In past couple of years several instances occurred where PAX opened the emergency exit while the plane was on the ground.

I has me wondering, what would happen if an unruly passenger would open an emergency door at the moment of take-off, perhaps for some extra drama, at the time of rotation?
What is the impact of the subsequent emergency slide opening on the safety of the flight?

BBVB

Pre-pressurization might make it hard to casually open the doors. The pressure is designed to be low enough to make opening possible, but might be difficult. Second, if the crew continued the take-off, the slide would be ripped off by the slipstream, depending on door design either not much or also torn off. If torn off, it’d then depend on lots of factors. A C-5 door came off and went thru an engine.

Emergency doors are plugs, so it’d be inside, plane wouldn’t pressurize, they’d land. I doubt anyon3 could stuff the door thru the hole with the slipstream.

GF

The door handles lock on the 777 and 787 during the takeoff roll. Nuff said abut that stupid thought.

Actually happened on a 757 B-1 (first flight) out of Renton several years ago (like 20). It was an overwing slide which is not packed with the door but external to the pressure hull -- similar to that on several other Boeing models. There was an indication in the cockpit but the captain initiated the takeoff anyway. After getting airborne the slide came out with a bang, scared the s--t out of a couple of engineers that were on the flight, attempted to wrap itself around the horizontal stabilizer and fell into Lake Washington never to be seen again.

Although the airplane was repaired there were always rumors of a NWA 757 that flew a little crooked.

Until his retirement I occasionally would ask the copilot (who had way more experience than the captain) why he just didn't get out of the seat so the captain couldn't takeoff -- he just chuckled -- having flown with that captain I understood.

7BOEING7 wrote:

Actually happened on a 757 B-1 (first flight) out of Renton several years ago (like 20). It was an overwing slide which is not packed with the door but external to the pressure hull -- similar to that on several other Boeing models. There was an indication in the cockpit but the captain initiated the takeoff anyway. After getting airborne the slide came out with a bang, scared the s--t out of a couple of engineers that were on the flight, attempted to wrap itself around the horizontal stabilizer and fell into Lake Washington never to be seen again.

Although the airplane was repaired there were always rumors of a NWA 757 that flew a little crooked.

Until his retirement I occasionally would ask the copilot (who had way more experience than the captain) why he just didn't get out of the seat so the captain couldn't takeoff -- he just chuckled -- having flown with that captain I understood.

Haha. I know who the Captain was. I heard the story too and was told that she was advised not to take off with the indication shown.

Really great story. If you take off with an O/W exit ajar light illuminated, it might ruin your day and have you sent to human factors training.

Had a CA have a uncommanded nose gear drop down on climb out at about FL120...FL130.

When got he cut back to the field and called up for MX Ctrl, it qoute.... " Woke me the hell up."

There have been several incidents of 767 overwing slides deploying on takeoff. Obviously not a good thing and yes some damage, but nothing catastrophic.

mikeinatlanta wrote:

There have been several incidents of 767 overwing slides deploying on takeoff. Obviously not a good thing and yes some damage, but nothing catastrophic.

Did it fire the inboard spoilers pyrotechnic blow down device?

stratclub wrote:

mikeinatlanta wrote:

There have been several incidents of 767 overwing slides deploying on takeoff. Obviously not a good thing and yes some damage, but nothing catastrophic.

Did it fire the inboard spoilers pyrotechnic blow down device?

Not that I know of. The incidents I'm aware of revolve around the latches opening inadvertently. Sorry, but can't really provide detail beyond that. Funny thing about this internet stuff. Those who know aren't allowed to talk about it so those who don't know have the loudest voice.

For such things, I don't believe that people that know are not allowed to talk about it, they just don't because the general public probably would not understand.

BravoOne wrote:

The door handles lock on the 777 and 787 during the takeoff roll. Nuff said abut that stupid thought.

Can we please have a like option on this forum:-)

mikeinatlanta wrote:

stratclub wrote:

mikeinatlanta wrote:

There have been several incidents of 767 overwing slides deploying on takeoff. Obviously not a good thing and yes some damage, but nothing catastrophic.

Did it fire the inboard spoilers pyrotechnic blow down device?

