T54A
Topic Author
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Is there a problem with Boeing’s engineering team?

Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:29 am

In simple terms:

B787 was launched with electrical issues that resulted in a fleet grounding.

KC46 has been a nightmare of program which is way behind schedule.

B748 had horizontal stab flutter which led to stab tank been locked out.

B737 Max problems as discussed at length.

What is going on with Boeing's engineering team. Has cost cutting led to these design flaws?
T6, Allouette 3, Oryx, King Air, B1900, B727, B744, A319, A342/3/6 A332/3
 
invertalon
Posts: 43
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Re: Is there a problem with Boeing’s engineering team?

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:48 pm

As someone who works in the aerospace industry as a mechanical engineer, people would be surprised just how long it takes to do ANYTHING in regards to flight articles. Paperwork, qualification tests, rigorous design reviews, etc... I don't know about Boeing in particular (I work on things destined to be outside of our planet), but the aerospace companies are all very similar... NASA, Space X, Boeing, etc...

It's just the complexity of the entire aircraft. Mechanical, electrical, control systems, thermodynamics, acoustics, structural, etc... All working together, back and forth, to a final design. Constant design reviews, testing, tweaks and optimizations. One change in one group often affects the other groups. It's a complicated balance. This is why these programs are almost always delayed. You always run into things you won't expect, especially during testing which is why we do them.

You can have the best people in the world, with unlimited resources working on a new aircraft for however long they need. But still, there will be something unexpected occur that needs to be adjusted/corrected/etc... It's a never ending cycle. You can't possibly find every little thing that can go wrong until it's been flown.

Just my perspective, though. I have no doubt at all that Boeing did absolutely everything they could and stand behind the MAX and the other aircraft they have produced. Things come up though, sometimes as a result of loss of life unfortunately, in order for the issue to become visible and the proper corrections can be made.
 
WIederling
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Re: Is there a problem with Boeing’s engineering team?

Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:23 pm

invertalon wrote:
Just my perspective, though. I have no doubt at all that Boeing did absolutely everything they could and stand behind the MAX and the other aircraft they have produced. Things come up though, sometimes as a result of loss of life unfortunately, in order for the issue to become visible and the proper corrections can be made.


With access to the (internal) design documentation
all the upcoming issues would have been shallow to any competent engineer.

Ergo Boeing did not do everything to avoid these issues.
What they did is work hard to obscure these issues
that were created by cutting corners and playing with their FAA toy.
Murphy is an optimist
 
buzzard302
Posts: 152
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Re: Is there a problem with Boeing’s engineering team?

Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:18 pm

WIederling wrote:
invertalon wrote:
Just my perspective, though. I have no doubt at all that Boeing did absolutely everything they could and stand behind the MAX and the other aircraft they have produced. Things come up though, sometimes as a result of loss of life unfortunately, in order for the issue to become visible and the proper corrections can be made.


With access to the (internal) design documentation
all the upcoming issues would have been shallow to any competent engineer.

Ergo Boeing did not do everything to avoid these issues.
What they did is work hard to obscure these issues
that were created by cutting corners and playing with their FAA toy.


You know this how? As an engineer, there are plenty of times designs get tested, reviewed, and tested again without observing issues. After something is in service for an extended period of time, issues can be exposed. Highly knowledgeable engineers do not participate in corner cutting or risking their PE license. It would be risking their entire livelihood and career by knowingly cheating on something. Could testing have been more rigorous? Likely yes. But I would not place sole blame on the engineers.
 
LH707330
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Re: Is there a problem with Boeing’s engineering team?

Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:22 pm

I think this is a bit overblown. Of those examples:

787: new battery tech, difficult to diagnose failure mode, things happen with new hardware
KC46: I'm sure a large part of this is due to military procurement nonsense
748 stab tank: problem, but not a p1 adoption blocker, LH was able to live with it and probably got some compensation
MAX: likely a mix of suboptimal design and a poor job of training crews on the differences. The fix will likely involve an MCAS revision and better training

Of those, I'd say the 787 and 748 issues were just unfortunate bugs, the MAX potentially corner-cutting with the system design and poor internal communication. There are some other ones in the past from a range of manufacturers:

