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mandala499
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Re: Head Scarves and Scheduling

Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:48 am

CARST wrote:
Are you really that ignorant mandala? Or are you just unhappy with the topic?

Are we talking political and moral beliefs, or are we talking about crew being scheduled to go to Saudi Arabia, or Iran?

The answer the OP asked, has been answered in various replies in this topic.
1. They will be scheduled to go there.
2. If they don't like it, ask for a swap, or raise the issue of one's disagreement with the country's policy WITH THE EMPLOYER (pertinent to the crew member not wishing to be assigned for duty there).
3. When one flies there on duty, one should follow the local laws and customs while there.

I hope the above is clear and unambiguous. If you don't want to end up doing #3, then take action with your employer at #1 and/or #2.

And I appreciate the OP's subsequent comment (eventually) which were:
kitplane01 wrote:
Actually, it did start as a question about scheduling and airliners. But clearly we are no longer talking about that. Thanks to everyone who participated. Now back to real airliner stuff…


TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Honestly, the question has been answered, and I don't think there's any need for this thread to continue.

EXACTLY!!!!!
This is topic is under TechOps and let's keep the discussions relevant to TechOps.

If one wants to talk about the political/morals/non-aviation aspects, the please raise the topic again in the Non-Aviation Section.
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
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zeke
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Re: Head Scarves and Scheduling

Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:04 am

CARST wrote:
That's a very valid question, especially if you are female or gay and so far the question has not been answered.


I know we have sent all female cockpit and cabin crew as well as gay crew to Saudi without any incident. There is a perception that there is a problem or issue, the reality is different.

Qantas used DXB as their main hub for a while, they had hundreds of gay crew operating through DXB where it is illegal to be gay.

CARST wrote:
If shit hits the fan, do you want to sit in front of a US court or in front of a Saudi Arabian court? The answer, which you can give yourselfs, should bring some perspective back to that topic.


I wouldn’t be infront of a court anywhere. It is not something that would concern me.

KingOrGod wrote:
My reply was religious and I don't think anybody here is prepared to see another point of view.


I have flown to countries like Malaysia where it is illegal not to be religious, you must believe in a god. They just don’t specify which variant.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Head Scarves and Scheduling

Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:00 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
CARST wrote:
Keep it up kitplane. We good people need to speak about the bad things in the world. There is no reason to keep back at all. Respect for a different culture must end once human rights are in danger. Forcing women to wear head scarfs and other clothing is in clear violation of human rights.


Even if those things he spoke of are based on flawed knowledge & lack of first hand experience? The fact that he attacked the assertions of those who actually have BEEN to Saudi Arabia is saying a lot to be honest.


NO I DID NOT!

I've been to several Arab countries, and don't have flawed knowledge in this area.

I know that if head scarves are a symbol of gender oppression, then they're bad, and making your employees comply in the name of "when in Rome" is wrong. And arguments like "but you can hide in the hotel" really isn't an answer.

Airline related question: When Apartheid was active in South Africa, how did western airlines deal with black employees? Did Delta send African-Americans down to Cape town? Did they tell such employees "just stay in the hotel"?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Head Scarves and Scheduling

Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:27 pm

They didn’t send African-Americans to Cape Town because, wait for it, they didn’t airplanes there. I find it a stretch to call head scarves “gender oppression”; in living memory that was required in Christian churches.

.
Gf
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Head Scarves and Scheduling

Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:46 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
They didn’t send African-Americans to Cape Town because, wait for it, they didn’t airplanes there. I find it a stretch to call head scarves “gender oppression”; in living memory that was required in Christian churches.

.
Gf


So I don't believe that. The BOAC airline served Johannesburg, during the Apartheid era, says https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_O ... stinations

Anyone know how airlines handled black employees during the Apartheid era? Did they really send them to South Africa? Did they tell them to "stay in the hotel"? How did that work?
 
mandala499
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Re: Head Scarves and Scheduling

Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:43 am

kitplane01 wrote:
I know that if head scarves are a symbol of gender oppression, then they're bad, and making your employees comply in the name of "when in Rome" is wrong. And arguments like "but you can hide in the hotel" really isn't an answer.

Unfortunately, that is the answer. If the crew member doesn't agree with that, then raise it with the employer... or get a swap... or, sue the employer :)

We have similar issues here domestically. The province of Aceh, demands that under it's Shariah law, crew landing in its cities are asked to wear "modest uniforms". This changed from earlier demands of "must dress properly according to the local norms and customs when leaving the aircraft"... ie: Even if you never leave the aircraft during the turnaround. Some crew opposed this, and they just swapped their schedules with colleagues whenever they're scheduled to go there... and the airline actually prefer to send "volunteers" there, because they can cut down on the number of "modified uniforms".

With Saudi Arabia, one airline here just give the "Aceh uniform" to the crew on duty there... or, just provide the crew with abbayas before leaving the aircraft.

Homosexual crew? Yeah well, the immigration doesn't go and ask each individual crew "are you gay? tell me the truth!"... They just don't ask...

Gender oppression? Heck some crew actually ASKS to fly there... they're usually known within the company and are usually the target for other crew for swap requests.

kitplane01 wrote:
Airline related question: When Apartheid was active in South Africa, how did western airlines deal with black employees? Did Delta send African-Americans down to Cape town? Did they tell such employees "just stay in the hotel"?

I can't find examples of crew, but this article shows what it was like for foreign blacks:
https://www.businessinsider.com/what-li ... 3-12/?IR=T

On subsequent visits to South Africa as a teenager, I had a British passport. That put me in the peculiar position of being an "honorary white" — meaning I could stay in white hotels and, upon showing my passport, go to restaurants, movie theaters and other places reserved for whites. The exception was South Africa's racially segregated beaches.

This is kinda like in Malaysia going with several chinese Malaysian friends into a non-halal restaurant and the restaurant owner tried to shoo me away (probably he didn't want trouble for feeding a malay looking person non-halal food), until I showed him my passport, and he was happy to have me as a patron.

---

I got a reverse case for you on this:
[quote="I know that if head scarves are a symbol of gender oppression, then they're bad, and making your employees comply in the name of "when in Rome" is wrong. And arguments like "but you can hide in the hotel" really isn't an answer.[/quote]
There were female cabin crew who wore head scarves when off duty, and they do so out of choice. They actually fought their company to allow them to go on duty with headscarves, citing that it is their right to work with a headscarf... Some companies refused, some companies allowed them.

Some airlines don't allow female cabin crew to wear headscarves, but allow female pilots to do so...

Now... you may see it as bad... but then, just because you see it bad, doesn't mean that there are no women who think it is good.

Now, would you protest dress codes of no bikinis and hotpants when visiting monasteries?
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Head Scarves and Scheduling

Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:17 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
They didn’t send African-Americans to Cape Town because, wait for it, they didn’t airplanes there. I find it a stretch to call head scarves “gender oppression”; in living memory that was required in Christian churches.

.
Gf


So I don't believe that. The BOAC airline served Johannesburg, during the Apartheid era, says https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_O ... stinations

Anyone know how airlines handled black employees during the Apartheid era? Did they really send them to South Africa? Did they tell them to "stay in the hotel"? How did that work?


You said Delta crews, well there weren’t any. And, yes, many European airlines and PAA went to ZAR during apartheid. Same deal, it’s there circus, play by there rules. ZAR was also considerably safer place to wander about then, so you didn’t have to stay in the hotel.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Head Scarves and Scheduling

Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:12 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
They didn’t send African-Americans to Cape Town because, wait for it, they didn’t airplanes there. I find it a stretch to call head scarves “gender oppression”; in living memory that was required in Christian churches.

.
Gf


So I don't believe that. The BOAC airline served Johannesburg, during the Apartheid era, says https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_O ... stinations

Anyone know how airlines handled black employees during the Apartheid era? Did they really send them to South Africa? Did they tell them to "stay in the hotel"? How did that work?


You said Delta crews, well there weren’t any.


Actually, here's the full quote. It asks about "western airlines" and uses Delta as an example. "Airline related question: When Apartheid was active in South Africa, how did western airlines deal with black employees? Did Delta send African-Americans down to Cape town? Did they tell such employees "just stay in the hotel"?"

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
And, yes, many European airlines and PAA went to ZAR during apartheid. Same deal, it’s there circus, play by there rules. ZAR was also considerably safer place to wander about then, so you didn’t have to stay in the hotel.


I think this clears up a lot. You believe apartheid was "their circus, their rules". Please understand that most people believe apartheid was immoral, and that sending employees to be racially discriminated against by apartheid was also immoral. Please understand that you are in the minority for believing that apartheid was "their circus, their rules.", and that subjecting employees to apartheid was moral.

I don't think we'll agree on much.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Head Scarves and Scheduling

Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:18 pm

(duplicate)
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Head Scarves and Scheduling

Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:22 pm

mandala499 wrote:
[

I got a reverse case for you on this:

There were female cabin crew who wore head scarves when off duty, and they do so out of choice. They actually fought their company to allow them to go on duty with headscarves, citing that it is their right to work with a headscarf... Some companies refused, some companies allowed them.

Some airlines don't allow female cabin crew to wear headscarves, but allow female pilots to do so...

Now... you may see it as bad... but then, just because you see it bad, doesn't mean that there are no women who think it is good.

Now, would you protest dress codes of no bikinis and hotpants when visiting monasteries?


Banning bikinis in the monastery is fine.

I worded what I wrote carefully. It's an 'if'.

Some women believe head scarves are a symbol of oppression, and making them wear them is oppressive. Other's don't care, and a third group wants to wear them a symbol of their faith. All these groups are sincere. I hope this is obvious.

Women in the first group, who are airline crews and are forced to follow a religious rule (but don't believe ) sincerely feel oppressed.

P.S. I liked the story about the restaurant. The world is so weird :-)
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Head Scarves and Scheduling

Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:17 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:

So I don't believe that. The BOAC airline served Johannesburg, during the Apartheid era, says https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_O ... stinations

Anyone know how airlines handled black employees during the Apartheid era? Did they really send them to South Africa? Did they tell them to "stay in the hotel"? How did that work?


You said Delta crews, well there weren’t any.


Actually, here's the full quote. It asks about "western airlines" and uses Delta as an example. "Airline related question: When Apartheid was active in South Africa, how did western airlines deal with black employees? Did Delta send African-Americans down to Cape town? Did they tell such employees "just stay in the hotel"?"

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
And, yes, many European airlines and PAA went to ZAR during apartheid. Same deal, it’s there circus, play by there rules. ZAR was also considerably safer place to wander about then, so you didn’t have to stay in the hotel.


I think this clears up a lot. You believe apartheid was "their circus, their rules". Please understand that most people believe apartheid was immoral, and that sending employees to be racially discriminated against by apartheid was also immoral. Please understand that you are in the minority for believing that apartheid was "their circus, their rules.", and that subjecting employees to apartheid was moral.

I don't think we'll agree on much.


I didn’t say I agreed with apartheid, I said it was their country, their laws. As a pilot assigned to operate there, or anywhere, it’s not my position to challenge or judge their laws. My personal judgement is immaterial. I’ve been to dozens of countries and disagree with their laws, customs, and history; not my place to force my opinions on them. Running around imposing one’s morality on others is a serious problems and cause of all kinds of mischief.


Gf
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Head Scarves and Scheduling

Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:11 am

kitplane01 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:

So I don't believe that. The BOAC airline served Johannesburg, during the Apartheid era, says https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_O ... stinations

Anyone know how airlines handled black employees during the Apartheid era? Did they really send them to South Africa? Did they tell them to "stay in the hotel"? How did that work?


You said Delta crews, well there weren’t any.


Actually, here's the full quote. It asks about "western airlines" and uses Delta as an example. "Airline related question: When Apartheid was active in South Africa, how did western airlines deal with black employees? Did Delta send African-Americans down to Cape town? Did they tell such employees "just stay in the hotel"?"

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
And, yes, many European airlines and PAA went to ZAR during apartheid. Same deal, it’s there circus, play by there rules. ZAR was also considerably safer place to wander about then, so you didn’t have to stay in the hotel.


I think this clears up a lot. You believe apartheid was "their circus, their rules". Please understand that most people believe apartheid was immoral, and that sending employees to be racially discriminated against by apartheid was also immoral. Please understand that you are in the minority for believing that apartheid was "their circus, their rules.", and that subjecting employees to apartheid was moral.

I don't think we'll agree on much.


We as crew may think political and social practices at our destinations are wrong. But that doesn't change "their circus, their rules". Crews were not "subjected" to apartheid. They were exposed to some aspects of apartheid.

As an employee. I am absolutely free to have an opinion about a destination, but I am on the job, and thus in some ways represent the airline. Actually even off the job, if I chose to criticise the airline's choice to fly to a destination on social media, I would be in breach of the social media policy. And so we "shut up and soldier".
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
mandala499
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Re: Head Scarves and Scheduling

Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:48 am

kitplane01 wrote:
Women in the first group, who are airline crews and are forced to follow a religious rule (but don't believe ) sincerely feel oppressed.

Then they should raise that with their employer... not with the country that has those rules.

The same apply in reverse. I hope you agree that if female crew who wear headscarves (on duty and off duty), are sent on duty to a place where it is prohibited to wear them at airports or in public places, must raise the issue with their employer instead of throwing a fuss at the destination country.

If you say, they should just take the headscarves off while at the destination, that is equivalent to me saying to the case you put forward that "the crew should just take the headscarves and wear them at the destination."

Why? Because for some, not being allowed to wear them is a symbol of oppression against their faith.

So, the correct thing is, raise it with the employer instead of make a fuss at the destination country.

kitplane01 wrote:
Banning bikinis in the monastery is fine.

Why is this fine and the other is not? Veiled double standards is it?
As Starlionblue correctly put it...
"their circus, their rules"
But a circus, is a circus... but there is more than one type of circus.
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Head Scarves and Scheduling

Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:38 am

mandala499 wrote:
As Starlionblue correctly put it...
"their circus, their rules"
But a circus, is a circus... but there is more than one type of circus.


GalaxyFlyer wrote:
And, yes, many European airlines and PAA went to ZAR during apartheid. Same deal, it’s there circus, play by there rules. ZAR was also considerably safer place to wander about then, so you didn’t have to stay in the hotel.


In this thread, the original "their circus, their rules" was by GalaxyFlyer, who believes apartheid was "their circus, their rules". I'm kinda done. That was my end. If apartheid is "their circus, their rules" then no one can judge anyone, and everyone has to accept anyone's evil laws, and allow our airline employees to also be subject to them too.

Someone upthread said I was judging other cultures. I'm clearly judging apartheid .. and that others think it's "their circus, their rules" ... I don't really know what to say. I've literally never met anyone who thought that. (I've had four people from South Africa to my house, and THEY don't think that.)

Again .. evil wins when good people remain silent.

You can have the final word ..

P.S. I understand there has been thread drift. But if Apartheid is "their circus, their rules" then agreement (or even understanding) on head scarves seems unlikely.
 
mandala499
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Re: Head Scarves and Scheduling

Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:57 am

kitplane01 wrote:
P.S. I understand there has been thread drift. But if Apartheid is "their circus, their rules" then agreement (or even understanding) on head scarves seems unlikely.

If the crew objects to a destination due to political/moral/social issue, he/she is to raise that with the employer, or ask for a swap.

I agree with fighting for what you believe is right, but when you're on the job as crew, you do your job... do the fighting when you're not on your job... and being on a layover is part of the job...
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vfw614
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Re: Head Scarves and Scheduling

Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:58 pm

Having had a quick read through the thread, I cannot help the feeling that the question asked somehow got lost:

For example, if a Delta/Lufthansa/Qantas pilot/flight attendant is female, and does not want to wear a head scarf, will the company put her on a scheduled flight to Saudi Arabia?


I have no answer to that. But I would suspect if airlines started accommodating such views, the system of rostering crews would collapse as the destinations in question (Saudi, iran etc.) are probably very much down the lst of desirable routes for flight crew anyway....
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Head Scarves and Scheduling

Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:11 pm

Again .. evil wins when good people remain silent.


The Good Intentions Paving Company leads us down the road to eternal war. Iraq, Libya, Vietnam, Syria. If they don’t export their evil laws, customs, it’s no else’s business. Been that way, more or less, since 1648.

It’s like the “Free Tibet” bumper stickers. I’ve asked “what would you do to Free Tibet, take up arms?” The answer is invariably nothing.

GF
 
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longhauler
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Re: Head Scarves and Scheduling

Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:00 pm

vfw614 wrote:
But I would suspect if airlines started accommodating such views, the system of rostering crews would collapse as the destinations in question (Saudi, iran etc.) are probably very much down the lst of desirable routes for flight crew anyway....

In Canada we have a work clause called "The right to refuse dangerous work". So if a woman, or a gay man, or a Christian, etc. felt his safety was in question with regard to certain destinations and that fear was found to be justified then the crew would have a very different make up.

But two things ... it has never really been proven that safety is in question and does one as an airline crew member really wish to take on such a political statement by defying what is already known?

But let's face it. As far as countries go, one with an extremely high rate of oppression due to gender, race, sexual orientation and religion is the United States. There never seems to be any difficulty getting people to take a SFO, LAX, HNL or MIA layover. ;)
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
BravoOne
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Re: Head Scarves and Scheduling

Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:08 am

longhauler wrote:
vfw614 wrote:
But I would suspect if airlines started accommodating such views, the system of rostering crews would collapse as the destinations in question (Saudi, iran etc.) are probably very much down the lst of desirable routes for flight crew anyway....

In Canada we have a work clause called "The right to refuse dangerous work". So if a woman, or a gay man, or a Christian, etc. felt his safety was in question with regard to certain destinations and that fear was found to be justified then the crew would have a very different make up.

But two things ... it has never really been proven that safety is in question and does one as an airline crew member really wish to take on such a political statement by defying what is already known?

But let's face it. As far as countries go, one with an extremely high rate of oppression due to gender, race, sexual orientation and religion is the United States. There never seems to be any difficulty getting people to take a SFO, LAX, HNL or MIA layover. ;)



Let me see if I understand your thought process? US has a extremely high rate of suppression? Let me state the obvious. A gay man running for President, A black man is a two term President. Thousands upon thousnads LGBT persons in various successful roles. More religious freedom than any country on earth. Race batting does not flatter you or your country.

Funny one of my co workers, former AC 747 Captains and a US citizen can't stop talking about how superior everything is on the other side of the border, but he remains in the US.
 
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zeke
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Re: Head Scarves and Scheduling

Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:14 am

BravoOne wrote:
Funny one of my co workers, former AC 747 Captains and a US citizen can't stop talking about how superior everything is on the other side of the border, but he remains in the US.


I know of Canadians that do the same, they live in the states for the lower cost of living and lower taxes.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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longhauler
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Re: Head Scarves and Scheduling

Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:26 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Let me see if I understand your thought process? US has a extremely high rate of suppression? Let me state the obvious. A gay man running for President, A black man is a two term President. Thousands upon thousnads LGBT persons in various successful roles.


I am sure you can find examples where oppression did not exist (then tout them on billboards so you can pretend it's true), but when the Commander-in-Chief cries the virtues of "grabbing them by the pussy", it's because he respects women, right? Or when a bill in Texas is proposed that allows the death penalty for women having had an abortion, it's to protect women because they're not smart enough to think for themselves, right?

That being the case, I am not so sure using the President as an example of good American values is such a good idea.

As far as LGBT issues are concerned, I am not sure of you are aware, but I am one of the founding members of the National Gay Pilots Association. One may think this group is for meetings and parties, but the legal aspect is astounding. We still today, fight for equal rights for LGBT pilots where they need help ... and where they need help most is in the United States. And I am not talking remote cases with small carriers ... we presently have cases with all major American carriers.

BravoOne wrote:
More religious freedom than any country on earth.


The United States is pretty good with regard to religious freedoms, certainly better than a lot of areas on the earth, but ... not anywhere near the best on the earth.

Remember, there is a big difference between the Law and the Spirit of the Law. Namely, what is written in the Constitution and what happens at small churches in the Southern US is very different. And that brings up really the main intent of my previous message, keeping it on topic with this thread.

In Saudi Arabia (for example), you know what you are getting. It is law and it is well known. As a crew member, you know what to do and not to do. Or simply to bid to avoid certain destinations. But in the US, it is far more subtle. Hate crime numbers have risen dramitically over the last 5 years. Some may say it is due to social media or some may say it is the President leading by example and his minions follow. But is the end result not the same?

Whether you are oppressed for being gay in some areas of the Middle East any different than being beat up on a beach in Miami or murdered in a bar in Florida on a layover, simply as a result of one's sexual orientation or race?

If I offended you, I apologize. The point I was making is that these inequalities occur everywhere. Some areas more blatantly than others. Even in developed/advanced countries like the United States. I used the US only as an example, as this thread was leaning to how Americans feel when travelling overseas, when I was showing that these issues occur in the US as well.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
BravoOne
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Re: Head Scarves and Scheduling

Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:53 pm

Funny but before I read through your 1st paragraph I said to myself, I bet Longhauler is gay. Nuf said about this subject.
 
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longhauler
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Re: Head Scarves and Scheduling

Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:00 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Funny but before I read through your 1st paragraph I said to myself, I bet Longhauler is gay. Nuf said about this subject.

Case in point.
Couldn’t have made a clearer example.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Head Scarves and Scheduling

Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:29 pm

Fact of the matter is no one has a monopoly on moral judgement. Many, perhaps a majority, Muslims have strong moral objections to how women are treated in the “West”. Our normal dress is looked at as overtly sexual, objectifies women, our customs give women more power or place in society than they believe is justified. Who’s to say they’re not right?

GF
 
B777LRF
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Re: Head Scarves and Scheduling

Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:30 am

When you travel to KSA as a crew member, you need to accept that women are considered property of men and are restricted in a number of different ways. If you travel to the US as a crew member, you need to accept that there are more guns than citizens around, and that 40K people get shot every year. If you travel to India, you need to accept that more than a million people die on the roads every year, and that the transport to/from airport is a high risk affair.

And so on and so forth. Point being, when you travel in a professional capacity you need to learn to go with the local flow. You don't have to agree to any of it, but you do have to respect the right of an individual country to arrange themselves as they see fit. Once you're off the company clock, feel free to agitate against whatever it is you disagree with all you want.
Signature. You just read one.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Head Scarves and Scheduling

Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:51 pm

Well, it’s 40 thousand if you intend to shoot yourself, it’s about 13,000 homicides, the vast majority in about two dozen zip codes. Pretty easy to avoid zip codes. In KSA, the laws are pervasive. Road travel is pretty hard to avoid in India but exposure can Be reduced.


GF
 
B777LRF
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Re: Head Scarves and Scheduling

Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:34 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Well, it’s 40 thousand if you intend to shoot yourself, it’s about 13,000 homicides, the vast majority in about two dozen zip codes. Pretty easy to avoid zip codes. In KSA, the laws are pervasive. Road travel is pretty hard to avoid in India but exposure can Be reduced.


GF


I'm not disagreeing with you, merely stating those are the rules of the game if you're employed be a company in a role, which may demand travels to KSA. Just as there are other rules which need abiding by, when you go to other places in the world.

I personally find the regime in KSA abhorrent, but I've had to go and stay there as a crew member, and the only way to handle that is by abiding by the local rules. The company did refrain from scheduling any of our female pilots on KSA services (of which we operated maybe a handful a year), merely in recognition of the local rules and to avoid any sort of hassle, should the aircraft decide to throw a wobbly and cause a grounding.
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zeke
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Re: Head Scarves and Scheduling

Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:15 pm

B777LRF wrote:
The company did refrain from scheduling any of our female pilots on KSA services (of which we operated maybe a handful a year), merely in recognition of the local rules and to avoid any sort of hassle, should the aircraft decide to throw a wobbly and cause a grounding.


We did the exact opposite, on occasion we sent all female crews, all male crew, and mixed crews there like we do to every other port.
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