Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
WesternDC6B
Topic Author
Posts: 565
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:05 pm

Is a Swing-Tail Possible?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:33 pm

There has been much discussion about the eventual and possible discontinuance of the Boeing 747 freighter, which has a nose that can be raised for loading long cargo.

My question is: would it be feasible to bring back the "swing-tail", as found, for example, on the Canadair CL-44, thus filling this need?
“Pedantic” defined: spelling “pedantic” “pædantic”.
 
nws2002
Posts: 920
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:04 pm

Re: Is a Swing-Tail Possible?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:51 pm

It is possible, I mean the 747 Large Cargo Freighter has a swing tail.
 
stratclub
Posts: 1372
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:38 pm

Re: Is a Swing-Tail Possible?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:00 pm

Bring back the swing tail in what way? New production or modification of existing aircraft?
 
User avatar
WesternDC6B
Topic Author
Posts: 565
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:05 pm

Re: Is a Swing-Tail Possible?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:29 pm

stratclub wrote:
Bring back the swing tail in what way? New production or modification of existing aircraft?


Something existing, like, for example the Boeing 777.
“Pedantic” defined: spelling “pedantic” “pædantic”.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 4094
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: Is a Swing-Tail Possible?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:13 pm

Check out the CL44 (Flying Tiger, Slick and Seaboard World). Also there was a swing tail DC6B over in Europe as I recall.
 
User avatar
WesternDC6B
Topic Author
Posts: 565
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:05 pm

Re: Is a Swing-Tail Possible?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:06 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Check out the CL44 (Flying Tiger, Slick and Seaboard World). Also there was a swing tail DC6B over in Europe as I recall.


The CL44 and the DC6B are looonnggg discontinued. I mean something contemporary.

Full disclosure: I think the CL44 and its "parent" the Bristol Britannia are two of the most handsome planes made in the prop era.
“Pedantic” defined: spelling “pedantic” “pædantic”.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 4094
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: Is a Swing-Tail Possible?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:55 pm

I briefly flew the CL44 at Tigers while furloughed from WAL. Kinda fun.
 
mikeinatlanta
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:34 pm

Re: Is a Swing-Tail Possible?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:47 pm

Excepting something very specialized like the LCF, why would you want to?
Aircraft Maintenance Professional since 1979.
 
unimproved
Posts: 206
Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:14 pm

Re: Is a Swing-Tail Possible?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:18 pm

Ignoring the forces on the tail because you're using it to steer, there's also a lot of cables, hydraulics and such going to it. And the APU being fitted in it doesn't help either,
 
Okie
Posts: 4166
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

Re: Is a Swing-Tail Possible?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:46 pm

unimproved wrote:
Ignoring the forces on the tail because you're using it to steer, there's also a lot of cables, hydraulics and such going to it. And the APU being fitted in it doesn't help either,

You need to move into the 21st Century.
There are no hydraulic lines, mechanical cables between the tail section on any commercial aircraft that has been designed in the last 20 years.
They are all stand alone units for each hydraulic function.

I am not going to get into TMR redundancy here but for simplicity for discussion you could basically have 3 power cables (3 phase power) and a Cat 5 computer cable between the fuselage and the tail section which would easily handle a hinge movement.

The big issue is that there is just no real demand in the market for a tail swinging aircraft to justify the costs of design and certification for just a few units.

Okie
 
stratclub
Posts: 1372
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:38 pm

Re: Is a Swing-Tail Possible?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:23 pm

Wrong. All modern heavy aircraft have hydraulics pressure and return lines between the aft body and the elevators, rudder and the horizontal stabilizer trim system if the horizontal stabilizer trim system is hydraulically powered.

The difference is that fly by wire aircraft do not have control cables going to the control surfaces control valves, just wires.

The Boeing LCF does fine with control cables because the relationship between the tail hinge is such that swinging the tail does not change the control cables effective length when the tail is swung open so the tail control cables rigging does not change. IIRC, there are additional pulleys at the tail hinge point to accomplish this.

Almost forgot. The Boeing LCF does not have an APU.
Last edited by stratclub on Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27249
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Is a Swing-Tail Possible?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:36 pm

WesternDC6B wrote:
There has been much discussion about the eventual and possible discontinuance of the Boeing 747 freighter, which has a nose that can be raised for loading long cargo.


That type of cargo now makes up a small percentage of world-wide 747 movements. Even for items that could be nose-loaded on a 747, far more often they are carried on An-124s because 747 cargo operators do not want to carry it when they could use that space for high-revenue generating pallets.