A380: CATIA version error, 2 years delay to rewire
A346: overweight, payload hits for early deliveries
PW4098: 4% SFC miss
GE90 v1: many teething issues
A342/343: drag and flutter problems, required numerous pylon, plastron, and nacelle strake tweaks to make it work
MD-11: cheap budget > small tail, old wing, LG load paths > poor performance on bad approaches, arguably a UX bug
A320: WoW logic (LH Warsaw crash), FPA/VS mode (arguably a UX bug)
737: rudder issues
RB211: hyfil blade problem
DC10: hydraulic design/redundancy
L188: whirl mode
Comet: fatigue

The bottom line is that many OEMs in the space have had their fair share of black eyes. Arguably the DC10 was a case of corner cutting and the 787/380 cases of serious project management derpage, but most of the rest seem to have been cases of "shit happens," not necessarily negligent engineering. You make new things, sometimes they break in unforeseen ways.
 
T54A
Topic Author
Posts: 217
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Re: Is there a problem with Boeing’s engineering team?

Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:25 pm

invertalon wrote:
As someone who works in the aerospace industry as a mechanical engineer, people would be surprised just how long it takes to do ANYTHING in regards to flight articles. Paperwork, qualification tests, rigorous design reviews, etc... I don't know about Boeing in particular (I work on things destined to be outside of our planet), but the aerospace companies are all very similar... NASA, Space X, Boeing, etc...

It's just the complexity of the entire aircraft. Mechanical, electrical, control systems, thermodynamics, acoustics, structural, etc... All working together, back and forth, to a final design. Constant design reviews, testing, tweaks and optimizations. One change in one group often affects the other groups. It's a complicated balance. This is why these programs are almost always delayed. You always run into things you won't expect, especially during testing which is why we do them.

You can have the best people in the world, with unlimited resources working on a new aircraft for however long they need. But still, there will be something unexpected occur that needs to be adjusted/corrected/etc... It's a never ending cycle. You can't possibly find every little thing that can go wrong until it's been flown.

Just my perspective, though. I have no doubt at all that Boeing did absolutely everything they could and stand behind the MAX and the other aircraft they have produced. Things come up though, sometimes as a result of loss of life unfortunately, in order for the issue to become visible and the proper corrections can be made.


As a pilot who has flown the magnificent B727 and B747 I would like to agree, but something says to me that there is a corporate culture problem at Boeing that has led to all these big program failures.
T6, Allouette 3, Oryx, King Air, B1900, B727, B744, A319, A342/3/6 A332/3
 
T54A
Topic Author
Posts: 217
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Re: Is there a problem with Boeing’s engineering team?

Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:29 pm

LH707330 wrote:
I think this is a bit overblown. Of those examples:

787: new battery tech, difficult to diagnose failure mode, things happen with new hardware
KC46: I'm sure a large part of this is due to military procurement nonsense
748 stab tank: problem, but not a p1 adoption blocker, LH was able to live with it and probably got some compensation
MAX: likely a mix of suboptimal design and a poor job of training crews on the differences. The fix will likely involve an MCAS revision and better training

Of those, I'd say the 787 and 748 issues were just unfortunate bugs, the MAX potentially corner-cutting with the system design and poor internal communication. There are some other ones in the past from a range of manufacturers:

A380: CATIA version error, 2 years delay to rewire
A346: overweight, payload hits for early deliveries
PW4098: 4% SFC miss
GE90 v1: many teething issues
A342/343: drag and flutter problems, required numerous pylon, plastron, and nacelle strake tweaks to make it work
MD-11: cheap budget > small tail, old wing, LG load paths > poor performance on bad approaches, arguably a UX bug
A320: WoW logic (LH Warsaw crash), FPA/VS mode (arguably a UX bug)
737: rudder issues
RB211: hyfil blade problem
DC10: hydraulic design/redundancy
L188: whirl mode
Comet: fatigue

The bottom line is that many OEMs in the space have had their fair share of black eyes. Arguably the DC10 was a case of corner cutting and the 787/380 cases of serious project management derpage, but most of the rest seem to have been cases of "shit happens," not necessarily negligent engineering. You make new things, sometimes they break in unforeseen ways.



