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aviators99
Topic Author
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 6:41 pm

AA 2198 02-17 0308Z TOGA DFW 17L

Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:21 am

Hi,

I just experienced the scariest go-around I've ever experienced. Local controller issued TOGO, but to maintain 3000 on the localizer. This is obviously a difficult situation, considering we were at around 2500. Takeoff power for about 5 seconds, then idle. Then alternating high thrust and idle with very little time in between, for about 5 minutes. It seemed to me that the pilot was fighting the plane.

Airbusdriver.net says:

Once TOGA is used please note that autothrust is now manually set and WILL NOT reduce until brought back to the Climb detent by the pilot (as during a normal takeoff). This means that the autothrust will not reduce on level out while in TOGA detent. If you are rapidly approaching an altitude in TOGA you must bring the thrust levers back to the Climb detent. When in TOGA the aircraft will continue to accelerate when level until it hits the Vmax limit and Normal law takes over. The long and short here, if you TOGA on go around be ready to reduce thrust faster than normal if leveling at a low altitude. If LVR CLB flashes in the FMA you may reduce to Climb Power (CL) detent.

Listening to the liveatc.net archive, he told the tower he would be going to 4k, and they told him to not do that (pretty sure he already busted the altitude). Handed off to departure, but pilot did not respond to departure for around 3 minutes, despite them trying to reach them, which also leads me to believe he was fighting the a/c. Once he did respond, they punished with, "I'm going to have to take you the long way around, now".

Based on the airbusdriver.net quote above, it's probably not a good scenario. But I wonder what he could have done differently. Do you think he left TOGA enabled when he should not have? Looking for speculation.
 
mwmav8r01
Posts: 70
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:22 pm

Re: AA 2198 02-17 0308Z TOGA DFW 17L

Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:54 am

At that altitude no need to use TOGA. Disconnect automation, reconnect it us a mode like vertical speed to the altitude. TOGA is for low altitude go arounds. Just my opinion, each operstor has different rules though.
 
aviators99
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Re: AA 2198 02-17 0308Z TOGA DFW 17L

Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:00 am

That's my read as well. But considering the symptoms, do you think he enabled TOGA and that was the issue?
 
flyinTLow
Posts: 491
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Re: AA 2198 02-17 0308Z TOGA DFW 17L

Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:09 am

mwmav8r01 wrote:
At that altitude no need to use TOGA. Disconnect automation, reconnect it us a mode like vertical speed to the altitude. TOGA is for low altitude go arounds. Just my opinion, each operstor has different rules though.


You don‘ need TOGA necessarily, but if you do not put the thrust levers into the TOGA notch, the FMS will not enter the Go-Around phase. When you now overfly the Runway Threshold entered in the FMS without it being in the go-around phase, the FMS is cleared as it thinks it landed and you are left with an empty flightplan. No big issue, but that‘s just why it is better to hit that TOGA detent for a second.

Just a short explanation.
- When dreams take flight, follow them -
 
aviators99
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Posts: 54
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Re: AA 2198 02-17 0308Z TOGA DFW 17L

Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:41 am

Ah. flyinTLow, so this leads me to believe maybe pilot did *not* hit the TOGA. Would that explain the symptoms?
 
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keesje
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Re: AA 2198 02-17 0308Z TOGA DFW 17L

Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:31 am

Handed off to departure, but pilot did not respond to departure for around 3 minutes, despite them trying to reach them, which also leads me to believe he was fighting the a/c.


"fly the aircraft" is always the first priority. Not telling what you are doing.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
aviators99
Topic Author
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 6:41 pm

Re: AA 2198 02-17 0308Z TOGA DFW 17L

Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:25 pm

keesje wrote:
Handed off to departure, but pilot did not respond to departure for around 3 minutes, despite them trying to reach them, which also leads me to believe he was fighting the a/c.


"fly the aircraft" is always the first priority. Not telling what you are doing.


Of course. But shouldn't have been much to do (maintain 3,000, fly the localizer)
 
THS214
Posts: 362
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Re: AA 2198 02-17 0308Z TOGA DFW 17L

Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:40 pm

keesje wrote:
Handed off to departure, but pilot did not respond to departure for around 3 minutes, despite them trying to reach them, which also leads me to believe he was fighting the a/c.


"fly the aircraft" is always the first priority. Not telling what you are doing.


3 minutes in a simple go around. It takes only 5-20 seconds normally to respond ATC. Anything longer and there is a problem. Be it wind shear, wrong frequency, but 3 minutes is long. While flying the plane it is also important to let others know what you are doing. Most of the time separate things can be done simultaneously.
 
flyinTLow
Posts: 491
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:40 pm

Re: AA 2198 02-17 0308Z TOGA DFW 17L

Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:11 am

Most go-arounds catch you off guard. That often times leads to „doing something quickly“. And then you get to one of my favorite sayings in German:

„Das Gegenteil von gut is häufig gut gemeint.“ - „The opposite of good are good intensions.“

It has happened to me before, and I am assuming the majority of pilots arouns the world: when performing a go-around from „non-standard altitudes“ - basically anything that is not at or close to minimums or low MISAP altitudes like in former Soviet countriesn“ - things can be screwed up quickly. A lot of power leads to high climb rates and high accelerations which require quick reconfigurations all of that accompanied in a very dynamic AGC environment. Best idea is always to take a deep breath, reengage the autopilot, then think about what you are about to do and then actually perform the missed approach. Only the go-around at or below the minimum requires immediate action, all others have time. But all of that is easily said from an armchair.

