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richiemo
Topic Author
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No more LAX loop on departures

Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:44 pm

Gang, frequent reviews of flightaware.com at LAX suggests that they don't do the LAX loop anymore on departures. For years you would depart over the pacific, then do a 180 and head back over the airport (assuming you were heading back east of course).That was always the deal when I'd fly back to EWR. But now it appears all flights head down south and turn east down near Long Beach. Sad if so, as there was no better sight-seeing on a clear day than the LAX loop.
 
Redbellyguppy
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Re: No more LAX loop on departures

Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:47 pm

I disagree. I flew it the other day.
 
OKCDCA
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Re: No more LAX loop on departures

Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:50 pm

I don’t think it’s gone. Looking at FlightAware just now, UA 2418 (EWR) and DL 1503 (DEN) are performing the loop this morning. But B6 224 (JFK) took the more southerly route. Must be based on what ATC feels is best.
 
mcdu
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Re: No more LAX loop on departures

Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:27 pm

It’s been renamed. Think it’s the Orca now. Just a heading after T/O and a vector back to cross the LAX VOR.
 
Cactusjuba
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Re: No more LAX loop on departures

Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:27 pm

It's now called the ORKA departure. Any routing that takes you Northwesterly/over LAS you get this routing. Westerly courses/ over PSP usually get the DOTTS departure, which heads over the water and makes landfall over Seal Beach.
 
phllax
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Re: No more LAX loop on departures

Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:08 pm

OKCDCA wrote:
I don’t think it’s gone. Looking at FlightAware just now, UA 2418 (EWR) and DL 1503 (DEN) are performing the loop this morning. But B6 224 (JFK) took the more southerly route. Must be based on what ATC feels is best.


I've been flying US/AA and B6 321's out of LAX since US began sending them in 2001, and in that time I've only had 1 US 321 able to do the Loop, and it struggled on climb power to get to the 10,000 ft threshold needed to cross the beach after the turn that he threw it back to T/O setting for about 30 seconds. (I asked after we landed.)
 
mtnwest1979
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Re: No more LAX loop on departures

Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:10 pm

Cactusjuba wrote:
It's now called the ORKA departure. Any routing that takes you Northwesterly/over LAS you get this routing. Westerly courses/ over PSP usually get the DOTTS departure, which heads over the water and makes landfall over Seal Beach.


You mean northeasterly and easterly, I assume... ;)
Riddle: Which lasts longer, a start-up airline or a start-up football league?
 
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Acey
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Re: No more LAX loop on departures

Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:22 pm

It's the ORCKA departure, since nobody spelled it right yet: https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1903/00237ORCKA.PDF
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
fly4ever78
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Re: No more LAX loop on departures

Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:22 pm

phllax wrote:
I've been flying US/AA and B6 321's out of LAX since US began sending them in 2001, and in that time I've only had 1 US 321 able to do the Loop, and it struggled on climb power to get to the 10,000 ft threshold needed to cross the beach after the turn that he threw it back to T/O setting for about 30 seconds. (I asked after we landed.)


One of the fixes on the DOTSS departure requires at or above 15000 and that can also be difficult for the 737-900 and even the -800 if going to the East Coast fully loaded. Many times speed needs to be limited or the plane hand flown to make the restriction.
 
TW870
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Re: No more LAX loop on departures

Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:35 pm

It might be an issue of when you were looking at flightradar24. As others have said, heavy aircraft with limited climb performance are usually given the Seal Beach departure since they can't cross LAX at altitudes high enough to avoid descending inbound traffic. The southward path provides a longer distance over which the airplane can climb. The departures have gotten renamed with the RNAV procedures becoming standard, but I think traffic flows similarly to what it did in the past. I certainly did what would have been called the LOOP departure a few weeks back in a DL 753 from LAX-ATL.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: No more LAX loop on departures

Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:45 pm

Renamed, but certainly used every day. I see planes on it up to the A380.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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Acey
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Re: No more LAX loop on departures

Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:54 pm

Here's a 77L doing it a couple days ago, just a quick hop over to YYZ, so child's play for those engines no doubt: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/ACA ... /KLAX/CYYZ
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
atcdan
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Re: No more LAX loop on departures

Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:03 pm

As previously stated it’s the ORCKA DP, aircraft must be able to cross over LAX at 10,000 MSL within 20 flying miles of taking off. Most A321s and even some other types aren’t able to do it because of climb performance.

As also previously stated it’s used for aircraft headed east and northeast, but many east coast departures will file a more southern routing due to weather /winds, etc. ATC doesn’t dictate which route is used, it’s up to the airline and the dispatcher. Also, the ORCKA DP is subject to noise abatement procedures so is only used between 0700-2100 lcl.