Thanks for the post. This is the info I was hoping to get. Is Boeing dealing with a ‘Black Swan’ event, or are there genuine problems with the company?
T6, Allouette 3, Oryx, King Air, B1900, B727, B744, A319, A342/3/6 A332/3
 
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akiss20
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Re: Is there a problem with Boeing’s engineering team?

Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:38 pm

I wouldn't be at all surprised if in 50 years some old engineer writes a tell-all about how they raised concerns to management and those concerns were promptly ignored. Management of large engineering projects have long histories of ignoring on the ground engineers for the sake of meeting some goal sent down from upon high (e.g. Challenger...)
Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are
 
stratclub
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Re: Is there a problem with Boeing’s engineering team?

Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:43 pm

More likely a problem with decisions and policies by upper management. The 787 is a great example of bungled management. The 787 could have been developed in house for say $10B, but the decision makers at Boeing had this fairy tale that by off loading as much of the engineering and production as possible they could slash development cost.

Alan Mulally was instructed to apply the fairy tale to the development and production process and bring development in at 1/2 that cost and that is when he quit and went to work for Ford. The final development cost turned out to be $32B. That doesn't include cost from production delays. https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenni ... 288f917b1b

With the tankers, let's just say that when faced with poor management and confusion, Boeing has always applied the philosophy that if a man and a woman took 9 months to make a baby, 10 men and a woman should be able to make a baby in a month.

On the first few tankers there would be many people that would come to work be given a job and told go see if they can work this job. So you would get your parts, go out to the aircraft and find that the parts you were trying to install could not be installed yet because what they were mounted to is not installed yet.

Another problem was that if a job wasn't completed at the scheduled point of the production process some one had to chase the job down the line and many times you would have to wait for someone to complete a job scheduled later than your "traveled" job so you could remove there parts to perform your job and then reinstall the parts that were in the way of you completing your job. This has always been true for all Boeing production programs to an extent although the older Boeing program usually don't travel nearly as much work as the newer programs.
 
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crimsonchin
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Re: Is there a problem with Boeing’s engineering team?

Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:54 pm

They get it right more often that not, so I'd say no (or at least not yet).
 
stratclub
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Re: Is there a problem with Boeing’s engineering team?

Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:56 pm

In the end it seems they ALWAYS get it right, but it seems like getting it wrong is part of the learning process. These days, the 787 certainly is a popular product but there was certainly a major amount of getting it wrong and learning from mistakes in the path to getting it right.

Being that the first 5 787 aircraft were not able to be delivered to customers for various build issues tells volumes. The first 737 ended up at NASA as a test bed. Not 100% sure, but I think 737 airplane 2 was the first delivery airplane.
 
Max Q
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Re: Is there a problem with Boeing’s engineering team?

Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:13 pm

It’s interesting that with all the computing power, advanced design and manufacturing techniques in use today that Boeing seems to be developing glitchy aircraft that go in to service with problems that weren’t uncovered in flight test, and it takes them much longer to get from concept to a mature product than the old days


The 737 Max was a fairly radical change from the NG but contrast that with the design, development
and entry into service of the magnificent 747, less than five years from concept to first flight


And that was an epically more complex project
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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zeke
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Re: Is there a problem with Boeing’s engineering team?

Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:16 pm

T54A wrote:
Thanks for the post. This is the info I was hoping to get. Is Boeing dealing with a ‘Black Swan’ event, or are there genuine problems with the company?


I don’t think there is a problem, apart from Boeing and Airbus making it look so easy from the outside to develop and certify aircraft.

In reality developing aircraft is a very complex process. So complex it is very difficult even fir those with tremendous state support cannot achieve (eg CAAC).
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7BOEING7
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Re: Is there a problem with Boeing’s engineering team?

Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:54 am

stratclub wrote:
More likely a problem with decisions and policies by upper management. The 787 is a great example of bungled management. The 787 could have been developed in house for say $10B, but the decision makers at Boeing had this fairy tale that by off loading as much of the engineering and production as possible they could slash development cost.

Alan Mulally was instructed to apply the fairy tale to the development and production process and bring development in at 1/2 that cost and that is when he quit and went to work for Ford. The final development cost turned out to be $32B. That doesn't include cost from production delays.


IMHO, Alan (never take no for an answer) Mulally was "upper management" and the only guidance he would have had (if any) was how much it could cost. He and "the people that always said yes" invented the fairy tail and some of it sounded good to us, some of it we just shook out heads and laughed. He left the company when he was passed over for CEO twice.
 
