit.

When maneuvering close to other aircraft, on a crowded ramp, for example, centerlines are followed, and taxiing is done slowly, and when proximity is close, the aircraft is tugged and wing walkers are used.

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:05 pm
by kalvado
747Whale wrote:
There is no need to modify aircraft with sensors, the equivalent of car whiskers or curb feelers, if the aircraft is operated properly.

There are so many things we don't need if everything works properly. Seatbelts, liability insurance, escape slides, life vests, hard hats, firefighters, search and rescue - just to name a few.
But many of those things are still mandated, as Murphy law is more reliable than any given part of the aircraft.

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:11 pm
by 747Whale
And yet curb feelers and wing whiskers are yet to be mandated on the airplane. Go figure.

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:34 am
by AirKevin
Q wrote:
Why don't they get a new sensor for the pilot to alert sound to apply brake quickly to stop?

The sensor should be warning sound within 75 feet ahead of an object to make a sound warning in the cockpit so the pilot can apply a brake to stop plane avoid collision wing with any object or aircraft's wing or tail etc.

And if there's something behind you, as in the case of a pushback? I don't know that the pilots can hit the brakes without risking damage to the plane or the tug during pushback.

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:36 am
by kalvado
747Whale wrote:
And yet curb feelers and wing whiskers are yet to be mandated on the airplane. Go figure.

remember the days catalytic converters, seatbelts and airbags were not required for cars?
I don't, but those days were not that long ago.

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:45 am
by kalvado
AirKevin wrote:
Q wrote:
Why don't they get a new sensor for the pilot to alert sound to apply brake quickly to stop?

The sensor should be warning sound within 75 feet ahead of an object to make a sound warning in the cockpit so the pilot can apply a brake to stop plane avoid collision wing with any object or aircraft's wing or tail etc.

And if there's something behind you, as in the case of a pushback? I don't know that the pilots can hit the brakes without risking damage to the plane or the tug during pushback.

How difficult is it to relay a warning to pushback crew? I don't see that as mission impossible.
The only question is if these wingtip accidents are common enough to warrant sensor certification and extra weight.
Specifically for 777x, where inspection - and possibly damage - of wingfold mechanism would make such accidents more expensive?

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:48 am
by stratclub
I suspect some complete nonsense here. The reason aircraft sustain "ramp rash" is human error. No amount of additional equipment or sensors will make any difference.

In 30 to 40 years, my one incident of ramp rash was completely my fault because I was not paying attention as I shroud have been. If you are moving aircraft it is mandatory to observe what is going on with no exceptions. Aircraft movement not seen to be safe? you stop. It's just that simple.

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:27 am
by stratclub
747Whale wrote:
And yet curb feelers and wing whiskers are yet to be mandated on the airplane. Go figure.

To funny MR. Whale. It would be great to have curb feelers on a 747 but the reality is most flight crews would ignore there presence claiming that the warning claxton was doing nothing more than confusing them.

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:59 am
by AirKevin
kalvado wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
Q wrote:
Why don't they get a new sensor for the pilot to alert sound to apply brake quickly to stop?

The sensor should be warning sound within 75 feet ahead of an object to make a sound warning in the cockpit so the pilot can apply a brake to stop plane avoid collision wing with any object or aircraft's wing or tail etc.

And if there's something behind you, as in the case of a pushback? I don't know that the pilots can hit the brakes without risking damage to the plane or the tug during pushback.

How difficult is it to relay a warning to pushback crew? I don't see that as mission impossible.
The only question is if these wingtip accidents are common enough to warrant sensor certification and extra weight.
Specifically for 777x, where inspection - and possibly damage - of wingfold mechanism would make such accidents more expensive?

A sensor that warns you of something ahead of you would do nothing for something behind you. Even then, I am guessing in the time it took to relay the warning to the pushback crew, you would have already hit whatever you were going to hit.

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:30 am
by expat92
The real reason for increased incidents is that human beings are imperfect machines trying to work in an environment that in the name of increased efficiency and profit does not take this into account. The system gives all the information in briefings and calculates clearances to the metre but makes no allowance for a disturbed nights sleep, a headache or a bad back, etc. Yes, You are not supposed to allow those things to affect your performance, but humans ARE imperfect. In the past, there was sufficient leeway for human imperfection not to matter. Now there is none. In a perfect system, this would be taken into account but then again imperfect humans created the system.
(As I get more ancient, I find that I too have increasingly less tolerance; less tolerance for companies blaming people for being human, less tolerance for projects that blame people for cost overruns and delays when the real fault was submitting a bid that was too tight on time and money.)