Not that I know of. The incidents I'm aware of revolve around the latches opening inadvertently. Sorry, but can't really provide detail beyond that. Funny thing about this internet stuff. Those who know aren't allowed to talk about it so those who don't know have the loudest voice.

I'm trying to wrap mind on how that would happen on the 767. The door would have to open significantly for the slide to deploy outide the aircraft, and as the aircraft would pressurize some 50/100' below the runway alt, I;m not sure that the small pressure differential would be overcome by slide activation? Hmm.....

BravoOne wrote:

mikeinatlanta wrote:

stratclub wrote:

Did it fire the inboard spoilers pyrotechnic blow down device?

Not that I know of. The incidents I'm aware of revolve around the latches opening inadvertently. Sorry, but can't really provide detail beyond that. Funny thing about this internet stuff. Those who know aren't allowed to talk about it so those who don't know have the loudest voice.

I'm trying to wrap mind on how that would happen on the 767. The door would have to open significantly for the slide to deploy outide the aircraft, and as the aircraft would pressurize some 50/100' below the runway alt, I;m not sure that the small pressure differential would be overcome by slide activation? Hmm.....

Just to be clear here, the overwing slides for the 757/767 as well as others are external to the pressurized part of the airplane so the slide door is easily blown open by the inflation of the slide at low speed possibly at any speed. After which the slide is ripped from its attach points.

7BOEING7 wrote:

BravoOne wrote:

mikeinatlanta wrote:

Not that I know of. The incidents I'm aware of revolve around the latches opening inadvertently. Sorry, but can't really provide detail beyond that. Funny thing about this internet stuff. Those who know aren't allowed to talk about it so those who don't know have the loudest voice.

I'm trying to wrap mind on how that would happen on the 767. The door would have to open significantly for the slide to deploy outide the aircraft, and as the aircraft would pressurize some 50/100' below the runway alt, I;m not sure that the small pressure differential would be overcome by slide activation? Hmm.....

Just to be clear here, the overwing slides for the 757/767 as well as others are external to the pressurized part of the airplane so the slide door is easily blown open by the inflation of the slide at low speed possibly at any speed. After which the slide is ripped from its attach points.

I was just referencing the door slide. I assume have some data that shows the door slide would open on fully pressurized fuselage. I don't think so, but then I don't recall ever having discussed the subject before?

For the most part this is is industry standard.

Below 80 knots stop.

Above 80 knots we only stop for:

Fire
Failure (engine)
Loss of directional control
Unable or unsafe to fly

After v1 we continue.

Without knowing how much drag a slide exerts, still, I think a slide blowing satisfies the criteria to stop below v1 (loss of directional control or unsafe to fly if it fouls the horizontal stab) but not otherwise.

BravoOne wrote:

7BOEING7 wrote:

BravoOne wrote:

I'm trying to wrap mind on how that would happen on the 767. The door would have to open significantly for the slide to deploy outide the aircraft, and as the aircraft would pressurize some 50/100' below the runway alt, I;m not sure that the small pressure differential would be overcome by slide activation? Hmm.....

Just to be clear here, the overwing slides for the 757/767 as well as others are external to the pressurized part of the airplane so the slide door is easily blown open by the inflation of the slide at low speed possibly at any speed. After which the slide is ripped from its attach points.

I was just referencing the door slide. I assume have some data that shows the door slide would open on fully pressurized fuselage. I don't think so, but then I don't recall ever having discussed the subject before?

Pressurization has nothing to do with the slide deploying since the slide is completely outside of the pressure vessel. What could trip the slide is a flaky switch that is suppose to indicate that the over wing hatch is closed and secure.

stratclub wrote:

For such things, I don't believe that people that know are not allowed to talk about it, they just don't because the general public probably would not understand.

People who know can't for a range of reasons but they are not regulatory. Think more along the lines of liability. It's one thing to post an anonymous opinion when you have no direct knowledge, but quite another when the opinion is informed and could sway the outcome of a contentious issue.

On the 767 overwing slide issue in particular: Is it a design flaw, defective components, or poor maintenance practice that has allowed them to deploy in flight? There are experts paid to share their opinions on this and do so in an appropriate forum.