LH707330
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Re: Is there a problem with Boeing’s engineering team?

Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:17 am

T54A wrote:
Thanks for the post. This is the info I was hoping to get. Is Boeing dealing with a ‘Black Swan’ event, or are there genuine problems with the company?


Nobody knows for sure yet, but based on the preliminary findings of the Lion Air crash, my assessment is as follows:

1. The MCAS system feeding from only one sensor is suboptimal from a design standpoint, and would have been better off from a safety and reliability standpoint using three alpha vanes with a voting system. Why they didn't do that could be one of the following:

a. There was pressure to cut costs/time/scope and some people thought it was a bad idea at the time
b. Cert requirements precluded addition of another alpha vane without losing a substantial amount of grandfathering
c. The designers thought that failures were rare enough, and the system non-critical enough, that beefing it up was not worth it
d. something else

a. points to a culture problem (beancounters vs engineers), b. is an unfortunate constraint, and c. seems potentially reasonable and they just got unlucky. I don't have access to any of their engineering studies, so this is pure speculation on my part, and I'm not going to stack my chips on one of these.

2. MCAS was not well explained to pilots (IINM it's not even in the POH). There seem to be a big number of people who were surprised after the Lion Air crash, so this is an area where I think Boeing could improve. To their credit, they were pretty quick in addressing this after that crash, and probably followed up internally to assess how to improve the process moving forward. There are a range of possibilities here as well:

a. The capability was designed during flight test and didn't make it into the pilot curricula
b. MCAS was deemed un-intrusive enough that Boeing didn't think it needed too much attention because it's too far in the weeds (it's not like they require pilots to know exactly how each of the FBW laws work)
c. They wanted to pitch as much similarity as possible to compete with the FBW neo, and hence kept it off people's radar

a. I would categorize as a preventable goof that should lead to process improvement, b. seems reasonable in context and it bit them, and c. points to culture.

As with #1, I don't want to speculate on what the exact reasons for the decisions were, but I'm sure it'll get addressed, and lessons will be learned and applied. Long story short, there's a possibility that there are some cultural problems, but with the information available now, there are also plenty of plausible alternatives, and the answer to the OP should thus be "maybe there's a problem, we don't know yet, grab a beer, and wait for the report."
 
BoeingGuy
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Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: Is there a problem with Boeing’s engineering team?

Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:10 am

WIederling wrote:
invertalon wrote:
Just my perspective, though. I have no doubt at all that Boeing did absolutely everything they could and stand behind the MAX and the other aircraft they have produced. Things come up though, sometimes as a result of loss of life unfortunately, in order for the issue to become visible and the proper corrections can be made.


With access to the (internal) design documentation
all the upcoming issues would have been shallow to any competent engineer.

Ergo Boeing did not do everything to avoid these issues.
What they did is work hard to obscure these issues
that were created by cutting corners and playing with their FAA toy.


Really insulting reply. Plus I have no idea what you mean about the shallow engineer.

The FAA is hardly a toy. The FAA is up Boeing’s rear on everything. I line it sometimes. Your comment is the only shallow thing here.

But I know from experience, most of your posts are anti-Boeing.
 
BoeingGuy
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Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: Is there a problem with Boeing’s engineering team?

Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:17 am

LH707330 wrote:
T54A wrote:
Thanks for the post. This is the info I was hoping to get. Is Boeing dealing with a ‘Black Swan’ event, or are there genuine problems with the company?


Nobody knows for sure yet, but based on the preliminary findings of the Lion Air crash, my assessment is as follows:

1. The MCAS system feeding from only one sensor is suboptimal from a design standpoint, and would have been better off from a safety and reliability standpoint using three alpha vanes with a voting system. Why they didn't do that could be one of the following:

a. There was pressure to cut costs/time/scope and some people thought it was a bad idea at the time
b. Cert requirements precluded addition of another alpha vane without losing a substantial amount of grandfathering
c. The designers thought that failures were rare enough, and the system non-critical enough, that beefing it up was not worth it
d. something else

a. points to a culture problem (beancounters vs engineers), b. is an unfortunate constraint, and c. seems potentially reasonable and they just got unlucky. I don't have access to any of their engineering studies, so this is pure speculation on my part, and I'm not going to stack my chips on one of these.

2. MCAS was not well explained to pilots (IINM it's not even in the POH). There seem to be a big number of people who were surprised after the Lion Air crash, so this is an area where I think Boeing could improve. To their credit, they were pretty quick in addressing this after that crash, and probably followed up internally to assess how to improve the process moving forward. There are a range of possibilities here as well:

a. The capability was designed during flight test and didn't make it into the pilot curricula
b. MCAS was deemed un-intrusive enough that Boeing didn't think it needed too much attention because it's too far in the weeds (it's not like they require pilots to know exactly how each of the FBW laws work)
c. They wanted to pitch as much similarity as possible to compete with the FBW neo, and hence kept it off people's radar

a. I would categorize as a preventable goof that should lead to process improvement, b. seems reasonable in context and it bit them, and c. points to culture.

As with #1, I don't want to speculate on what the exact reasons for the decisions were, but I'm sure it'll get addressed, and lessons will be learned and applied. Long story short, there's a possibility that there are some cultural problems, but with the information available now, there are also plenty of plausible alternatives, and the answer to the OP should thus be "maybe there's a problem, we don't know yet, grab a beer, and wait for the report."


Nice post. Your points are very insightful.9

I don’t know the history of what happened, but I sometimes shutter at the damage Jim McSlimeball did to Boeing. Sure the God Almighty stock price rose, but when is the last time a civil or military program was on time, on budget and didn’t have problems? It started with Phil Condit. Constant short-sighted cost decisions that cost way more in the long run.
 
tealnz
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Re: Is there a problem with Boeing’s engineering team?

Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:33 pm

akiss20 wrote:
I wouldn't be at all surprised if in 50 years some old engineer writes a tell-all about how they raised concerns to management and those concerns were promptly ignored. Management of large engineering projects have long histories of ignoring on the ground engineers for the sake of meeting some goal sent down from upon high (e.g. Challenger...)

It smells just like the Challenger story. But I think the truth will come out much sooner than 50 years: there must be engineers who are feeling sick to their stomachs about being overridden by the suits and the sales guys and are now desperate want to tell their side of the story.

stratclub wrote:
More likely a problem with decisions and policies by upper management. The 787 is a great example of bungled management. The 787 could have been developed in house for say $10B, but the decision makers at Boeing had this fairy tale that by off loading as much of the engineering and production as possible they could slash development cost.

Yep. The same phenomenon. Once the full story comes out there will be some big-name departures from the C-suite. The eventual impact on the share price – which drove decisions to cut corners on engineering – will see to that.
 
LH707330
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Re: Is there a problem with Boeing’s engineering team?

Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:55 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:

Nice post. Your points are very insightful.9

I don’t know the history of what happened, but I sometimes shutter at the damage Jim McSlimeball did to Boeing. Sure the God Almighty stock price rose, but when is the last time a civil or military program was on time, on budget and didn’t have problems? It started with Phil Condit. Constant short-sighted cost decisions that cost way more in the long run.


Thanks. From my friends who work at Boeing, some things have improved, but there was a lot of damage done during that time in search of shortsighted gains.

Also, you coming to lunch on the 30th?
 
stratclub
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Re: Is there a problem with Boeing’s engineering team?

Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:48 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
WIederling wrote:
invertalon wrote:
Just my perspective, though. I have no doubt at all that Boeing did absolutely everything they could and stand behind the MAX and the other aircraft they have produced. Things come up though, sometimes as a result of loss of life unfortunately, in order for the issue to become visible and the proper corrections can be made.


With access to the (internal) design documentation
all the upcoming issues would have been shallow to any competent engineer.

Ergo Boeing did not do everything to avoid these issues.
What they did is work hard to obscure these issues
that were created by cutting corners and playing with their FAA toy.


Really insulting reply. Plus I have no idea what you mean about the shallow engineer.

The FAA is hardly a toy. The FAA is up Boeing’s rear on everything. I line it sometimes. Your comment is the only shallow thing here.

But I know from experience, most of your posts are anti-Boeing.


BoeingGuy, Amen to that. WIederling is just another person that thinks that these kind of things need to be prosecuted in the court of Facebook were "feelings" and delegating blame are more important than actual verified facts.
 
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Faro
Posts: 1910
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Re: Is there a problem with Boeing’s engineering team?

Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:11 am

LH707330 wrote:
I think this is a bit overblown. Of those examples:

787: new battery tech, difficult to diagnose failure mode, things happen with new hardware
KC46: I'm sure a large part of this is due to military procurement nonsense
748 stab tank: problem, but not a p1 adoption blocker, LH was able to live with it and probably got some compensation
MAX: likely a mix of suboptimal design and a poor job of training crews on the differences. The fix will likely involve an MCAS revision and better training

Of those, I'd say the 787 and 748 issues were just unfortunate bugs, the MAX potentially corner-cutting with the system design and poor internal communication. There are some other ones in the past from a range of manufacturers:

A380: CATIA version error, 2 years delay to rewire
A346: overweight, payload hits for early deliveries
PW4098: 4% SFC miss
GE90 v1: many teething issues
A342/343: drag and flutter problems, required numerous pylon, plastron, and nacelle strake tweaks to make it work
MD-11: cheap budget > small tail, old wing, LG load paths > poor performance on bad approaches, arguably a UX bug
A320: WoW logic (LH Warsaw crash), FPA/VS mode (arguably a UX bug)
737: rudder issues
RB211: hyfil blade problem
DC10: hydraulic design/redundancy
L188: whirl mode
Comet: fatigue

The bottom line is that many OEMs in the space have had their fair share of black eyes. Arguably the DC10 was a case of corner cutting and the 787/380 cases of serious project management derpage, but most of the rest seem to have been cases of "shit happens," not necessarily negligent engineering. You make new things, sometimes they break in unforeseen ways.




:checkmark: :checkmark:

And don't forget that it's the likes of WN and FR who are also at the origin of the 737 being developed into so many new sub-types, so that they can basically continue to fly the same, grandfathered frame forever and keep their cost base low.

Had WN wanted a totally new short-haul frame instead of the NG or the MAX, they would have got it...


Faro
The chalice not my son
 
stratclub
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Re: Is there a problem with Boeing’s engineering team?

Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:20 am

Completely wrong use of the term grandfathering. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_clause
 
WIederling
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Re: Is there a problem with Boeing’s engineering team?

Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:41 pm

stratclub wrote:
Completely wrong use of the term grandfathering. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_clause


Do you complain about the description on Wikipedia or the use here?
Keep in mind that the English language has a thing for domain specific redefinitions.
Murphy is an optimist
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Is there a problem with Boeing’s engineering team?

Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:38 pm

stratclub wrote:
Completely wrong use of the term grandfathering. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_clause


Specifically what occurs is that the manufacturer and the FAA negotiate the certification basis for each FAR. In the case of a derivative model, they may agree to keep an older certication basis for a given FAR if nothing was significantly changed.

For example, the KC-46 and 777X have to comply with CFR 25.1322 amendment 131 for Crew Alerting. The 737 Max was held to a previous amendment. Boeing, the FAA and EASA and other cert authorities agreed to this.
 
acjbbj
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Re: Is there a problem with Boeing’s engineering team?

Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:45 pm

WIederling wrote:
invertalon wrote:
Just my perspective, though. I have no doubt at all that Boeing did absolutely everything they could and stand behind the MAX and the other aircraft they have produced. Things come up though, sometimes as a result of loss of life unfortunately, in order for the issue to become visible and the proper corrections can be made.


With access to the (internal) design documentation
all the upcoming issues would have been shallow to any competent engineer.

Ergo Boeing did not do everything to avoid these issues.
What they did is work hard to obscure these issues
that were created by cutting corners and playing with their FAA toy.


Post History checks out.
Douglas Aircraft Company
Born: 22 July 1921 (Santa Monica, CA)
Died: 23 May 2006 (Long Beach, CA), age 84 years 10 months 1 day
You will be missed.
 
stratclub
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Re: Is there a problem with Boeing’s engineering team?

Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:08 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
stratclub wrote:
Completely wrong use of the term grandfathering. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_clause


Specifically what occurs is that the manufacturer and the FAA negotiate the certification basis for each FAR. In the case of a derivative model, they may agree to keep an older certication basis for a given FAR if nothing was significantly changed.