Cheers, Dan
Tower Controller
VNY, DFW, LAX
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DoctorVenkman
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Re: No more LAX loop on departures

Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:09 pm

I've flown LAX-EWR twice recently, and both times we took the southern loop instead of the northern one. One flight was a 752 and the other was a 78J, both of which should have been more than capable enough to make the climb on the northern loop.
 
BAINY3
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Re: No more LAX loop on departures

Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:16 pm

It looks like departures to the Northeast/LAS/etc will use ORCKA when able, or OSHNN as a backup only when they can't meet the performance requirements for ORCKA. DOTSS is more for easterly departures. So the difference between ORCKA and DOTSS is more likely based on destination; planes that would like to use ORCKA to head northeast but can't climb fast enough will use OSHNN.
 
strfyr51
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Re: No more LAX loop on departures

Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:21 pm

[quote="OKCDCA"]I don’t think it’s gone. Looking at FlightAware just now, UA 2418 (EWR) and DL 1503 (DEN) are performing the loop this morning. But B6 224 (JFK) took the more southerly route. Must be based on what ATC feels is best.[/
Or? It could be just up to departure control to reduce area congestion.
 
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Johnv707
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Re: No more LAX loop on departures

Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:32 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
OKCDCA wrote:
I don’t think it’s gone. Looking at FlightAware just now, UA 2418 (EWR) and DL 1503 (DEN) are performing the loop this morning. But B6 224 (JFK) took the more southerly route. Must be based on what ATC feels is best.[/
Or? It could be just up to departure control to reduce area congestion.



As a former ATC at LAX Departure Control we would time the 180 turn back to the LAX VOR based on the climb rate we were observing on the flight. So a slow climber would be taken a mile or two further over the ocean before being turned back. We would occasionally have to give another vector if it looked like the crossing restriction would not be met. Worst case, a quick call to the next controller to get a variance on the restriction would always take care of any issues. But we would NEVER change the SID mid flight.
Last edited by Johnv707 on Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
russyyz
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Re: No more LAX loop on departures

Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:33 pm

I love the names ATC areas use for various SIDS and STARS. I would have thought, though, that the ORCKA departure would have been the one to go over Seal Beach. :)
Hoping to try the new FlyGTA service with King Air's YTZ -YGK later this year... but can't wait to get back on those big international airliners again soon!
 
Iluvtofly
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Re: No more LAX loop on departures

Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:50 pm

russyyz wrote:
I love the names ATC areas use for various SIDS and STARS. I would have thought, though, that the ORCKA departure would have been the one to go over Seal Beach. :)

Awesome ....... love your sense of humour !!!
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Woodreau
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Re: No more LAX loop on departures

Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:48 pm

But there are no seals in Seal Beach, just bombs missiles, ordnance, and explosives, a large naval magazine and a huge wildlife refuge in what is probably one of the larger undeveloped areas in the LA/OC area.
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
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UPlog
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Re: No more LAX loop on departures

Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:11 pm

Yes like noted it's been renamed, but its definitely in use. I've flown it pretty regularly when operating out of LAX.
I fly your boxes
 
uclax
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Re: No more LAX loop on departures

Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:20 am

Talking about Seal Beach, for years in the 80s and 90s, the DOTSS was called the FLIPR, which I always thought was funny given there were 1960s-1990s movies and TV shows about a dolphin named Flipper
...those who wait for the Lord�s help...rise up as if they had eagles� wings Isaiah 40:31
 
747Whale
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Re: No more LAX loop on departures

Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:00 am

The SEAL BEACH departure (SLI8.SLI) is still in effect. It's now the SEAL BEACH 8, as it's progressed from one number to the next as it's updated. The current version was effective January 25, 2019. It’s flown for both eastbound and westbound departures, and involves a turn or vectors to Seal Beach VOR, by Long Beach. The SEAL BEACH departure has been used for many years and will continue to be available for many years to come.

Bear in mind that there are 24 departure procedures from KLAX; several involve turns back to land, but all exist to route traffic to the enroute structure, and which departure is used depends on which is in use and where the aircraft is going.
 
timz
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Re: No more LAX loop on departures

Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:46 pm

747Whale wrote:
the SEAL BEACH 8 ... [is] flown for both eastbound and westbound departures

Westbound from LAX? Off of runways 6/7, you mean?

https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1903/00237SEALBEACH.PDF
 
747Whale
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Re: No more LAX loop on departures

Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:58 pm

timz wrote:
Westbound from LAX? Off of runways 6/7, you mean?

https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1903/00237SEALBEACH.PDF


No, I mean exactly what I said. The SEALBEACH 8 departure accommodates departures from both eastbound, and westbound runways: 6, 7, 24, 25.

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