Another example would be when any airline loses a plane. The employees with direct knowledge of the airplane sit back and stay quiet, no matter how stupid, ignorant, or expert a theory or opinion posted online. Even when the investigation is complete, those with dirty fingerprints on the log book will mourn the loss, but not engage in the online debates.

That said: I do admit to (and expect others do too) occasionally holding back due to the apparent cognitive limitation of the reader. No point arguing with a flat earther or chemtrail theorist (or even a TWA shot down by a missile theorist) as it is a waste of time. I'll go all day if someone is willing to learn.

So, back to the OP's question. No, most doors can't be opened on an airplane in flight, but some possibly could be if unpressurized. On a 747 the door hinges forward and could never be forced open in the air, but a 767 moves inside and raises up into the cabin ceiling, so it could potentially be opened while airborne and unpressurized, which would lead to a slide deployment if all circumstances were perfectly aligned to make it happen.

Regardless, we have a good idea what would happen based on the outcome of overwing slides deploying. Basically they self destruct and do a bit of damage. Nothing earth shattering.

Much more interesting is when a slide deploys inside the cabin. Gets real exciting real quick. As an FYI: Most of these slides are not directly inflated by the nitrogen cylinder. The nitrogen cylinder powers a large venturi that does the actual inflating.

Redbellyguppy wrote:

For the most part this is is industry standard.

Below 80 knots stop.

Above 80 knots we only stop for:

Fire
Failure (engine)
Loss of directional control
Unable or unsafe to fly

After v1 we continue.

Without knowing how much drag a slide exerts, still, I think a slide blowing satisfies the criteria to stop below v1 (loss of directional control or unsafe to fly if it fouls the horizontal stab) but not otherwise.

Um, exactly how would the flight crew, presumably behind a closed cockpit door, know a slide deployed?

The only question the flight crew has to answer, is when or if they reject for a door indication, because, my suspicion is, that’s the initial indication they’ll get that a slide has deployed. Especially, if the slide in question is not L1 or R1, and even then, all they would know is that they heard a noise accompanying the door warning.

***Disclaimer*** I can't recall if the overwing slides installed in the fuselage of some aircraft have some indication independent of the door indication.

mikeinatlanta wrote:

On a 747 the door hinges forward and could never be forced open in the air

The door on a B747 can be cracked open in flight, we had a thread running on that somewhere. The question is, can the air assist bottle force the door open far enough to deploy the slide? I suspect, not, but I’m not an aerodynamic engineer, and can’t really speak to the boundary layer around the individual doors.

fr8mech wrote:

Um, exactly how would the flight crew, presumably behind a closed cockpit door, know a slide deployed?

Usually the screaming passengers will do it. The tone is different than the other bells, whistles, buzzers, claxons, alarms, chimes, and warning tones in the cockpit.

Those screams can only mean one of three things, each of which is easily discerned by tone, frequency, and the handling of the airplane. Either a spider is loose in first class, the coffee machine has gone bad, or a slide has deployed.

God forbid all three happen at once.

stratclub wrote:

BravoOne wrote:

7BOEING7 wrote:

Just to be clear here, the overwing slides for the 757/767 as well as others are external to the pressurized part of the airplane so the slide door is easily blown open by the inflation of the slide at low speed possibly at any speed. After which the slide is ripped from its attach points.

I was just referencing the door slide. I assume have some data that shows the door slide would open on fully pressurized fuselage. I don't think so, but then I don't recall ever having discussed the subject before?

Pressurization has nothing to do with the slide deploying since the slide is completely outside of the pressure vessel. What could trip the slide is a flaky switch that is suppose to indicate that the over wing hatch is closed and secure.

I'm talking about the door slide. How we got off on the over wing slide escaped me.

BravoOne wrote:

stratclub wrote:

BravoOne wrote:

I was just referencing the door slide. I assume have some data that shows the door slide would open on fully pressurized fuselage. I don't think so, but then I don't recall ever having discussed the subject before?

Pressurization has nothing to do with the slide deploying since the slide is completely outside of the pressure vessel. What could trip the slide is a flaky switch that is suppose to indicate that the over wing hatch is closed and secure.