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:54 pm
by kalvado
AirKevin wrote:
kalvado wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
And if there's something behind you, as in the case of a pushback? I don't know that the pilots can hit the brakes without risking damage to the plane or the tug during pushback.

How difficult is it to relay a warning to pushback crew? I don't see that as mission impossible.
The only question is if these wingtip accidents are common enough to warrant sensor certification and extra weight.
Specifically for 777x, where inspection - and possibly damage - of wingfold mechanism would make such accidents more expensive?

A sensor that warns you of something ahead of you would do nothing for something behind you. Even then, I am guessing in the time it took to relay the warning to the pushback crew, you would have already hit whatever you were going to hit.

Ok, so we need a total of 8 sensors: 2 forward looking and 2 rear looking on wingtip, 3 rear looking on horizontal and vertical stabilizer tips, and 1 on radome because pilots trnd to be too reliant on automation. Sensitivity cones and distanced may be discussed.
Warning devices: sledgehammers on overhead panel in cockpit for forward movement; red indicator and buzzer next to taxiing light. Red light is illuminated if unsafe to taxi: something in sensor range, parking brake set, steering bypass not enabled, maybe some other conditions. Buzzer activated when proximity sensor activated and inhibited by parking brakes to avoid warnings when not taxiing. Buzzer also fed into the ground intercom headphones.

Somehow we are taking about a fairly complex system, and a fairly simple logic is nothing new for another warning subsystem.

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:50 pm
by ro1960
YYZatcboy wrote:
Then you add in airlines being cheap and not requiring wing walkers, or only one wing walker


I've never seen wing walkers in Europe. I'm puzzled as to their ability to stop an incident. What do they do if they see a wingtip dangerously nearing another?

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:20 pm
by 747Whale
I use wing walkers regularly in Europe. When operating near the gate environment, it's fairly standard. When out on a taxiway, there's no need.

A wing walker signals the marshaller, who is watching the wing walkers; the marshaller stops the aircraft. If the aircraft is being tugged/towed, then the wing walker notifies the tug driver who stops the aircraft.

European airlines tend to taxi a bit fast; I've had them complain when we've been taxiing slower. Slowing down just a little reduces tire and brake temperatures on long taxi routings, such as AMS, and it means a lot less trouble in the event of a brake failure, and less chance of taxiing into another aircraft. This. is especially true when approaching the terminal or a congested part of the airport. Go slow. Maintain taxiway centerlines. Know before taxiing what areas an or cannot be used by an aircraft of that wingspan and size. Each aircraft has cockpit reference points that allow the crew to know where the wingtips are, and manuals and charts which clearly spell out turn radius for each aircraft component, from gear to wingtips to the nose, tail, and horizontal stab, so that there are no mysteries.

Striking another aircraft on the ground is 100% preventable.

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:37 am
by kalvado
747Whale wrote:
I use wing walkers regularly in Europe. When operating near the gate environment, it's fairly standard. When out on a taxiway, there's no need.

A wing walker signals the marshaller, who is watching the wing walkers; the marshaller stops the aircraft. If the aircraft is being tugged/towed, then the wing walker notifies the tug driver who stops the aircraft.

European airlines tend to taxi a bit fast; I've had them complain when we've been taxiing slower. Slowing down just a little reduces tire and brake temperatures on long taxi routings, such as AMS, and it means a lot less trouble in the event of a brake failure, and less chance of taxiing into another aircraft. This. is especially true when approaching the terminal or a congested part of the airport. Go slow. Maintain taxiway centerlines. Know before taxiing what areas an or cannot be used by an aircraft of that wingspan and size. Each aircraft has cockpit reference points that allow the crew to know where the wingtips are, and manuals and charts which clearly spell out turn radius for each aircraft component, from gear to wingtips to the nose, tail, and horizontal stab, so that there are no mysteries.

Striking another aircraft on the ground is 100% preventable.

After reading all your posts, I keep wondering if you ever got an industrial grade safety training. Not the one for high school dropouts, where they explain that sticking fingers into power outlets is bad; but a serious one. Hierarchy of control and prevention measures and all that.

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:48 am
by 747Whale
Yes, and more incident management training and experience than I could possibly ever want. I am still fairly certain, however, that sticking fingers into electrical outlets may have negative consequence. That is to say, I probably wouldn't do it again.

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:53 am
by kalvado
747Whale wrote:
Yes, and more incident management training and experience than I could possibly ever want. I am still fairly certain, however, that sticking fingers into electrical outlets may have negative consequence. That is to say, I probably wouldn't do it again.

So the answer is essentially no. If they train on accident management instead of accident prevention, that is a dangerous sign. Either you're ARFF, or safety culture is no existent. What is you airline, if you don't mind? Sounds like SQ or AI style. Just want to make sure not to fly with you guys.

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:17 am
by WIederling
747Whale wrote:
Striking another aircraft on the ground is 100% preventable.


That shows the place where to apply the lever but not current reality.
( but what to use as fulcrum :-)

I see an issue with "wellmeaning" savety improvemnts.
There is a trend to increase legal micromanagement into non essential domains
flooding the "workspace" with often competing rules.
This often takes away focus from the base essential things that have a hard physics push through.

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:31 pm
by 747Whale
kalvado wrote:
So the answer is essentially no. If they train on accident management instead of accident prevention, that is a dangerous sign. Either you're ARFF, or safety culture is no existent. What is you airline, if you don't mind? Sounds like SQ or AI style. Just want to make sure not to fly with you guys.


Wrong, the answer is yes, but I clearly you're doing nothing more than spoiling for a fight, and staring down a nose so far in the sky that it's snowing on your brain.

Could you be more arrogant? Unlikely.

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:33 pm
by kalvado
747Whale wrote:
kalvado wrote:
So the answer is essentially no. If they train on accident management instead of accident prevention, that is a dangerous sign. Either you're ARFF, or safety culture is no existent. What is you airline, if you don't mind? Sounds like SQ or AI style. Just want to make sure not to fly with you guys.


Wrong, the answer is yes, but I clearly you're doing nothing more than spoiling for a fight, and staring down a nose so far in the sky that it's snowing on your brain.

Could you be more arrogant? Unlikely.

A very common hierarchy of control measures - here it is as applied to personal injury, but concept applies to all hazards - is here:
Image
source: https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/hierarchy/default.html or https://www.osha.gov/shpguidelines/haza ... ntion.html <- note the organizations maintaining these sites please.
If you never seen this chart, you never passed a good safety training regardless of what you say.
The idea is that eliminating hazard (designing plane which lands properly even if somewhat mishandled) is always preferable to having a plane which flips too easily; and using automatics to prevent plane flipping is always preferable to having pilots pass extra training sessions. Cost and feasibility may result in passing on better control options, though.
For the situation in question, eliminating the hazard - e.g. having airport with much lower density to have more wiggle room - is preferable safety wise, but financially unfeasible, so we pass on that.
Having engineering controls, however, especially when designed into the next generation, has to be considered. SOme of those are actually present - e.g. taxiing cameras. We are talking about other possibilities for next gen.
Those may prove infeasible as well, most likely for cost reasons - but they MUST be considered.
Your insistence on degrading directly to lowest practical degree of control- as PPE (slides) or reinforced/brakaway structures are only that feasible here- is pretty much against most basic safety concepts. And such approach - seemingly adopted by the training department as you say - is a very troubling situation for very safety-oriented industry.

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:11 am
by AirKevin
kalvado wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
kalvado wrote:
How difficult is it to relay a warning to pushback crew? I don't see that as mission impossible.
The only question is if these wingtip accidents are common enough to warrant sensor certification and extra weight.
Specifically for 777x, where inspection - and possibly damage - of wingfold mechanism would make such accidents more expensive?

A sensor that warns you of something ahead of you would do nothing for something behind you. Even then, I am guessing in the time it took to relay the warning to the pushback crew, you would have already hit whatever you were going to hit.

Ok, so we need a total of 8 sensors: 2 forward looking and 2 rear looking on wingtip, 3 rear looking on horizontal and vertical stabilizer tips, and 1 on radome because pilots trnd to be too reliant on automation. Sensitivity cones and distanced may be discussed.
Warning devices: sledgehammers on overhead panel in cockpit for forward movement; red indicator and buzzer next to taxiing light. Red light is illuminated if unsafe to taxi: something in sensor range, parking brake set, steering bypass not enabled, maybe some other conditions. Buzzer activated when proximity sensor activated and inhibited by parking brakes to avoid warnings when not taxiing. Buzzer also fed into the ground intercom headphones.

Somehow we are taking about a fairly complex system, and a fairly simple logic is nothing new for another warning subsystem.

All of which would need to be certified. How much would all of it cost, and would the airlines be willing to pay for it.

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:20 am
by kalvado
AirKevin wrote:
All of which would need to be certified. How much would all of it cost, and would the airlines be willing to pay for it.

I am totally with you, that is why I said such things must be considered, not must be implemented.
In fact, my earlier comment:
kalvado wrote:

The only question is if these wingtip accidents are common enough to warrant sensor certification and extra weight.
Specifically for 777x, where inspection - and possibly damage - of wingfold mechanism would make such accidents more expensive?

My bet sensors may become feasible for 777x - due to wingtip mechanism; and may be eventually implemented on 787 - but still prohibitive as a retrofit for 737.

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:34 am
by kalvado
And an interesting piece of history:
https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-release ... xiing.aspx
Probably a knee jerk reaction to a specific accident, but still...

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:41 am
by 747Whale
kalvado wrote:
Your insistence on degrading directly to lowest practical degree of control- as PPE (slides) or reinforced/brakaway structures are only that feasible here- is pretty much against most basic safety concepts. And such approach - seemingly adopted by the training department as you say - is a very troubling situation for very safety-oriented industry.


Actually, I never said any of those things, nor advocated for them.

You've got a serious reading comprehension problem.

I said nothing about adoption by the training department. Not a word.

It's always great to be the recipient of your arrogant judgmental attitude, though. Well done.

Apparently some of us simply slipped through the cracks...over the past few decades of our flying careers. Before you undertake educating us, though, you might want to revisit your reading skills.

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:55 pm
by kalvado
747Whale wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Your insistence on degrading directly to lowest practical degree of control- as PPE (slides) or reinforced/brakaway structures are only that feasible here- is pretty much against most basic safety concepts. And such approach - seemingly adopted by the training department as you say - is a very troubling situation for very safety-oriented industry.


Actually, I never said any of those things, nor advocated for them.

You've got a serious reading comprehension problem.

I said nothing about adoption by the training department. Not a word.

It's always great to be the recipient of your arrogant judgmental attitude, though. Well done.

Apparently some of us simply slipped through the cracks...over the past few decades of our flying careers. Before you undertake educating us, though, you might want to revisit your reading skills.

Yet this is exactly what you said.
747Whale wrote:
There is no need to modify aircraft with sensors, the equivalent of car whiskers or curb feelers, if the aircraft is operated properly. Before we ever leave the gate to taxi, we've already reviewed the routing so that we know whether the distances permit our aircraft, and we've included it in our taxi briefing. If there are restrictions, we've considered them, and know where we'll have to turn or what taxiways to avoid. It's published.


You attribute mistakes to human factor (which is correct) - and advocating keeping existing designs and procedures - and basically saying that crew needs to operate with more attention ("modify the way people work") to avoid accidents.
This is precisely about "administrative controls" on a chart - and it is known to be only that effective as humans are prone to mistakes. ANd that is exactly what we are discussing - how to overcome that without selecting a different breed of humans (although you're apparently from that new breed which never makes mistakes)

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:24 pm
by Gr8Circle
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
More social media, more wing clips.

GF


Exactly! While the number of incidents may have risen overall, its the social media aspect that brings every single big or small incident onto your desktop.....

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:25 pm
by 747Whale
You're not a pilot, are you?

Have you ever actually taxied an aircraft?

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:28 pm
by stratclub
Ah, yes. the Safety Expert. I have had to deal with those types before. Crippled by their "training". The upside down chart is hilarious, although what the chart represents is in fact in theory true It in noway tempers the work environment and peoples behaviors with common sense and situational awareness. More or less, the chart assumes everyone is just plain old stupid, so why promote common sense.

You can't eliminate every hazard. Would you take away butchers knives and give them Knives made out of foam? No? Why not? That would be the most effective (Elimination) control per the chart.

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:03 pm
by kalvado
747Whale wrote:
You're not a pilot, are you?

Have you ever actually taxied an aircraft?

Aha, I expected that for a long time.
No, but I have driven a car - which is conceptually similar task; and I did have accidents which are similar to clipping, and I saw much more serious accidents of that type. And I know car manufacturers do include bells and whistles - like cameras and proximity sensors - to avoid such accidents. Those became available lately, as technology progressed - and some are even mandated components these days.

Now you, Mr. Type Rated Pilot... Did you ever design a system where safety is sufficient consideration? Or maybe you're a chief pilot for your airline responsible for setting up procedures? Or anything else where you job is to question existing safety procedures or setup new ones? Or all you did is adhere to procedure someone else written for you?

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:14 pm
by kalvado
stratclub wrote:
Ah, yes. the Safety Expert. I have had to deal with those types before. Crippled by their "training". The upside down chart is hilarious, although what the chart represents is in fact in theory true It in noway tempers the work environment and peoples behaviors with common sense and situational awareness. More or less, the chart assumes everyone is just plain old stupid, so why promote common sense.

You can't eliminate every hazard. Would you take away butchers knives and give them Knives made out of foam? No? Why not? That would be the most effective (Elimination) control per the chart.

You don't take away knives - but you do give steel mesh gloves to knife users, you get food processors to do the cutting - and do whatever it takes to reduce possibility of injury.
Accidents we discuss do happen, and we all know that. It didn't happen to you personally.... Not yet? Beware, such statements tend to bite back; and I had to learn that the hard way. You may praise situation awareness, airmanship and common sense all you want. But you end up with someone flying a last leg of 12 hour day after minimum mandated rest period and no time for lunch; minimum wage ramper pushing the plane; snow, rain, night operations obstructing visibility and what not.
We know cohort performance - which is, again, shows that shit happens.
As it is correctly pointed out, those accident may still be relatively minor and infrequent, so additional cost is not worth it. That is completely different story, it is a separate interesting and useful discussion....
I am aware only of one 747 written off due to the judgement of such skilled drivers...

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:31 pm
by AirKevin
kalvado wrote:
And I know car manufacturers do include bells and whistles - like cameras and proximity sensors - to avoid such accidents. Those became available lately, as technology progressed - and some are even mandated components these days.

And how good do they actually work. I had a loaner car that had all this stuff, so just for giggles, I tested the lane departure warning, obviously making sure nobody else was around me. I discovered that it only worked about half the time. This was in 2014.

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:56 pm
by kalvado
AirKevin wrote:
kalvado wrote:
And I know car manufacturers do include bells and whistles - like cameras and proximity sensors - to avoid such accidents. Those became available lately, as technology progressed - and some are even mandated components these days.

And how good do they actually work. I had a loaner car that had all this stuff, so just for giggles, I tested the lane departure warning, obviously making sure nobody else was around me. I discovered that it only worked about half the time. This was in 2014.

Probably meaning it was like 2 system generations ago? And we are talking about slightly different stuff. Lane monitoring may be more tricky than finding objects in blind spots. And again, if we are preventing only half the accidents - we cut those costs by a factor of 2...
If anything, I would be concerned about servicing something on wingtips - periodic lenses cleaning would probably be required. That can easily affect costs. In fact, coming back to cars, my rear view camera is getting dirty to the point of being useless all the time - due to tons of road salt they dump. Not sure if deicing would come into play for the plane. How taxiing cameras handle all that?
But again - IMHO these are problems to consider for price/return evaluation, not the reasons to drop idea upfront.
On a separate but similar notice: EASA doing some work on same type of device, lidar, for the secondary air data system. So idea of putting optical ports on the airframe and keeping them reasonably performing is not beyond reality.

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:45 am
by AirKevin
kalvado wrote:
Lane monitoring may be more tricky than finding objects in blind spots.

Don't even get me started with the blind spot monitoring system. The way it's designed now, I personally feel that it's one of the worst things that ever existed. I have noticed that as soon as that light in the mirror goes out, the driver of the vehicle thinks it's safe to get over. It might be safe if the vehicle that was being passed was a car. I am driving a tractor-trailer. That distance that the blind-spot monitoring system tells you is safe is not, in fact, safe when you're dealing with a tractor-trailer.

