cmarquez
Topic Author
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:28 pm

Pushback by men, pushback manually

Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:19 am

Hi, does anyone know if there's any kind of restrictions on IATA or airport authorities that say that an Aircraft cannot be pushed manually?

Thank you in advance.

:)
 
ChrisKen
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Re: Pushback by men, pushback manually

Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:51 am

Nope, the aircraft being pushed restricts it. It takes 9 men (3 on each main gear, 2 on nose wheel, plus dispatcher/walker) to push a Sukhoi Superjet, 12 for a CRJ (6 per wing).

Anything larger, forget it. Too heavy and too few places to push safely.
 
Lufthansa
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Re: Pushback by men, pushback manually

Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:13 am

is that like the guy who tried to stop the west jet 737 in a blizzard from being blowing around the tarmac.... not a chance in hell. No matter what he can bench press.
 
ITSTours
Posts: 277
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Re: Pushback by men, pushback manually

Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:29 am

https://youtu.be/y96SyLoi2Bs

This episode of Infinite Challenge had 50 people trying to pull an a380.
 
Kilopond
Posts: 428
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Re: Pushback by men, pushback manually

Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:26 am

Search the net for "passengers push Tu-134".

Here is the respective thread on this forum:

viewtopic.php?t=580867
 
Max Q
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Re: Pushback by men, pushback manually

Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:37 am

ChrisKen wrote:
Nope, the aircraft being pushed restricts it. It takes 9 men (3 on each main gear, 2 on nose wheel, plus dispatcher/walker) to push a Sukhoi Superjet, 12 for a CRJ (6 per wing).

Anything larger, forget it. Too heavy and too few places to push safely.



Well that’s an unusual piece of knowledge CK


Sounds like a personal experience!
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
wn676
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Re: Pushback by men, pushback manually

Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:48 am

I’ve seen a 787 pushed back manually after a pushtug failure. Ramp slope helped in this case, and apparently they didn’t want to wait around for GSE maintenance to pull the tug out to swap equipment.

Couldn’t say if IATA or an airport authority regulates that, however if one of them did it would probably state something to the effect of utilizing the proper equipment to perform certain tasks.
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
okobjorn
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Re: Pushback by men, pushback manually

Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:04 pm

Max Q wrote:
ChrisKen wrote:
Nope, the aircraft being pushed restricts it. It takes 9 men (3 on each main gear, 2 on nose wheel, plus dispatcher/walker) to push a Sukhoi Superjet, 12 for a CRJ (6 per wing).

Anything larger, forget it. Too heavy and too few places to push safely.



Well that’s an unusual piece of knowledge CK


Sounds like a personal experience!


This is exactly why we spend hours in here every day 8-)
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Pushback by men, pushback manually

Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:10 pm

Max Q wrote:
ChrisKen wrote:
Nope, the aircraft being pushed restricts it. It takes 9 men (3 on each main gear, 2 on nose wheel, plus dispatcher/walker) to push a Sukhoi Superjet, 12 for a CRJ (6 per wing).

Anything larger, forget it. Too heavy and too few places to push safely.



Well that’s an unusual piece of knowledge CK


Sounds like a personal experience!

Apparently, a team of 20 can pull a 727.
http://centervillecrossfit.com/dayton-plane-pull/
 
CanadianNorth
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Re: Pushback by men, pushback manually

Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:04 pm

I push my Cessna 172 around manually by myself just about every time I fly it. Apply weight on empenage structure and swing it around to point it and then use the wing struts to push.

I helped move an HS-748 by hand once, there was I think five of us, it was hard work but do-able. If I recall correctly we used the wheels and landing gear legs to push on.

A cool one to watch is the local airline here has hosted a few times now where people do as a fundraiser or whatever have two groups compete by pulling one of the 737s a set distance (usually about 100 meters or something like that) on a flat section of the yard and seeing which group can pull it that distance the fastest. For that they use a big rope tied to where the tow bar would normally hook on to for pulling, and the team pulls on the rope. Of course a brake rider up in the cockpit to apply the brakes at the finish line or earlier if needed for safety reasons and a tug and tow bar waiting nearby to push the airplane back to the start line for the next team. Works pretty good actually, again going off of vague memories but I seem to remember teams are usually around 10 or 15 people and they usually use a 737-500, though in this case it would not have a load on it, just the empty weight plus a brake rider and whatever fuel is leftover from the last flight it did.
HS-748, like a 747 but better!
 
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zeke
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Re: Pushback by men, pushback manually

Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:32 pm

cmarquez wrote:
Hi, does anyone know if there's any kind of restrictions on IATA or airport authorities that say that an Aircraft cannot be pushed manually?

Thank you in advance.

:)


I can see some airports not liking that at all, everyone would need high vis clothing, ear protection, gloves, boots, security pass etc, and an engineering order if the method is not in the manufacturers manual so your covered by insurance
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Pushback by men, pushback manually

Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:00 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
Anything larger, forget it. Too heavy and too few places to push safely.

In the 80ies a DC10 has been pushed back by its passengers somewhere in Africa because the pilots had accidentally parked in front of a pole. They used a rope though.
 
AirFiero
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Re: Pushback by men, pushback manually

Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:21 pm

CanadianNorth wrote:
I push my Cessna 172 around manually by myself just about every time I fly it. Apply weight on empenage structure and swing it around to point it and then use the wing struts to push.



As I understand it, this is NOT good for the empennage structure. I wouldn’t recommend doing that. It is definitely not approved for my 210.

Edit, add:
Cessna Mandatory Service Bulletin No. SEB94-8
PDF file, page 2-3
https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/safety/ale ... _Alert.pdf
 
CanadianNorth
Posts: 3225
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Re: Pushback by men, pushback manually

Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:10 pm

AirFiero wrote:
As I understand it, this is NOT good for the empennage structure. I wouldn’t recommend doing that.


From what I was taught it depends on how and where you push. I should have been more clear, I try to use fuselage structural points near the empenage if I can. I know a few guys who swear by the sitting on the horizontal stab, but I try to avoid that if I can because I've heard that is not recommended due to possible internal damage, and the link you've posted seems to be saying exactly that. I use a hand push tow bar sometimes as well, it works pretty good on dry ground in the summer but with a bit of spring mud or an icy ramp in the winter I find whatever it is about the angles and swivels or something it's hard to give a good push with it and not fall on my face every time I step on a slippery patch.
HS-748, like a 747 but better!
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Pushback by men, pushback manually

Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:16 pm

Sounds like a comedy from the Talkies Era. :lol:
Only, it would have been a biplane, and then you get the "start the engine" segment. Rotary engines... !!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY07FI91F9M
What were they thinking??
 
glideslope900
Posts: 106
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Re: Pushback by men, pushback manually

Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:36 pm

cmarquez wrote:
Hi, does anyone know if there's any kind of restrictions on IATA or airport authorities that say that an Aircraft cannot be pushed manually?

Thank you in advance.

:)



Did you just (in the title) assume that women can not push an airplane? HOW DARE YOU. Let me guess, these men you invision pushing the airplane back are also white??

MODS please change the title NOW!!!
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Pushback by men, pushback manually

Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:05 am

I saw on a one-off show where humans went against animals in various challenges.

One segment was a group of 40 little people pulling a DC10 versus 1 elephant also pulling a DC10 and who could do it faster. The elephant won.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
Shrewfly
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 1:25 am

Re: Pushback by men, pushback manually

Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:26 am

Ive seen it done on an early model Dash 8. The aircraft was parked correctly on the stand, but scaffolding work being done on the terminal meant that the tug couldnt get in to connect to the towbar. Before it was loaded, the ramp crew pushed it back about 10ft so the tug could connect. It was quite a sight, and I dont remember how many it took to get it rolling, but it wasnt as many as you might think.

Funny enough it sparked a conversation about using reverse thrust to push back. Which I would later learn from this site was quite commonly done in some places (though probably not with a dash8!)

I suppose like most things, even if there are airport rules against such things, sometimes the rules need to be broken when the unexpected happens. The alternative would have been an aircraft stuck on stand with no real alternative to move it except dismantling a lot of scaffolding which would have taken hours..
It was all done under a lot of supervision and presumably with approval from airport and airline
 
e38
Posts: 609
Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 10:09 pm

Re: Pushback by men, pushback manually

Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:31 pm

glideslope900 (Reply # 16),

I think the term “men” in the title is reference to “mankind,” as the ability of human beings to pushback an aircraft rather than a mechanical tug or machine; not necessarily gender related.

e38
 
chimborazo
Posts: 217
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Re: Pushback by men, pushback manually

Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:28 pm

A few years from now it will be one small step for a woman or a man and one giant leap for women or men kind...

Don’t see a problem with pushing down on the rear fuselage to turn a 172. I’ve done it loads. And judging by some of the landings I’ve seen (and one very bad one I’ve done) they are strooong aeroplanes.

Pushing on the horizontal stabiliser: nope. I wouldn’t do that.

The regs quoted cite on the stabiliser and associated damage, not about pushing on the fuselage.
 
HAWKXP
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Re: Pushback by men, pushback manually

Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:18 am

Years ago at an airshow, we had to hand push a F-14. No Navy tug and A.F. couldn't/wouldn't hook up. Probably 12 of us and it was tough.
And I have turned Cessnas for 50 years by pushing down on the rear fuselage. Did it this morning :D (see handle).

NEVER, EVER ON THE STABILIZER.
 
meecrob
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Re: Pushback by men, pushback manually

Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:26 pm

I'm no engineer, haven't done the math, but wouldn't pushing down on the spar of the H stab...I want to repeat that, the SPAR...not ribs or skin...Wouldn't the force required to lift the nosewheel not exceed what the H stab was designed for? I'm not trying to sound snarky. I was taught this was an approved procedure and I'd like to know if I was taught incorrectly.
 
Zeke2517
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Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:29 pm

Re: Pushback by men, pushback manually

Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:19 pm

We had to push a Prowler out of a hangar a time or two when the tug broke in Afghanistan. Took a bunch of dudes but it wasn’t too bad once it got rolling. We just pushed on the landing gear and grunted a lot.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Pushback by men, pushback manually

Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:52 pm

meecrob wrote:
I'm no engineer, haven't done the math, but wouldn't pushing down on the spar of the H stab...I want to repeat that, the SPAR...not ribs or skin...Wouldn't the force required to lift the nosewheel not exceed what the H stab was designed for? I'm not trying to sound snarky. I was taught this was an approved procedure and I'd like to know if I was taught incorrectly.

What size of aircraft are you talking about?
Some are quite finely balanced on their toes (like a ballerina), especially when the pilot isn't up at the front end to hold it down.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
meecrob
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Re: Pushback by men, pushback manually

Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:18 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
meecrob wrote:
I'm no engineer, haven't done the math, but wouldn't pushing down on the spar of the H stab...I want to repeat that, the SPAR...not ribs or skin...Wouldn't the force required to lift the nosewheel not exceed what the H stab was designed for? I'm not trying to sound snarky. I was taught this was an approved procedure and I'd like to know if I was taught incorrectly.

What size of aircraft are you talking about?
Some are quite finely balanced on their toes (like a ballerina), especially when the pilot isn't up at the front end to hold it down.


My bad, I should have specified that I meant "Tonka Toy" planes like Cessna's, not Transport Category metal. Now I have a mental image of a crane putting weight on the tail of say a 777 and a bunch of people pushing the nosewheel to turn it. Thanks for the laugh!
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Pushback by men, pushback manually

Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:21 am

I've seen a BAe Hawk "spun" by pushing down on the tail. Not quite an airliner but still...
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Pushback by men, pushback manually

Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:57 pm

meecrob wrote:
I'm no engineer, haven't done the math, but wouldn't pushing down on the spar of the H stab...I want to repeat that, the SPAR...not ribs or skin...Wouldn't the force required to lift the nosewheel not exceed what the H stab was designed for? I'm not trying to sound snarky. I was taught this was an approved procedure and I'd like to know if I was taught incorrectly.


If my first offering made you laugh, the second should hit the spot too...
(and yes, it's probably not unique to the Spitfire)

Image
Thx to britishairshows.com "Why do people sit on the tail of a Spitfire"

(Ok, I'll stop now)
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
LH707330
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Re: Pushback by men, pushback manually

Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:48 pm

meecrob wrote:
I'm no engineer, haven't done the math, but wouldn't pushing down on the spar of the H stab...I want to repeat that, the SPAR...not ribs or skin...Wouldn't the force required to lift the nosewheel not exceed what the H stab was designed for? I'm not trying to sound snarky. I was taught this was an approved procedure and I'd like to know if I was taught incorrectly.

If the load is applied symmetrically, it might work. I can think of a few possible issues:

1. The skin doesn't transfer the load to the spar well, and thus may deform if a non-accounted for load shows up
2. Load on one stab and not the other puts a torsional load on the empennage that might mess it up

I guess there are probably OK ways to do it and some unsafe ways to do it, so out of an abundance of caution people just advise not to.
 
strfyr51
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Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Pushback by men, pushback manually

Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:10 am

CanadianNorth wrote:
I push my Cessna 172 around manually by myself just about every time I fly it. Apply weight on empenage structure and swing it around to point it and then use the wing struts to push.

I helped move an HS-748 by hand once, there was I think five of us, it was hard work but do-able. If I recall correctly we used the wheels and landing gear legs to push on.

A cool one to watch is the local airline here has hosted a few times now where people do as a fundraiser or whatever have two groups compete by pulling one of the 737s a set distance (usually about 100 meters or something like that) on a flat section of the yard and seeing which group can pull it that distance the fastest. For that they use a big rope tied to where the tow bar would normally hook on to for pulling, and the team pulls on the rope. Of course a brake rider up in the cockpit to apply the brakes at the finish line or earlier if needed for safety reasons and a tug and tow bar waiting nearby to push the airplane back to the start line for the next team. Works pretty good actually, again going off of vague memories but I seem to remember teams are usually around 10 or 15 people and they usually use a 737-500, though in this case it would not have a load on it, just the empty weight plus a brake rider and whatever fuel is leftover from the last flight it did.

United does this nearly every year for Charity at our SFO Maintenance Center during our open house. Now it's gotten to be teams competing from SFO, IAH,ORD,DEN and LAX for how far and how fast.. I've not seen it myself in years. But it would sure look like fun...
 
Apprentice
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Re: Pushback by men, pushback manually

Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:20 am

Hi: Long time ago, at VRA, a B767 was pushed back by airport workers til a/c reach distance where to start engines and clear turn..
Pusher, and lo Russian “Belaz” (a T-34 Power plant) was out of service. After that, airport decided to keep 2 pusher “green”, Justin case.

Rgds
“An4; IL18; IL6; Tu5; D10; MD11; MD83; B32; B34: B37; B744; B748; B752; B763; B772; B773; B77W; A320; A332; A333; A342; A343.
"A NO" is a positive answer., "DON'T KNOW" is not. My Tutor (a wise man)
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Apprentice
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Re: Pushback by men, pushback manually

Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:22 am

Sorry, please read: “...pusher, an old Russian “Belaz”....”

Thanks
“An4; IL18; IL6; Tu5; D10; MD11; MD83; B32; B34: B37; B744; B748; B752; B763; B772; B773; B77W; A320; A332; A333; A342; A343.
"A NO" is a positive answer., "DON'T KNOW" is not. My Tutor (a wise man)
“CUBANA” 90 years Flying”

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