I'm talking about the door slide. How we got off on the over wing slide escaped me.

Somebody brought up an incident where a slide actually did deploy, and that particular slide was the overwing slide.

It would be very unlikely for a door to even be opened if the aircraft is pressurized even to 1/2 PSI because most people would not have the strength to open the door. Also, even if you could unlatch the door, it being upwind of the door opening would make it pretty tough if not impossible to open the door enough to cause slide deployment.

777 and 787 have door locks the automatically set at rotation that make it impossible to open the doors in flight. If a door slide did deploy in flight it would blow into the cabin and ruin anybodies day that was in it's path. If a slide deploys in the aircraft, it does a pretty good job of destroying interior furnishings (galleys ceilings etc) that are in the slides inflation path.

stratclub wrote:

For such things, I don't believe that people that know are not allowed to talk about it, they just don't because the general public probably would not understand.

Posting here has cost people their jobs.
Unfortunately so much that would be helpful to share may be proprietary or exposure employers to liability.
That's the double edged blade that is the modern interwebs.

stratclub wrote:

777 and 787 have door locks the automatically set at rotation that make it impossible to open the doors in flight.

Not to be pedantic but technically I believe it is a weight on wheels switch.

In regards to the overwing slide popping out. I'm quite certain they would be able to pop at any speed or altitude. I doubt the external pressure on that door is anything more than half a PSI. and it's probably a suction load given it's location. (Note because I believe some people are still confused here, the 767 overwing slide is outside the pressure vessel inside the overwing fairing. It is separate from the emergency door which opens inward)

Question. Do the overwing slides get removed from the aircraft in the passenger to freighter conversion of a 767? I think a few of you may know where my train of thought is going here. I won't speculate beyond that yet.

Tod wrote:

stratclub wrote:

For such things, I don't believe that people that know are not allowed to talk about it, they just don't because the general public probably would not understand.

Posting here has cost people their jobs.
Unfortunately so much that would be helpful to share may be proprietary or exposure employers to liability.
That's the double edged blade that is the modern interwebs.

Indeed. I had to let go of two employees about a month ago over an issue that was posted here. Just as an aside, one of them had one of those ridiculous "these are my opinions and not my employer's" disclaimer. I cannot emphasize enough how completely useless those are; they will not, under any circumstances, come close to saving a job. And that's in CA.

Sorry to be a little off topic, but I felt that was an important point to add to, given what can happen with social media & liability.

trpmb6 wrote:

Question. Do the overwing slides get removed from the aircraft in the passenger to freighter conversion of a 767? I think a few of you may know where my train of thought is going here. I won't speculate beyond that yet.

Could very well be. I can find out for sure within a day, but someone will likely beat me to it.

As for things like this...

Often as not, there will be a lot of PAX features left over in an F conversion. The 744 conversions, for example, carry still six O2 containers in the FWD lower cargo deck. There's no need of this, but no one felt changing that was a necessary regulatory hurdle to deal with. As a consequence, not only do the stretch-hump 744 Cargo birds have the same number of O2 tanks they did as PAX aircraft, they are required by law to keep them operational and serviced.

Cheaper to keep them then to develop the engineering and expend the manpower to delete them. I worked building the very last Boeing E6 and even though the 707 airframe it was built from hadn't had lead acid batteries in the battery box in the nose wheel well for 20 or 30 years, some of the sheet metal brackets were still there apparently because it was cheaper to keep producing aircraft with them than engineering the brackets out of the build.

DarkSnowyNight wrote:

trpmb6 wrote:

Question. Do the overwing slides get removed from the aircraft in the passenger to freighter conversion of a 767? I think a few of you may know where my train of thought is going here. I won't speculate beyond that yet.

Could very well be. I can find out for sure within a day, but someone will likely beat me to it.

As for things like this...

Often as not, there will be a lot of PAX features left over in an F conversion. The 744 conversions, for example, carry still six O2 containers in the FWD lower cargo deck. There's no need of this, but no one felt changing that was a necessary regulatory hurdle to deal with. As a consequence, not only do the stretch-hump 744 Cargo birds have the same number of O2 tanks they did as PAX aircraft, they are required by law to keep them operational and serviced.

