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skipness1E
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A320 series last row- add in a window?

Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:40 pm

Given the move to have tiny toilets in the tail rather than forward of the rear door, the A320 series now has a row of seats where before it rarely did. Yet since this space was intended for a toilet, it’s windowless and remains so in new builds. Is it beyond Airbus to simply add a window now or is there a structural reason people in the last row look at the wall?
 
strfyr51
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Re: A320 series last row- add in a window?

Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:45 pm

skipness1E wrote:
Given the move to have tiny toilets in the tail rather than forward of the rear door, the A320 series now has a row of seats where before it rarely did. Yet since this space was intended for a toilet, it’s windowless and remains so in new builds. Is it beyond Airbus to simply add a window now or is there a structural reason people in the last row look at the wall?

Since not all Airlines have the same Cabin configuration? What Airline's A320 are you referring TO?
 
burnsie28
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Re: A320 series last row- add in a window?

Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:07 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Given the move to have tiny toilets in the tail rather than forward of the rear door, the A320 series now has a row of seats where before it rarely did. Yet since this space was intended for a toilet, it’s windowless and remains so in new builds. Is it beyond Airbus to simply add a window now or is there a structural reason people in the last row look at the wall?

Since not all Airlines have the same Cabin configuration? What Airline's A320 are you referring TO?


Delta, Frontier, Spirit, Allegiant to name a few.

Given the plane begins to curve it, it might not be a structural place for it. Also you can't just cut a hole and call it a day. Also since most planes have been delivered it would be up to them to add it and if it could be done no one is going to spend the money for it.
 
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longhauler
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Re: A320 series last row- add in a window?

Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:08 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
Since not all Airlines have the same Cabin configuration? What Airline's A320 are you referring TO?

It's not an airline/cabin configuration he is referring to, but a fuselage construction configuration and they all have it.

That space (normally) had lavs. Now that most airlines and not just LCCs have seats right back to the doors, I too have wondered if it is possible to add windows.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
greg85
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Re: A320 series last row- add in a window?

Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:13 pm

I imagine it would cost airbus a few €. It would involve a design and certification process to add windows. My bet is they’ll just leave it. The 156 seat configuration A319 has had no windows in the back row for the past 16 years.
 
george77300
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Re: A320 series last row- add in a window?

Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:16 pm

longhauler wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
Since not all Airlines have the same Cabin configuration? What Airline's A320 are you referring TO?

It's not an airline/cabin configuration he is referring to, but a fuselage construction configuration and they all have it.

That space (normally) had lavs. Now that most airlines and not just LCCs have seats right back to the doors, I too have wondered if it is possible to add windows.


Absolutely it is now on most airlines in Europe too. ALL A320s have the same issue as it is a fuselage design from Airbus. Also all the A320neos will have the same problem too. I cant see Airbus changing this. It would cost them money to change the fuselage structure and what would they get in return? Airlines aren’t going to pay extra and I’m sure most people aren’t particularly fussed. Just avoid the last row.

It will be a growing problem as no doubt more and more airlines with go with the SpaceFlex configuration on the upcoming 6,000+ A320neos.

We’ll see but I don’t see this problem changing. Certainly not a retrofit option. You cant just cut a hole in the fuselage after. (I mean you “could” (a bit like freighter conversions) but would be very expensive with no benefit to the airlines at all, despite huge costs.
 
bmibaby737
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Re: A320 series last row- add in a window?

Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:31 pm

Actually, easyJet have been cutting a new window in on the Airbus A320s that are being re-configured to Y186 up from Y180. It's not simply a window plug being removed.
 
skipness1E
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Re: A320 series last row- add in a window?

Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:43 pm

Are you sure? I was on two this week and didn’t see one at Gatters that had that. I was keeping an eye on that exact area oddly enough, as the G- fleet looked different until I figured the EU flags had been removed recently!
 
HtC
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Re: A320 series last row- add in a window?

Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:18 pm

Please be careful: Already for years new built A320 have sometimes an additional window between C64 and C65 where the lavatory was positioned initially. Cutting the window is easy within structure assembly, but there's no point for airlines to remove everything in this area just to cut a window, this is too complex.
Hope this helped, greetings from Airbus Plant XFW
 
george77300
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Re: A320 series last row- add in a window?

Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:19 pm

bmibaby737 wrote:
Actually, easyJet have been cutting a new window in on the Airbus A320s that are being re-configured to Y186 up from Y180. It's not simply a window plug being removed.


Really???? Are you sure?

They are actually cutting a hole in the plane when they are reconfiguring?

I know there is no plug or hidden window so can’t be easy but seems an unnecessary expense if true.

Do you have examples? Do you know a registration that’s had it done to compare photos? I just find it hard to believe.
 
bmibaby737
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Re: A320 series last row- add in a window?

Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:47 pm

As far as I know any of the aircraft that have had Y186 added (have a look on Planespotters.net, they're doing pretty well at keeping up to date with the changes).

It's only on the right-hand side of the aircraft, at the rear. I can't link (or my post will be removed) but have a look at G-EZUZ on Flickr, plenty of photographers have uploaded photos around 4000 pixels on there, you can clearly see there was no window plug before the conversion. There's probably better comparisons where the aircraft was re-configured after being repainted, so you can see the difference more easily - but check the amount of windows.
 
skipness1E
Topic Author
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Re: A320 series last row- add in a window?

Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:13 pm

Not sure on that one, being on a 186 seater with no windows to Lisbon with easyJet last week is what prompted my asking!
Suspect the removal of the EU flag may be what’s different?
 
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Aesma
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Re: A320 series last row- add in a window?

Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:55 pm

Personally I won't seat at a window seat without a window. Happened to me once on an Avro 100 as there is no window next to the engine (I'm guessing next to the high pressure turbine), fortunately I could change seats to another row.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Maersk737
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Re: A320 series last row- add in a window?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:12 am

HtC wrote:
Please be careful: Already for years new built A320 have sometimes an additional window between C64 and C65 where the lavatory was positioned initially. Cutting the window is easy within structure assembly, but there's no point for airlines to remove everything in this area just to cut a window, this is too complex.
Hope this helped, greetings from Airbus Plant XFW


Helped a lot, thank you :thumbsup:
I'm not proud to be a Viking, just thankfull
 
a320fan
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Re: A320 series last row- add in a window?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:13 am

I don’t really see the big deal. Yeah I’d be annoyed if I got that seat but I research the seat maps before I fly. Lots of aircraft have rows with missing windows. 737s have a gap in front of the wing for air conditioning ducts. 787 has a windowless row towards the rear where two barrels join up.
A319, A320, A321, A330-200, A350-900, A380, 737-700, 737-800, 777-200ER, 777-300, 777-300ER, 787-8, Q300, Q400
 
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XAM2175
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Re: A320 series last row- add in a window?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:05 pm

It would be nice though if more airlines published seat maps that showed the actual window position, rather than having to rely on crowd-sourced reviews.

QF, for example, make it very easy: https://www.qantas.com/content/dam/qant ... -400ER.pdf
 
stratclub
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Re: A320 series last row- add in a window?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:44 pm

george77300 wrote:
bmibaby737 wrote:
Actually, easyJet have been cutting a new window in on the Airbus A320s that are being re-configured to Y186 up from Y180. It's not simply a window plug being removed.


Really???? Are you sure?

They are actually cutting a hole in the plane when they are reconfiguring?

I know there is no plug or hidden window so can’t be easy but seems an unnecessary expense if true.

Do you have examples? Do you know a registration that’s had it done to compare photos? I just find it hard to believe.

It wouldn't be that hard to do, actually.
    Remove a seat and sidewall panel.
    Remove part of one stringer.
    Cut a hole in the aircraft skin.
    Position, drill and install a window frame to the fuselage skin.
    Install outer window pane, sidewall, window reveal and seat.
 
george77300
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Re: A320 series last row- add in a window?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:19 pm

stratclub wrote:
george77300 wrote:
bmibaby737 wrote:
Actually, easyJet have been cutting a new window in on the Airbus A320s that are being re-configured to Y186 up from Y180. It's not simply a window plug being removed.


Really???? Are you sure?

They are actually cutting a hole in the plane when they are reconfiguring?

I know there is no plug or hidden window so can’t be easy but seems an unnecessary expense if true.

Do you have examples? Do you know a registration that’s had it done to compare photos? I just find it hard to believe.

It wouldn't be that hard to do, actually.
    Remove a seat and sidewall panel.
    Remove part of one stringer.
    Cut a hole in the aircraft skin.
    Position, drill and install a window frame to the fuselage skin.
    Install outer window pane, sidewall, window reveal and seat.