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:53 am
by stratclub
kalvado wrote:
stratclub wrote:
Ah, yes. the Safety Expert. I have had to deal with those types before. Crippled by their "training". The upside down chart is hilarious, although what the chart represents is in fact in theory true It in noway tempers the work environment and peoples behaviors with common sense and situational awareness. More or less, the chart assumes everyone is just plain old stupid, so why promote common sense.

You can't eliminate every hazard. Would you take away butchers knives and give them Knives made out of foam? No? Why not? That would be the most effective (Elimination) control per the chart.

You don't take away knives - but you do give steel mesh gloves to knife users, you get food processors to do the cutting - and do whatever it takes to reduce possibility of injury.
Accidents we discuss do happen, and we all know that. It didn't happen to you personally.... Not yet? Beware, such statements tend to bite back; and I had to learn that the hard way. You may praise situation awareness, airmanship and common sense all you want. But you end up with someone flying a last leg of 12 hour day after minimum mandated rest period and no time for lunch; minimum wage ramper pushing the plane; snow, rain, night operations obstructing visibility and what not.
We know cohort performance - which is, again, shows that shit happens.
As it is correctly pointed out, those accident may still be relatively minor and infrequent, so additional cost is not worth it. That is completely different story, it is a separate interesting and useful discussion....
I am aware only of one 747 written off due to the judgement of such skilled drivers...


So your upside down triangle chart is pure nonsense then and is an invalid tool. Non of the situations you referred to above (Bold Type) involved what you claimed to be the "Best Solution" (Elimination) for refining safety Schema.

Every single time I have ever had an on the job injury was not because I wasn't following some ridiculous safety rule written by some "expert" that has never actually done the job, it was because a got in a hurry and lost situational awareness.

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:35 am
by Harry765
Techniques for clipping the wings vary primarily in the number of feathers cut and the amount of each feather left behind. A mild clip on one wing only can impair a bird's flight greatly, as it renders the bird unbalanced in the air. This can cause injury or death to the bird if it strikes a hard surface during a fall.

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:50 am
by WIederling
kalvado wrote:
On a separate but similar notice: EASA doing some work on same type of device, lidar, for the secondary air data system. So idea of putting optical ports on the airframe and keeping them reasonably performing is not beyond reality.


1983:
From a DLR and UNI Braunschweig project I remember a system that used a dual focal point laser system.
The foci moved in antipode fashion over a virtual sphere some distance from the hull.
Particle reflections from illumination in the focal points were measured.
Foci axis was algorythmically adjusted for
max double counts -> direction of airflow,
first to second pulse delay -> velocity.

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:02 pm
by kalvado
WIederling wrote:
kalvado wrote:
On a separate but similar notice: EASA doing some work on same type of device, lidar, for the secondary air data system. So idea of putting optical ports on the airframe and keeping them reasonably performing is not beyond reality.


1983:
From a DLR and UNI Braunschweig project I remember a system that used a dual focal point laser system.
The foci moved in antipode fashion over a virtual sphere some distance from the hull.
Particle reflections from illumination in the focal points were measured.
Foci axis was algorythmically adjusted for
max double counts -> direction of airflow,
first to second pulse delay -> velocity.

Interesting design, took me a while to digest...
WHat I am talking about is, apparently, further development of the idea. They are still looking at the particles in the air, but use lidar to measure the speed. Multiple lidar ports looking at multiple angles = several speed projections; they get 3 components of air velocity with respect to the hull. Forward airspeed and AoA are calculated. No moving parts (save for optics shutters for dust protection), and much quicker responce, on the order of fraction of a second.
Not sure if that would work in the grand scheme of things, but they were doing flight testing. I wish I saved the link....

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:12 pm
by kalvado
stratclub wrote:
kalvado wrote:
stratclub wrote:
Ah, yes. the Safety Expert. I have had to deal with those types before. Crippled by their "training". The upside down chart is hilarious, although what the chart represents is in fact in theory true It in noway tempers the work environment and peoples behaviors with common sense and situational awareness. More or less, the chart assumes everyone is just plain old stupid, so why promote common sense.

You can't eliminate every hazard. Would you take away butchers knives and give them Knives made out of foam? No? Why not? That would be the most effective (Elimination) control per the chart.