To answer the question: It is very hard to say without having further information. Just additional technical background:

In order to activate the go-around phase you have to hit the TOGA notch, which is the most forward notch. This also armes the autothrust again.

When peforming a normal, „flexed“ takeoff, you put the thrust levers in the Flex/MCT notch, which is the second most forward notch. This also armes the autothrust.

Autothrust is enganged ONLY when pulling back the thrust levers into the CLB notch, which is 1 notch back from Flex (hence what most pilots are used to), and 2 notchss from TOGA. So the order from most forward is TOGA - Flex/MCT - Climb. When only pulling back 1 from TOGA, you end up in MCT. In this case the autothrust is not yet active and that can lead to additional chaos.

Also when maintaining an altitude with climb thrust (or MCT for that matter) set the aircraft accelerates extremly quickly, especially at lighter weight at the end of the flight in comparison to righ after takeoff. That can lead to overspeeds if you are not quick enough in retracting flaps and the gear.

Cheers,

flyinTLow
- When dreams take flight, follow them -
 
flyinTLow
Posts: 491
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Re: AA 2198 02-17 0308Z TOGA DFW 17L

Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:15 am

THS214 wrote:
keesje wrote:
Handed off to departure, but pilot did not respond to departure for around 3 minutes, despite them trying to reach them, which also leads me to believe he was fighting the a/c.


"fly the aircraft" is always the first priority. Not telling what you are doing.


3 minutes in a simple go around. It takes only 5-20 seconds normally to respond ATC. Anything longer and there is a problem. Be it wind shear, wrong frequency, but 3 minutes is long. While flying the plane it is also important to let others know what you are doing. Most of the time separate things can be done simultaneously.


Yes, but it is always AVIATE - NAVIGATE - COMMUNICATE.
If ATC tells you to go around they will most certai ly watch you out of their windows and on their screens, so they get a response in your reaction as well. Yes 3 minutes is no excuse, but then again you never know what happened. Maybe it was just pure „fingertrouble“.
- When dreams take flight, follow them -
 
aviators99
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Posts: 54
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 6:41 pm

Re: AA 2198 02-17 0308Z TOGA DFW 17L

Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:09 am

flyinTLow wrote:
THS214 wrote:
keesje wrote:

"fly the aircraft" is always the first priority. Not telling what you are doing.


3 minutes in a simple go around. It takes only 5-20 seconds normally to respond ATC. Anything longer and there is a problem. Be it wind shear, wrong frequency, but 3 minutes is long. While flying the plane it is also important to let others know what you are doing. Most of the time separate things can be done simultaneously.


Yes, but it is always AVIATE - NAVIGATE - COMMUNICATE.
If ATC tells you to go around they will most certai ly watch you out of their windows and on their screens, so they get a response in your reaction as well. Yes 3 minutes is no excuse, but then again you never know what happened. Maybe it was just pure „fingertrouble“.


Just for completeness, the whole thing was IMC, so nobody literally watching out the window.
 
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tb727
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Re: AA 2198 02-17 0308Z TOGA DFW 17L

Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:00 pm

aviators99 wrote:
Hi,

I just experienced the scariest go-around I've ever experienced. Local controller issued TOGO, but to maintain 3000 on the localizer. This is obviously a difficult situation, considering we were at around 2500. Takeoff power for about 5 seconds, then idle. Then alternating high thrust and idle with very little time in between, for about 5 minutes. It seemed to me that the pilot was fighting the plane.


No, it sounds like the airplane was doing exactly what he was telling it to do lol. Could have been someone fairly new to the Bus getting their first intermediate altitude go-around. In fact I would bet a lot of money it was someone new to it. My first one was the opposite, first month on line, didn't go TOGA quick then back to CLB, it dumped our flight plan but luckily we were just on vectors back around to a visual(we were too high). Wasn't a big deal but I learned. When you do go to TOGA on AP in the 320 series, it goes for it and goes for it quick! My first one in the Bus in nasty weather was in RSW as a storm rolled in with gusts to 75, tower closed, we went around and left it in TOGA, quite impressive performance, turned a little left out of the line and it was all good.

Did a GA in BOS one night around 400' because a DL MD88 got lost on the runway and had his nose over the grass. Engaged the AP knowing it was going to happen to lessen the workload. TOGA quick then CLB and it was a very smooth trip around the pattern.

There are a lot of different GA scenarios and like someone said above, you might not be ready for all of them. Sometimes they are in managed NAV, sometimes it's an assigned heading, altitudes above or even below or to stay at. Different techniques and procedures for each. Just have to stay sharp and not rush it if you are at an altitude you can think for an extra second.
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