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WPvsMW
Posts: 2252
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: MAX certification: new systemic issues identified

Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:48 am

Typo: ... after the JT610 crash.
 
BravoOne
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Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: MAX certification: new systemic issues identified

Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:48 pm

"I am also aware that some years ago full stall training was omitted from normal training in transport category aircraft because it was deemed too dangerous."

I cannot recall ever doing "full stall" training in any transport category aircraft, either in the airplane, or a Level C, or D, FFS, and I have been training since the early 707 days thru the 787. That is about to change with the introduction of UPRT/EET. The closest I have come to a full stall event, was in the MD11, with a MD test pilot in the right seat, and even then it was nothing like the new UPRT training that has just become effective this month.
 
747Whale
Posts: 725
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Re: MAX certification: new systemic issues identified

Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:05 pm

UPRT/EET = Upset-Recovery training, and extended envelope training.

Full stall training in light aircraft was done in multi engine, including engine-out conditions, and that was discontinued a number of years ago due to numerous departures and a mishap rate greater in training than in the field.

That's light aircraft, however, and not transport category equipment. The emphasis has been on stall recognition and avoidance. Given the potential for a long, extended recovery in a deep stall condition in transport category equipment, some taking 15,000 or more to recover, emphasis on not going there in the first place is prudent.
 
BravoOne
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Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: MAX certification: new systemic issues identified

Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:43 pm

747Whale wrote:
UPRT/EET = Upset-Recovery training, and extended envelope training.

Full stall training in light aircraft was done in multi engine, including engine-out conditions, and that was discontinued a number of years ago due to numerous departures and a mishap rate greater in training than in the field.

That's light aircraft, however, and not transport category equipment. The emphasis has been on stall recognition and avoidance. Given the potential for a long, extended recovery in a deep stall condition in transport category equipment, some taking 15,000 or more to recover, emphasis on not going there in the first place is prudent.



There you go again, confusing some of these poster with the facts.:)
 
HaulSudson
Posts: 101
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:02 pm

Re: MAX certification: new systemic issues identified

Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:58 am

747Whale wrote:
tealnz wrote:
tealnz wrote:
The pilot failure theory still has to account for the fact that the ET pilots had been trained on MCAS and cutoff procedure.


No, they hadn't.

They should have known the trim cutoff procedure, however, which works for disabling MCAS.




It's in the news that ET pilots were trained and even used the trim cutoff procedure to disable the MCAS.


If confirmed, you might need a new reason to blame the pilots and spin the attention away from the systemic issues identified on the 737Max.
 
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hilram
Posts: 754
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:12 am

Re: MAX certification: new systemic issues identified

Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:19 pm

"ET302 used the Cut-Out switches to stop MCAS"
https://leehamnews.com/

Time for some Apologists to eat Crow, and stop being condescending towards the late Ethiopian crew. :tombstone:
Flown on: A319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 343 | B732, 734, 735, 736, 73G, 738, 743, 744, 772, 77W | CRJ9 | BAe-146 | DHC-6, 7, 8 | F50 | E195 | MD DC-9 41, MD-82, MD-87
 
stephanwintner
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:04 pm

Re: MAX certification: new systemic issues identified

Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:43 pm

hilram wrote:
"ET302 used the Cut-Out switches to stop MCAS"
https://leehamnews.com/

Time for some Apologists to eat Crow, and stop being condescending towards the late Ethiopian crew. :tombstone:


Also posted here : https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ne-457224/

As disturbing as that column is, do you really think that's the final word? All details included, no doubts left, no stone unturned ? Far as I'm concerned that column raises more questions than it answers. (Flight did choose a suitable title.)

For a start, I wonder why one would ever design a system where the trim max is so far out that the elevator cannot overcome it. That Flight column claims it is so, but it seems to me I'd pick the mechanical max travel limit for the trim trim based on ensuring trim authority is less than elevator authority.

Still, certainly raises some hard questions for Boeing, and for the DERs who signed off.
 
WPvsMW
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Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: MAX certification: new systemic issues identified

Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:13 pm

Both DERs and DARs. With the FBI involved, "who knew what when", and any gatekeeping, are going to be under a microscope.
 
ODwyerPW
Posts: 1624
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:30 am

Re: MAX certification: new systemic issues identified

Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:18 pm

OldAeroGuy, WIederling, Amiga500 and a few others.. .thank you for the informative discussion. I learned quite a bit. Thanks for taking the time to explain, expound and clarify.
learning never stops.
 
WIederling
Posts: 9583
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: MAX certification: new systemic issues identified

Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:24 pm

stratclub wrote:
Who is this "we" you referred to? You and your cat, perhaps?

Just to come back on this:
Actually it is I, my Eustace and the majority of posters in this thread.
Murphy is an optimist

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