Exactly along the lines I was thinking. Unless they were really gun-ho about getting weight out to increase payload (which in these days is less of a concern since we're almost always volume limited anyways) I figured they'd be left in.

stratclub wrote:

Cheaper to keep them then to develop the engineering and expend the manpower to delete them. I worked building the very last Boeing E6 and even though the 707 airframe it was built from hadn't had lead acid batteries in the battery box in the nose wheel well for 20 or 30 years, some of the sheet metal brackets were still there apparently because it was cheaper to keep producing aircraft with them than engineering the brackets out of the build.

I know of many other instances where this happens. Won't post specifics for obvious reasons but in general: Once something is put on an airplane and certified it's much harder to get it off that airplane.

Suffice to say, I suspect you guys know what i'm thinking about in regard to recent events, but I'm not going to start any conspiracy theories - its highly unlikely as it is.

I have no clue. Something I do if I want to post something that might be proprietary or top secret is look for the information I want to post on the Internet. If I can find the info, it means its already out there and if I ever get checked over posting, I'm covered because the info is already out there.

trpmb6 wrote:

Exactly along the lines I was thinking. Unless they were really gun-ho about getting weight out to increase payload (which in these days is less of a concern since we're almost always volume limited anyways) I figured they'd be left in.

...


Suffice to say, I suspect you guys know what i'm thinking about in regard to recent events, but I'm not going to start any conspiracy theories - its highly unlikely as it is.

I think I get what you're laying down. . .

Anyway, I had a chance to look into it at work today. Turns out, they are actually deleted. To the point of it being a totally different, non-hinged panel being mounted over wing where the hinge panel once was.

Not going to pretend I wasn't at least a little surprised by that, given my experience. But I was able to first hand confirm this by taking a stroll on out to one of our birds on a lunch break. Even the aft-gear well bulkhead mounted bottle pressure gauges have been deleted - that's just an empty box now.

Looks like this is applicable to all BCFs & IAI modified 763s, of which the Atlas 767 was one. Wagner Aeronautical is the only other vendor authorized to maintain the STC Program for the 763(ER)F. So I'm not 100% sure if they're 100% identical to the programs (STCs) Boeing have for the BCF & IAI variants. But it's a good guess that they are, as they get their tech data & drawings from Myboeingfleet. AFAIK, this is true for the 200s as well.


So, interesting story behind that (I'm fairly certain of this, though I'm treating this as ramp rumor... for reasons). Apparently the reason for the deletion was something of a cascade. They weren't originally going to bother with it, but they'd already deleted the exterior Emergency Lighting, not only for the overwings, but the entire aircraft as well. Note that these are not running lights or cargo bin exterior lighting. They'd also already 86'd the inboard spoiler pull-downs as well. Both of these took the overwing slides out of spec, and they had to go.

Further still, and actually unrelated. The addition of crew escape roping allowed for the deletion of the slide at the L1 door too (there are no R2 doors, or any other main/emergency exits remaining).

Anyway, thanks for bringing that up. It triggered a really awesome timekill of a conversation at work today with some of the old-timers, a few of whom actually worked the conversions on some of these.

DarkSnowyNight wrote:

Anyway, thanks for bringing that up. It triggered a really awesome timekill of a conversation at work today with some of the old-timers, a few of whom actually worked the conversions on some of these.

This is exactly why I love this site. Thanks for doing the investigative work and we can effectively kill any sort of conspiracy theory on those lines now haha.

Also, I know what you mean by talking with the old timers. Its sad that we don't have many around anymore to fill in the history of why some decisions were made years ago on different projects. The insight is often illuminating.

BravoOne wrote:

I'm talking about the door slide. How we got off on the over wing slide escaped me.

I brought up the overwing slide to address the second question in the OP. Lacking a door opening, having an overwing slide deploy provides solid anecdotal evidence of possible repercussions.

Nothing I posted was in response to anything you stated. I pretty much had you on ignore after...

BravoOne wrote:

Nuff said abut that stupid thought.

There, I fixed it for you.