The swinging tail of the 747-400LCF is a real pain-in-the-ass to work with: I've watched them wrestle with it at PAE and NGO. It is done that way only there because it is less of a pain in the ass than trying to do it with the nose. :biggrin:
 
User avatar
7BOEING7
Posts: 3039
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:28 pm

Re: Is a Swing-Tail Possible?

Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:33 am

And in the LCF case you need a special piece of gse to swing the tail and a special pad to operate on so things don’t bend.
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 2252
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Is a Swing-Tail Possible?

Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:40 am

Why not go ALL THE WAY BACK to twin boom, so you don't swing anything. The Flying Boxcar... with GTFs. Why not?
"The AC-119 was made more deadly by the introduction of... two underwing-mounted General Electric J85-GE-17 turbojet engines, adding nearly 6,000 lbf (27 kN) of thrust. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairchild ... ing_Boxcar
https://www.airliners.net/photo/USA-Air ... xcar/69363
 
WIederling
Posts: 9348
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Is a Swing-Tail Possible?

Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:42 am

Stitch wrote:
The swinging tail of the 747-400LCF is a real pain-in-the-ass to work with: I've watched them wrestle with it at PAE and NGO. It is done that way only there because it is less of a pain in the ass than trying to do it with the nose. :biggrin:


Airbus had the swinging nose experience.
They decided on the "front maw" Beluga design.
so much hassle avoided.
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
speedygonzales
Posts: 669
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:01 pm

Re: Is a Swing-Tail Possible?

Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:18 am

WIederling wrote:
Stitch wrote:
The swinging tail of the 747-400LCF is a real pain-in-the-ass to work with: I've watched them wrestle with it at PAE and NGO. It is done that way only there because it is less of a pain in the ass than trying to do it with the nose. :biggrin:


Airbus had the swinging nose experience.
They decided on the "front maw" Beluga design.
so much hassle avoided.

I was thinking about a Beluga XS, a regular A330 (or A350 for that matter) fuselage combined with the Beluga nose and forehead door, for long and narrow cargo post-747. With the much smaller door area it should be possible to retain pressurization of the cargo compartment.

Boeing should also be able to do a Beluga-style 777 or 787, as any Airbus patents should have expired by now.
Ignorance kills. :tombstone:
 
WIederling
Posts: 9348
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Is a Swing-Tail Possible?

Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:30 pm

speedygonzales wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Stitch wrote:
The swinging tail of the 747-400LCF is a real pain-in-the-ass to work with: I've watched them wrestle with it at PAE and NGO. It is done that way only there because it is less of a pain in the ass than trying to do it with the nose. :biggrin:


Airbus had the swinging nose experience.
They decided on the "front maw" Beluga design.
so much hassle avoided.

I was thinking about a Beluga XS, a regular A330 (or A350 for that matter) fuselage combined with the Beluga nose and forehead door, for long and narrow cargo post-747. With the much smaller door area it should be possible to retain pressurization of the cargo compartment.

Boeing should also be able to do a Beluga-style 777 or 787, as any Airbus patents should have expired by now.


do you know about this website:
http://www.allaboutguppys.com/

go here:
http://www.allaboutguppys.com/beluga/600stf.htm
Murphy is an optimist
 
stratclub
Posts: 1372
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:38 pm

Re: Is a Swing-Tail Possible?

Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:02 pm

The LCF certainly fails the LAR (Looks About Right) requirement. Damn ugly aircraft IMHO. I agree that with having to use a forklift to support the tail when you swing it certainly is a pain. And losing the APU? what a hassle for ground operations.

The Beluga? Airbus really did it right with that aircraft. What an elegant implementation, no forklift to support the cargo door for unloading. As a plus Airbus was able to keep the APU which is a real plus when you are doing maintenance.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27249
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Is a Swing-Tail Possible?

Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:11 pm

Stitch wrote:
The swinging tail of the 747-400LCF is a real pain-in-the-ass to work with: I've watched them wrestle with it at PAE and NGO. It is done that way only there because it is less of a pain in the ass than trying to do it with the nose. :biggrin:

WIederling wrote:
Airbus had the swinging nose experience. They decided on the "front maw" Beluga design. so much hassle avoided.


Well the cockpit location difference played a major role in the different design philosophies. If Boeing had used a 777, for example, it likely would have been similar to the A300-600ST.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6313
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: Is a Swing-Tail Possible?

Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:14 pm

nws2002 wrote:
It is possible, I mean the 747 Large Cargo Freighter has a swing tail.


A big problem with the LCF is that it doesn’t have an APU due to the difficulty of routing a fuel and pneumatic lines through the swing section. Unless something has changed since I last heard, it always needs a ground cart. That reduces operational flexibility.

As others have noted, there are significant challenges in designing an airplane with a swing tail.
 
planecane
Posts: 1579
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Is a Swing-Tail Possible?

Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:01 am

Wouldn't it be easier to make a swing nose out of a FBW aircraft?
 
User avatar
AirKevin
Posts: 626
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:18 am

Re: Is a Swing-Tail Possible?

Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:29 pm

planecane wrote:
Wouldn't it be easier to make a swing nose out of a FBW aircraft?

Not really sure how you'd make that work. Other than the 747, this would result in the flight deck being moved around when the nose is being swung open or closed.
Captain Kevin
 
planecane
Posts: 1579
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Is a Swing-Tail Possible?

Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:37 pm

AirKevin wrote:
planecane wrote:
Wouldn't it be easier to make a swing nose out of a FBW aircraft?

Not really sure how you'd make that work. Other than the 747, this would result in the flight deck being moved around when the nose is being swung open or closed.

Couldn't this be done in a FBW aircraft where you don't have control cables to the flight deck? Not saying it would be simple but simpler than the tail with hydraulic lines etc. going to it.
 
User avatar
AirKevin
Posts: 626
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:18 am

Re: Is a Swing-Tail Possible?

Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:48 pm

planecane wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
planecane wrote:
Wouldn't it be easier to make a swing nose out of a FBW aircraft?

Not really sure how you'd make that work. Other than the 747, this would result in the flight deck being moved around when the nose is being swung open or closed.

Couldn't this be done in a FBW aircraft where you don't have control cables to the flight deck? Not saying it would be simple but simpler than the tail with hydraulic lines etc. going to it.

But what I'm saying is, for starters, how would the pilots get in and out of the flight deck if the nose is swung open since presumably, the flight deck would be attached to the swinging nose section. Or are they supposed to wait until the cargo is fully loaded and the nose section is closed before they can get in. On a 747, it didn't matter if the nose door was open or closed, the pilots could still get in and out.
Captain Kevin
 
Dalmd88
Posts: 3150
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 3:19 am

Re: Is a Swing-Tail Possible?

Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:25 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
Why not go ALL THE WAY BACK to twin boom, so you don't swing anything. The Flying Boxcar... with GTFs. Why not?
"The AC-119 was made more deadly by the introduction of... two underwing-mounted General Electric J85-GE-17 turbojet engines, adding nearly 6,000 lbf (27 kN) of thrust. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairchild ... ing_Boxcar
https://www.airliners.net/photo/USA-Air ... xcar/69363

This would be cool looking.
 
planecane
Posts: 1579
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Is a Swing-Tail Possible?

Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:09 pm

AirKevin wrote:
planecane wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
Not really sure how you'd make that work. Other than the 747, this would result in the flight deck being moved around when the nose is being swung open or closed.

Couldn't this be done in a FBW aircraft where you don't have control cables to the flight deck? Not saying it would be simple but simpler than the tail with hydraulic lines etc. going to it.

But what I'm saying is, for starters, how would the pilots get in and out of the flight deck if the nose is swung open since presumably, the flight deck would be attached to the swinging nose section. Or are they supposed to wait until the cargo is fully loaded and the nose section is closed before they can get in. On a 747, it didn't matter if the nose door was open or closed, the pilots could still get in and out.


I was thinking that since it is a specialized type of mission that the pilots would wait until the cargo was loaded and the nose secured in flight position before entering the cockpit. Since 747-8f's can still be ordered and have been built relatively recently, there are probably enough that will be around 30 or 40 years that a new swing nose or swing tail aircraft is probably not necessary for a while.
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 2252
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Is a Swing-Tail Possible?

Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:33 pm

I am in the minority, I know, but I think quad cargo a/c are here to stay. More thrust, more payload. There's more to come after the GEnx-2B and GE9X.
https://www.geaviation.com/commercial/e ... aft-engine

I'm not proposing putting GE9X, or even GE90-115B (currently on the triple 7), on a 748... I'm advocating the concept that the quad is not dead.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Agent, Bing [Bot] and 16 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos