Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
deltalaw wrote:American carriers don’t fly to those countries. Moot conversation.
afterburner wrote:I believe the headscarf rule in Saudi Arabia is only applied (or strictly applied) to the two holy cities, Mecca and Medina. In fact, only Muslims can enter and live in this two cities. Other cities like Jeddah are more moderate. It isn't unusual to see women without headscarves.
1836Sam wrote:afterburner wrote:I believe the headscarf rule in Saudi Arabia is only applied (or strictly applied) to the two holy cities, Mecca and Medina. In fact, only Muslims can enter and live in this two cities. Other cities like Jeddah are more moderate. It isn't unusual to see women without headscarves.
Um, really?!?!
afterburner wrote:1836Sam wrote:afterburner wrote:I believe the headscarf rule in Saudi Arabia is only applied (or strictly applied) to the two holy cities, Mecca and Medina. In fact, only Muslims can enter and live in this two cities. Other cities like Jeddah are more moderate. It isn't unusual to see women without headscarves.
Um, really?!?!
I've been to Saudi Arabia twice. The first time was in 1989 and the second one was last year. On both occasions I saw women without headscarves in public places (especially in malls). They were foreigners. Most probably migrant workers from Southeast Asia.
deltalaw wrote:American carriers don’t fly to those countries. Moot conversation.
Delta Air Lines does not discriminate nor do we condone discrimination against any of our customers in regards to age, race, nationality, religion, or gender.
Delta does not operate service to Saudi Arabia and does not codeshare with any airline on flights to that country. Delta does not intend to codeshare or share reciprocal benefits, such as frequent flier benefits, with Saudi Arabian Airlines, which we have confirmed with SkyTeam, an Amsterdam-based 14-member global airline alliance.
deltalaw wrote:American carriers don’t fly to those countries. Moot conversation.
Starlionblue wrote:Contrary to popular belief, headscarves are not mandatory in Saudi Arabia. However, wearing an Abaya or similar non-revealing clothing is mandatory.
As you get to the hotel, a clothes rack with loaner abayas is wheeled out for female crew. As you depart the hotel, the abayas are returned.
zeke wrote:To and from the hotel and at the airport that is not required in Saudi. Westerners are kept in guarded compounds, different rules apply.
Crew are issued a letter of introduction to show the religious police if questioned.
Once you go out in public it’s time to observe local customs. At shopping malls there are religious police that enforce these dress codes. Eating areas have different colour tables for males, females, and families. Some shops are women or family only, or have segregated areas for family only.
It really isn’t that bad, just a little different.
kitplane01 wrote:zeke wrote:To and from the hotel and at the airport that is not required in Saudi. Westerners are kept in guarded compounds, different rules apply.
Crew are issued a letter of introduction to show the religious police if questioned.
Once you go out in public it’s time to observe local customs. At shopping malls there are religious police that enforce these dress codes. Eating areas have different colour tables for males, females, and families. Some shops are women or family only, or have segregated areas for family only.
It really isn’t that bad, just a little different.
Separate but equal is widely judged immoral in many contexts. Separate but equal restaurants (or restaurant areas) has been judged immoral in my country since the 1960s.
kitplane01 wrote:Starlionblue wrote:Contrary to popular belief, headscarves are not mandatory in Saudi Arabia. However, wearing an Abaya or similar non-revealing clothing is mandatory.
As you get to the hotel, a clothes rack with loaner abayas is wheeled out for female crew. As you depart the hotel, the abayas are returned.
I dunno. The Internet seems quite clear on Saudi law on this matter.
" Saudi Arabian dress code legally requires all women, local and foreign, to wear an abaya, a typically black garment that covers everything except the face, hands, and feet, in public." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab_by_ ... udi_Arabia
I can find 10 million more examples.
I don't know how seriously the law is enforced.
deltalaw wrote:American carriers don’t fly to those countries. Moot conversation.
Starlionblue wrote:Normally we'd just hang at the hotel anyway so it was a bit of a moot point.
kitplane01 wrote:I think many women would very much disagree with you. They might reasonably feel discriminated against in a way men are not. Of course every person has their own viewpoint, but I would sympathize with such a position.
deltalaw wrote:American carriers don’t fly to those countries. Moot conversation.
zeke wrote:kitplane01 wrote:I think many women would very much disagree with you. They might reasonably feel discriminated against in a way men are not. Of course every person has their own viewpoint, but I would sympathize with such a position.
You come across as being very intolerant and disrespectful of other cultures.
People who travel widely like crew are used to blending in and being respectful in other countries, and often go out of their way to learn a few local phrases like please, thank you, good morning. It goes a long way to being welcomed.
I have had some great trips in Saudi, just by being polite. Locals have in my experience go out of their way to treat you like family. Their culture is to share everything they have with even relatively unknown people.
In contrast go to someplace like the US which is supposed to be “free”, you would be flat out getting anyone to have the time of day for you. Foreigners are either domestic workers or worse. Often immigration pull one or two of my female crew in uniform for secondary questioning in the back room and they are asked what is the purpose of your visitor today to the USA ? Why do you come to the US so often, are you a prostitute ?
“I’m crew, that’s why I have a crew visa, in uniform, on the GD”
kitplane01 wrote:Starlionblue wrote:Normally we'd just hang at the hotel anyway so it was a bit of a moot point.
I think many women would very much disagree with you. They might reasonably feel discriminated against in a way men are not. Of course every person has their own viewpoint, but I would sympathize with such a position.
zeke wrote:
You come across as being very intolerant and disrespectful of other cultures.
77H wrote:Well said. You’ll have to excuse some of my American counterparts. It is evident in several posts in just this thread alone that some believe that anything contrary to the American way is wrong. Rest assured fellow Americans, the world looks at the way we do things and let’s out a collective W T
Starlionblue wrote:
If you want to make stand against such political systems, that's fine. But while acting as an employee this is not your place. If you can't handle such situations, don't work for an international airline.
kitplane01 wrote:You come across as not caring about the rights and dignities of others.
zeke wrote:kitplane01 wrote:You come across as not caring about the rights and dignities of others.
Unlike you I have obviously have talked to locals in Saudi, and they haven’t expressed their rights or dignity has been impacted.
It’s their custom.
Many countries around the world have different dress for males and females, from very primitive cultures to very advanced ones. Even your beloved North American aborigines.
Why “pick” on just one group?
kitplane01 wrote:I can understand the "it's a custom" argument. I can even argue it if you want. But Saudi society is clearly sexist:
- Women must show the signed permission from a mahram (close male relative—husband, son, father, uncle or grandson) before she is free to travel, even inside Saudi Arabia
- Global Gender Gap Report ranked Saudi Arabia 141 out of 144 countries for gender parity
- This list can go on forever
This sexism makes me less comfortable with the "it's just culture" argument and more comfortable with the "this sexist government should not impose it's sexism on me" argument. If you want to argue that Saudi society isn't very sexist, I disagree. If you want to that the rest of Saudi society is sexist, but this one thing is not .. that feels naive.
kitplane01 wrote:zeke wrote:
You come across as being very intolerant and disrespectful of other cultures.
You come across as not caring about the rights and dignities of others.77H wrote:Well said. You’ll have to excuse some of my American counterparts. It is evident in several posts in just this thread alone that some believe that anything contrary to the American way is wrong. Rest assured fellow Americans, the world looks at the way we do things and let’s out a collective W T
Actually, the rule is that sexism is wrong. It's not pro-America, it's anti-sexism.
HERE'S THE THING: If you think head scarves are a cultural affectation, then it's a minor thing and all the noise is dumb. But if you think head scarves are a sign of gender oppression, then it's oppression and the problems are obvious. I think we all agree on that??
zeke wrote:kitplane01 wrote:I can understand the "it's a custom" argument. I can even argue it if you want. But Saudi society is clearly sexist:
- Women must show the signed permission from a mahram (close male relative—husband, son, father, uncle or grandson) before she is free to travel, even inside Saudi Arabia
- Global Gender Gap Report ranked Saudi Arabia 141 out of 144 countries for gender parity
- This list can go on forever
This sexism makes me less comfortable with the "it's just culture" argument and more comfortable with the "this sexist government should not impose it's sexism on me" argument. If you want to argue that Saudi society isn't very sexist, I disagree. If you want to that the rest of Saudi society is sexist, but this one thing is not .. that feels naive.
You are still projecting your values on others, and judging them as being unjust.
afterburner wrote:I believe the headscarf rule in Saudi Arabia is only applied (or strictly applied) to the two holy cities, MeMedina. In fact, only Muslims can enter and live in this two cities. Other cities like Jeddah are more moderate. It isn't unusual to see women without headscarves.
77H wrote:kitplane01 wrote:zeke wrote:
You come across as being very intolerant and disrespectful of other cultures.
You come across as not caring about the rights and dignities of others.77H wrote:Well said. You’ll have to excuse some of my American counterparts. It is evident in several posts in just this thread alone that some believe that anything contrary to the American way is wrong. Rest assured fellow Americans, the world looks at the way we do things and let’s out a collective W T
Actually, the rule is that sexism is wrong. It's not pro-America, it's anti-sexism.
HERE'S THE THING: If you think head scarves are a cultural affectation, then it's a minor thing and all the noise is dumb. But if you think head scarves are a sign of gender oppression, then it's oppression and the problems are obvious. I think we all agree on that??
Right.... because oppression of women is nonexistent in the US. What is the “MeToo” movement all about then? Oh and let’s not forget the countless convicted rapists in this country who have gotten little more than a slap on the wrist for destroying women’s lives. Let’s clean up the mess at home before judging others shall we?
77H
kitplane01 wrote:Starlionblue wrote:
If you want to make stand against such political systems, that's fine. But while acting as an employee this is not your place. If you can't handle such situations, don't work for an international airline.
Suppose you thought your employer was asking something immoral. Then protesting/requesting/complaining is appropriate. You should not be forced to give up your job (and seniority). The employer should instead behave morally.
At least one airline (Delta) is believes morality requires not being an airline in Saudi Arabia. https://news.delta.com/delta-issues-sta ... n-airlines
strfyr51 wrote:It was so chaotic that whomever had a problem, everybody pitched in to help that airline no matter what airline you actually worked for. It was like the UN of airlines!!
strfyr51 wrote:During the Haaj non muslim flight attendants are not required to wear head scarves as one may enter into Mecca Itself. We landed and took off from King Faisal Airport,
And Certainly when I was there? There were very few if any Muslims working there on the ramp as most airlines brought in their own staff. It was so chaotic that whomever had a problem, everybody pitched in to help that airline no matter what airline you actually worked for. It was like the UN of airlines!![/photoid]
kitplane01 wrote:I think many women would very much disagree with you. They might reasonably feel discriminated against in a way men are not. Of course every person has their own viewpoint, but I would sympathize with such a position.
kitplane01 wrote:You come across as not caring about the rights and dignities of others.
kitplane01 wrote:But if you think head scarves are a sign of gender oppression, then it's oppression and the problems are obvious. I think we all agree on that??
kitplane01 wrote:And I have talked to Egyptians and Jordanians and Iranians and Pakistani (but not Saudi, you're right). And I'm aware things are different in Jordan and Saudi Arabia.
zeke wrote:You are still projecting your values on others, and judging them as being unjust.
strfyr51 wrote:During the Haaj non muslim flight attendants are not required to wear head scarves as one may enter into Mecca Itself. We landed and took off from King Faisal Airport,
And Certainly when I was there? There were very few if any Muslims working there on the ramp as most airlines brought in their own staff. It was so chaotic that whomever had a problem, everybody pitched in to help that airline no matter what airline you actually worked for. It was like the UN of airlines!![/photoid]
afterburner wrote:I believe the headscarf rule in Saudi Arabia is only applied (or strictly applied) to the two holy cities, Mecca and Medina. In fact, only Muslims can enter and live in this two cities. Other cities like Jeddah are more moderate. It isn't unusual to see women without headscarves.
mandala499 wrote:afterburner wrote:I believe the headscarf rule in Saudi Arabia is only applied (or strictly applied) to the two holy cities, Mecca and Medina. In fact, only Muslims can enter and live in this two cities. Other cities like Jeddah are more moderate. It isn't unusual to see women without headscarves.
You need to go to Riyadh then... I am told it makes Jeddah (and even Mecca and Medina) look liberal!
mandala499 wrote:kitplane01 wrote:I think many women would very much disagree with you. They might reasonably feel discriminated against in a way men are not. Of course every person has their own viewpoint, but I would sympathize with such a position.
How many is "many"?
My friend who flew there or were based there for years didn't have a problem. Their view is that it is their land, their customs, my friends were just there for work.
When in Rome, do as the Romans do.
kitplane01 wrote:mandala499 wrote:kitplane01 wrote:I think many women would very much disagree with you. They might reasonably feel discriminated against in a way men are not. Of course every person has their own viewpoint, but I would sympathize with such a position.
How many is "many"?
My friend who flew there or were based there for years didn't have a problem. Their view is that it is their land, their customs, my friends were just there for work.
When in Rome, do as the Romans do.
The Romans had slavery, killed Jews and Christians for public entertainment, and discriminated against women and French people. (Really Gauls, same thing.)
If the place you're going has an immoral practice, do you really "do as the Romans do"?
Starlionblue wrote:kitplane01 wrote:mandala499 wrote:How many is "many"?
My friend who flew there or were based there for years didn't have a problem. Their view is that it is their land, their customs, my friends were just there for work.
When in Rome, do as the Romans do.
The Romans had slavery, killed Jews and Christians for public entertainment, and discriminated against women and French people. (Really Gauls, same thing.)
If the place you're going has an immoral practice, do you really "do as the Romans do"?
It's an expression...
kitplane01 wrote:Starlionblue wrote:kitplane01 wrote:
The Romans had slavery, killed Jews and Christians for public entertainment, and discriminated against women and French people. (Really Gauls, same thing.)
If the place you're going has an immoral practice, do you really "do as the Romans do"?
It's an expression...
Obviously ... but there was a question: If the place you're going has an immoral practice, do you really "do as the Romans do"?
kitplane01 wrote:Obviously ... but there was a question: If the place you're going has an immoral practice, do you really "do as the Romans do"?
Starlionblue wrote:I think the expression can also be interpreted as "when in Rome, be polite to the locals and don't draw attention to yourself in such a way as would seem offensive or impolite in their culture."
mandala499 wrote:kitplane01 wrote:Obviously ... but there was a question: If the place you're going has an immoral practice, do you really "do as the Romans do"?
What has immoral practice got to do with Technical Operations?
Dear Mods, I think it's clear what the OP is trying to do, and the answer he/she seeks has nothing to do with Technical Operations.
kitplane01 wrote:zeke wrote:
You come across as being very intolerant and disrespectful of other cultures.
You come across as not caring about the rights and dignities of others.
WIederling wrote:That from a culture that goes into hysteric antics on exposure of an innocent nipple, breastfeeding ( even with nipple in mouth ) and similar things.
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I’m an American of a rather right wing view and, after visiting 70-something countries, will absolutely testify that many countries and customs have their good (and bad) points. We fly airplanes, not make political statements.
gf
GalaxyFlyer wrote:zekeAs said elsewhere, live and let live, I don’t care a hoot what a foreign custom is as long as they don’t try to export it. I don’t preach and don’t want to be preached. Funny, that’s how it worked out.
mandala499 wrote:kitplane01 wrote:Obviously ... but there was a question: If the place you're going has an immoral practice, do you really "do as the Romans do"?
What has immoral practice got to do with Technical Operations?
Dear Mods, I think it's clear what the OP is trying to do, and the answer he/she seeks has nothing to do with Technical Operations.
WIederling wrote:That from a culture that goes into hysteric antics on exposure of an innocent nipple, breastfeeding ( even with nipple in mouth ) and similar things.
zeke wrote:The same culture that has not been able to ratify the Equal Rights Amendment since it was originally introduced to congress in 1921, some 98 years ago,
kitplane01 wrote:zeke wrote:kitplane01 wrote:I can understand the "it's a custom" argument. I can even argue it if you want. But Saudi society is clearly sexist:
- Women must show the signed permission from a mahram (close male relative—husband, son, father, uncle or grandson) before she is free to travel, even inside Saudi Arabia
- Global Gender Gap Report ranked Saudi Arabia 141 out of 144 countries for gender parity
- This list can go on forever
This sexism makes me less comfortable with the "it's just culture" argument and more comfortable with the "this sexist government should not impose it's sexism on me" argument. If you want to argue that Saudi society isn't very sexist, I disagree. If you want to that the rest of Saudi society is sexist, but this one thing is not .. that feels naive.
You are still projecting your values on others, and judging them as being unjust.
I am. And I should. And everyone does to some extent. Isn't the other choice to ignore evil and injustice? (If you wan't to argue I'm wrong in my judgement .. that's a different issue.) I always think of this ... For evil to win all that is needed is for good people to remain silent.
CARST wrote:Keep it up kitplane. We good people need to speak about the bad things in the world. There is no reason to keep back at all. Respect for a different culture must end once human rights are in danger. Forcing women to wear head scarfs and other clothing is in clear violation of human rights.
CARST wrote:I know bashing our mates from the US is very fashionable, but perhaps you guys should think first before writing. If shit hits the fan, do you want to sit in front of a US court or in front of a Saudi Arabian court? The answer, which you can give yourselfs, should bring some perspective back to that topic.