For example, the KC-46 and 777X have to comply with CFR 25.1322 amendment 131 for Crew Alerting. The 737 Max was held to a previous amendment. Boeing, the FAA and EASA and other cert authorities agreed to this.

Thank you for the non troll answer. :bigthumbsup:
 
stratclub
Posts: 1342
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:38 pm

Re: Is there a problem with Boeing’s engineering team?

Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:14 pm

WIederling wrote:
stratclub wrote:
Completely wrong use of the term grandfathering. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_clause


Do you complain about the description on Wikipedia or the use here?
Keep in mind that the English language has a thing for domain specific redefinitions.

No. I'm complaining about the wrong use of the term describing aspects of aircraft certification. Using the term Makes an implication that is incorrect for the subject of this thread.
 
Sokes
Posts: 222
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Is there a problem with Boeing’s engineering team?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:56 am

" Is there a problem with Boeing's engineer team? "

Is there a problem with Boeing's management team?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
WIederling
Posts: 8694
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Is there a problem with Boeing’s engineering team?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:41 am

Sokes wrote:
" Is there a problem with Boeing's engineer team? "

Is there a problem with Boeing's management team?


Both are good at things that are essentially detrimental to producing good hardware.
i.e. sophist circumvention of certification baselines to keep up with the Joneses
without actually matching or even besting those.

Too much weight placed on competing in Borgia Space.
Murphy is an optimist
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6311
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: Is there a problem with Boeing’s engineering team?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:20 pm

WIederling wrote:
Sokes wrote:
" Is there a problem with Boeing's engineer team? "

Is there a problem with Boeing's management team?


Both are good at things that are essentially detrimental to producing good hardware.
i.e. sophist circumvention of certification baselines to keep up with the Joneses
without actually matching or even besting those.

Too much weight placed on competing in Borgia Space.


That’s really not correct at all. I don’t know what occurred with MCAS, but I’ve never seen an engineer cut corners or circumvent certification baselines.

You make all these anti-Boeing comments, but you really have no idea what you are talking about.

Please tell us your credentials to be posting such criticism of Boeing engineers. Please educate us on how certification baselines work and how engineers are circumventing them.
 
stratclub
Posts: 1342
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:38 pm

Re: Is there a problem with Boeing’s engineering team?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:27 am

Thanks for that thought. This is a forum dedicated to plane spotters for the most part. So really you get people that have a professional view of things to people that to them verifiable facts are irrelevant and everything is about feelings and has to be proven in the courts of social media.That being said, there are some really sharp people that post here and sometimes you have to just put on your BS filter. :biggrin:
 
T54A
Topic Author
Posts: 217
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 11:47 am

Re: Is there a problem with Boeing’s engineering team?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:33 am

Sokes wrote:
" Is there a problem with Boeing's engineer team? "

Is there a problem with Boeing's management team?


That’s maybe where my thinking was going. How did a company that produced such great machines in the past, get the last four projects wrong to a greater or smaller degree. Did pressure from Airbus, Bombadier, Embraer etc lead to commercial management putting the engineering team under unreasonable pressure? The quality of the opposition has clearly improved over the decades.
T6, Allouette 3, Oryx, King Air, B1900, B727, B744, A319, A342/3/6 A332/3
 
kalvado
Posts: 1879
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Is there a problem with Boeing’s engineering team?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:32 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
That’s really not correct at all. I don’t know what occurred with MCAS, but I’ve never seen an engineer deliberately cut corners or circumvent certification baselines.

You make all these anti-Boeing comments, but you really have no idea what you are talking about.

Please tell us your credentials to be posting such criticism of Boeing engineers. Please educate us on how certification baselines work and how engineers are circumventing them.

Fixed a missing word for you.
Actually recalling some recent posts about engineering workforce becoming project force instead of company force, hired and let go on as-needed basis, I wonder how much institutional knowledge is still there.
And that can be an issue, especially when dealing with old designs, as it is often not so obvious why things were done in a certain way. I wonder, how many of those working on NG design were in MAX development team? Age wise, 26 years ago should mean there would be at least some people can still be with the company.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 3509
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: Is there a problem with Boeing’s engineering team?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:01 pm

Nothing wrong with this group, other thna the heavy hand of the Senior Leadership Teams that only can see their bonuses evaporating.

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