You don't take away knives - but you do give steel mesh gloves to knife users, you get food processors to do the cutting - and do whatever it takes to reduce possibility of injury.
Accidents we discuss do happen, and we all know that. It didn't happen to you personally.... Not yet? Beware, such statements tend to bite back; and I had to learn that the hard way. You may praise situation awareness, airmanship and common sense all you want. But you end up with someone flying a last leg of 12 hour day after minimum mandated rest period and no time for lunch; minimum wage ramper pushing the plane; snow, rain, night operations obstructing visibility and what not.
We know cohort performance - which is, again, shows that shit happens.
As it is correctly pointed out, those accident may still be relatively minor and infrequent, so additional cost is not worth it. That is completely different story, it is a separate interesting and useful discussion....
I am aware only of one 747 written off due to the judgement of such skilled drivers...


So your upside down triangle chart is pure nonsense then and is an invalid tool. Non of the situations you referred to above (Bold Type) involved what you claimed to be the "Best Solution" (Elimination) for refining safety Schema.

Every single time I have ever had an on the job injury was not because I wasn't following some ridiculous safety rule written by some "expert" that has never actually done the job, it was because a got in a hurry and lost situational awareness.

My impression is we are talking about the same thing. You do mistakes because you're in a hurry and loose situational awareness, and procedure is designed crasily?
Engineering level of a pyramid is to be used to make sure those mistakes don't lead to serious consequences. Not to change the way YOU work (that is up to the union, or your boss, to make sure you are well rested and in no rush). It is hard to give a good example without knowing the specifics; classic one is a good exhaust or fume hood when dealing with chemicals. You're still doing same thing, but not breathing that stuff even if you spill something. It can mean better tools, for example, or making the machine do some bad parts of handwork..
making you change the way you work - aka adding yet another rule, send a memo and schedule yet another training - is NOT engineering, but the administrative level of a pyramid.
What you put in bold is a part of a problem, not a part of a solution.

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:18 pm
by 747Whale
kalvado wrote:
747Whale wrote:
You're not a pilot, are you?

Have you ever actually taxied an aircraft?

Aha, I expected that for a long time.
No, but I have driven a car - which is conceptually similar task; and I did have accidents which are similar to clipping, and I saw much more serious accidents of that type. And I know car manufacturers do include bells and whistles - like cameras and proximity sensors - to avoid such accidents. Those became available lately, as technology progressed - and some are even mandated components these days.

Now you, Mr. Type Rated Pilot... Did you ever design a system where safety is sufficient consideration? Or maybe you're a chief pilot for your airline responsible for setting up procedures? Or anything else where you job is to question existing safety procedures or setup new ones? Or all you did is adhere to procedure someone else written for you?


Ok...you're not a pilot. You're on an aviation web site lecturing pilots with several decades experience. More to the point, you've never taxied an aircraft, and yet you're condescending when conversing with those who have. Your arrogance knows no bounds.

You may not understand this concept, so there may be little use betraying the secret to you, but an airplane is not a car. Try to wrap your mind around that, if you can.

Multiple type ratings, actually.

Among previous jobs, yes, Director of Safety was one. Thanks for asking. It's irrelevant.

You've attacked me in this thread over comments I didn't make more than once, and your comments made clear that you had no idea what you were talking about, given the subject. You know nothing about determining distance from other aircraft, maneuvering an aircraft on the ground, parking an aircraft, or towing an aircraft, let alone the use of ground personnel, coordination in movement, whether ground cockpit, or crew coordination between both. I do it daily, as do many. here. Never the less, your presumption is to lecture and tell us that it's a shame we can't achieve your level of understanding...the one who knows least of all.

It's taken nearly four decades for me to get here. When you've put in the time and effort, by all means pop back in and offer your insight, once you have a leg to stand on and know what you're talking about. Until then, your drivel is at best tiresome, and at worst, inconsequential. Perhaps you can apply it, however, to driving your car.

Re: More and more wing clipping incidents?

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:35 pm
by GalaxyFlyer
Eternal vigilance is the only answer, that and an attitude “there is NO excuse for a taxi accident”. Eighteen years operating C-5s into lots of small places taught me to know exactly where the clearance exists. I’ll bet all these nifty new electronics in cars is going to get people to rely on them to keep them from an accident while texting, combing their hair, putting on make-up, reading the news and dozens of other stupidities I see daily.

GF