I understand it’s possible. But why would an airline take a plane out of service to do that for no return on investment. Even in maintenance that will cost money to do, take time, with no return. Surely no airline would see the value in this?
 
bmibaby737
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Re: A320 series last row- add in a window?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:24 pm

george77300 wrote:
I understand it’s possible. But why would an airline take a plane out of service to do that for no return on investment. Even in maintenance that will cost money to do, take time, with no return. Surely no airline would see the value in this?


So that they could put in an extra row of seats without the added complaints of passengers feeling claustrophobic from not having a window... easyJets A320s make up 2/3 of the fleet.

skipness1E wrote:
I understand it’s possible. But why would an airline take a plane out of service to do that for no return on investment. Even in maintenance that will cost money to do, take time, with no return. Surely no airline would see the value in this?

...
bmibaby737 wrote:
There's probably better comparisons where the aircraft was re-configured after being repainted, so you can see the difference more easily - but check the amount of windows.


Here you go, using two of my own photos:

Image
 
strfyr51
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Re: A320 series last row- add in a window?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:46 pm

george77300 wrote:
bmibaby737 wrote:
Actually, easyJet have been cutting a new window in on the Airbus A320s that are being re-configured to Y186 up from Y180. It's not simply a window plug being removed.


Really???? Are you sure?

They are actually cutting a hole in the plane when they are reconfiguring?

I know there is no plug or hidden window so can’t be easy but seems an unnecessary expense if true.

Do you have examples? Do you know a registration that’s had it done to compare photos? I just find it hard to believe.

So? they're cutting a hole in Beltline structure? I'd sure like to see the Engineering order on that! They could just remove the structural plug where the Window could be and be adding a clear window and sidewall panel.
 
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DL_Mech
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Re: A320 series last row- add in a window?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:58 pm

[quote="strfyr51"][/quote]

Did United add the third window aft of the L2 door or was it done by Boeing?

This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.

Former AMT on A220,A310,A319/20/21,A330,A350,B707,B717,B727,B737,B747,B757,B767,B777,DC-9,DC-10,L-1011,
MD-80/90,MD-11
 
george77300
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Re: A320 series last row- add in a window?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:05 pm

bmibaby737 wrote:
george77300 wrote:
I understand it’s possible. But why would an airline take a plane out of service to do that for no return on investment. Even in maintenance that will cost money to do, take time, with no return. Surely no airline would see the value in this?


So that they could put in an extra row of seats without the added complaints of passengers feeling claustrophobic from not having a window... easyJets A320s make up 2/3 of the fleet.

skipness1E wrote:
I understand it’s possible. But why would an airline take a plane out of service to do that for no return on investment. Even in maintenance that will cost money to do, take time, with no return. Surely no airline would see the value in this?

...
bmibaby737 wrote:
There's probably better comparisons where the aircraft was re-configured after being repainted, so you can see the difference more easily - but check the amount of windows.


Here you go, using two of my own photos:

Image


Thanks for the photos. Very clear. :bigthumbsup:
 
stratclub
Posts: 1377
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:38 pm

Re: A320 series last row- add in a window?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:23 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
george77300 wrote:
bmibaby737 wrote:
Actually, easyJet have been cutting a new window in on the Airbus A320s that are being re-configured to Y186 up from Y180. It's not simply a window plug being removed.


Really???? Are you sure?

They are actually cutting a hole in the plane when they are reconfiguring?

I know there is no plug or hidden window so can’t be easy but seems an unnecessary expense if true.

Do you have examples? Do you know a registration that’s had it done to compare photos? I just find it hard to believe.

So? they're cutting a hole in Beltline structure? I'd sure like to see the Engineering order on that! They could just remove the structural plug where the Window could be and be adding a clear window and sidewall panel.

There is no"structural plug" to remove. The engineering would be very straight forward and may already be documented in the TC if AirBus has engineering for the added window.

What would be so hard about cutting a hole in beltline structure anyway? Have you seen the difference in the structure between a non window cargo and passenger plane with windows? Other than the hole, the only difference is there is a gap added in one stringer and a window frame is added to install a window. The mod could be easily performed during a short maintenance check or when the flight schedule has a gap of about 2 days.

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