7BOEING7 wrote:

BravoOne wrote:

mikeinatlanta wrote:

Not that I know of. The incidents I'm aware of revolve around the latches opening inadvertently. Sorry, but can't really provide detail beyond that. Funny thing about this internet stuff. Those who know aren't allowed to talk about it so those who don't know have the loudest voice.

I'm trying to wrap mind on how that would happen on the 767. The door would have to open significantly for the slide to deploy outide the aircraft, and as the aircraft would pressurize some 50/100' below the runway alt, I;m not sure that the small pressure differential would be overcome by slide activation? Hmm.....

Just to be clear here, the overwing slides for the 757/767 as well as others are external to the pressurized part of the airplane so the slide door is easily blown open by the inflation of the slide at low speed possibly at any speed. After which the slide is ripped from its attach points.

The Entry door on the 767 is 74" tall by 42" wide. With half a PSI on pressure on the door, one is looking at 1554 Lbs holding that door in place. Door assist will not do it, nor will slide activation.
Remember a MD-80 back in the 1990s air returning to MCO when the F/A at the Entry Door said she could see outside of the aircraft. How they did it, don't know. But that door was not closed correctly and the guide bar missed the guide roller. The door wasn't closed properly and popped open after rotation.

The overwing slides do not always rip from their attachment points.

Looks like something you would see hanging from the hitch of a big ol pickup truck.

stratclub wrote:

It would be very unlikely for a door to even be opened if the aircraft is pressurized even to 1/2 PSI because most people would not have the strength to open the door. Also, even if you could unlatch the door, it being upwind of the door opening would make it pretty tough if not impossible to open the door enough to cause slide deployment.

stratclub wrote:

]If a slide deploys in the aircraft, it does a pretty good job of destroying interior furnishings (galleys ceilings etc) that are in the slides inflation path.

Not really. The galley ceilings are pretty tough. Seen a few in the hangar slide deployments, just replace the slide.

I would certainly concede to your points. I have never seen a door slide actually deploy inside an aircraft. The closest to deploying a slide inside an aircraft I ever experienced was when I removed a door slide (747) and didn't understand the procedure for making it safe and when I laid it over to the floor, the lacing popped loose but fortunately the slide wasn't moved far enough to pull the firing pin and deploy. When the lacing popped I thought for a few seconds that for sure I was going to be killed by being crushed between the slide and a galley.

The very first thing that happens when a slide is deployed is as the door is opened, the lacing that holds it together are undone (Popped loose) and the slide falls out of the slide pack and at about 2 feet, a lanyard pulls the firing pin and the slide inflates.

BCEaglesCO757 wrote:

Had a CA have a uncommanded nose gear drop down on climb out at about FL120...FL130.

When got he cut back to the field and called up for MX Ctrl, it qoute.... " Woke me the hell up."

I’ve never heard of this FL120 stuff. Was that the space shuttle?

Lrockeagle wrote:

BCEaglesCO757 wrote:

Had a CA have a uncommanded nose gear drop down on climb out at about FL120...FL130.

When got he cut back to the field and called up for MX Ctrl, it qoute.... " Woke me the hell up."

I’ve never heard of this FL120 stuff. Was that the space shuttle?

It's 12,000.

NYPECO wrote:

Lrockeagle wrote:

BCEaglesCO757 wrote:

Had a CA have a uncommanded nose gear drop down on climb out at about FL120...FL130.

When got he cut back to the field and called up for MX Ctrl, it qoute.... " Woke me the hell up."

I’ve never heard of this FL120 stuff. Was that the space shuttle?

It's 12,000.

I was being sarcastic, because if you get on the radio and say “flight level one two zero”, you’re gonna have a bad time. “One two thousand” is appropriate and accepted.

Lrockeagle wrote:

NYPECO wrote:

Lrockeagle wrote:

I’ve never heard of this FL120 stuff. Was that the space shuttle?

It's 12,000.

I was being sarcastic, because if you get on the radio and say “flight level one two zero”, you’re gonna have a bad time. “One two thousand” is appropriate and accepted.

Depends where you are. Some countries have transition altitudes as low as 6,000 feet, and even 3,000 feet, in which case flight level 120 would be appropriate.