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Make better use of fuselage space

Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:27 am
by IQuit
Image
Seats at different heights allow armrests to overlap / stacked, better comfort for the same seat width. When slightly reclined, pax shoulders will not bump into each other.
Arch floor can support more weight for the same amount of floor material than flat floor.
Is AKH designed to be flippable?

Re: Make better use of fuselage space

Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:25 am
by AirKevin
With a curved cabin floor, how are the passengers supposed to walk to their seats. Also, how do you get the cargo containers on the top out.

Re: Make better use of fuselage space

Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:34 am
by Max Q
Er, might want to rethink that

Re: Make better use of fuselage space

Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:25 am
by spacecadet
Deathtrap in an emergency.

Not to mention food and drink carts would be unstable, and would at best only be able to service one side of the plane (ie. not interchangeable, which is much *less* efficient).

Re: Make better use of fuselage space

Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:01 am
by TSS
AirKevin wrote:
With a curved cabin floor, how are the passengers supposed to walk to their seats.

The beams supporting the floor would be curved, but the cabin floor itself would have to be stepped for it to work. Also, you'd need fewer, wider steps in first than in the main cabin.

spacecadet wrote:
Deathtrap in an emergency.

Not to mention food and drink carts would be unstable, and would at best only be able to service one side of the plane (ie. not interchangeable, which is much *less* efficient).

With a stepped floor surface the same carts could be used as today, but steps leading down to the emergency exits would probably make it a no-go before the first drawings were even finished.

AirKevin wrote:
Also, how do you get the cargo containers on the top out.

That was my main question as well.

Re: Make better use of fuselage space

Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:35 pm
by IQuit
AirKevin wrote:
how do you get the cargo containers on the top out.

Hold top container, drag bottom container out. then lower top container diagonally and drag it out. Cargo door may need rework.

TSS wrote:
but steps leading down to the emergency exits

No seats on exit row, so the entire section of the floor can be raised.

Re: Make better use of fuselage space

Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:40 am
by AirKevin
IQuit wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
how do you get the cargo containers on the top out.

Hold top container, drag bottom container out. then lower top container diagonally and drag it out. Cargo door may need rework.

With what.

Re: Make better use of fuselage space

Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:52 am
by DaProf
AirKevin wrote:
IQuit wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
how do you get the cargo containers on the top out.

Hold top container, drag bottom container out. then lower top container diagonally and drag it out. Cargo door may need rework.

With what.


Well, you see, a plane flies because of all the lift being generated. I say we simply take some of that lift and move it into the cargo hold to help move the containers around. In fact if there is some spare lift free after that we can use it to help people get in and out of their seats.

Re: Make better use of fuselage space

Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:07 am
by IPFreely
Not sure what the overhead bins look like but if you make the arch have a smaller radius and lower the bins, you might be able to hang a few seats from the ceiling. Or maybe double-stack the window seats.

Re: Make better use of fuselage space

Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:56 am
by Zeke2517
DaProf wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
IQuit wrote:
Hold top container, drag bottom container out. then lower top container diagonally and drag it out. Cargo door may need rework.

With what.


Well, you see, a plane flies because of all the lift being generated. I say we simply take some of that lift and move it into the cargo hold to help move the containers around. In fact if there is some spare lift free after that we can use it to help people get in and out of their seats.


I’m with you.

Step 2: ???

Step 3: Profit!

Re: Make better use of fuselage space

Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:38 pm
by Armadillo1
for this particular example, just place second LD3/45 overhead.

in general, a lot of patents in google, includingn boeing and airbus.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US6616098B2/en
https://patents.google.com/patent/EP0681956B1/en

most reasonable and efficient, in my opinion, like this:
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20130119203

and similar patent from boeing (cant find now, i think about 2012 year)
with 3+3 single aisle at upper level and
0+3+3+0 two-aisle at low level with luggage bin in the middle instead of 7th seat

Re: Make better use of fuselage space

Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:45 pm
by Armadillo1

Re: Make better use of fuselage space

Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:18 am
by IQuit
Armadillo1 wrote:
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20070267544A1/en

Thanks! It seems a bit wasteful to me that a huge portion of the lower deck is used for walking during embark / disembark only, however.

Re: Make better use of fuselage space

Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:51 pm
by tomcat
Talking about making better use of the fuselage space, I have been thinking that with the technological progress, it could be possible to move the pilots in the belly of the aircraft (wide-body ones). The main benefit would be that the space currently occupied by the cockpit could be turned into a super-premium area, by providing fairly large forward facing windows in a secluded section of the aircraft. Trading belly space for an extended cabin area could be worth in terms of revenue potential. This concept could also allow a reduction of the cockpit windows area (retaining 2 large windows instead of the current 4 to 6), leading to weight and maintenance savings.

Re: Make better use of fuselage space

Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:30 pm
by Starlionblue
tomcat wrote:
Talking about making better use of the fuselage space, I have been thinking that with the technological progress, it could be possible to move the pilots in the belly of the aircraft (wide-body ones). The main benefit would be that the space currently occupied by the cockpit could be turned into a super-premium area, by providing fairly large forward facing windows in a secluded section of the aircraft. Trading belly space for an extended cabin area could be worth in terms of revenue potential. This concept could also allow a reduction of the cockpit windows area (retaining 2 large windows instead of the current 4 to 6), leading to weight and maintenance savings.


You'd still need a door ahead of the seats in order to satisfy evacuation rules. Also, 2 large windows with the same area as 4-6 smaller ones probably means more weight.

Re: Make better use of fuselage space

Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:00 pm
by tomcat
Starlionblue wrote:
tomcat wrote:
Talking about making better use of the fuselage space, I have been thinking that with the technological progress, it could be possible to move the pilots in the belly of the aircraft (wide-body ones). The main benefit would be that the space currently occupied by the cockpit could be turned into a super-premium area, by providing fairly large forward facing windows in a secluded section of the aircraft. Trading belly space for an extended cabin area could be worth in terms of revenue potential. This concept could also allow a reduction of the cockpit windows area (retaining 2 large windows instead of the current 4 to 6), leading to weight and maintenance savings.


You'd still need a door ahead of the seats in order to satisfy evacuation rules. Also, 2 large windows with the same area as 4-6 smaller ones probably means more weight.


About a door ahead of the seats, yep this seems a difficult point. When you think that the 747-8 could still get away without it on both decks!

About the 2 large windows, I meant keeping 2 out of the usual 4 or 6. The overall window area would be much reduced compared to typical cockpit windows but they could still be "big" compared to the typical passenger windows.

Otherwise, if not usable for passenger seats, the cockpit area could be used for anything like galleys / lavatories / passenger amenities, whatever would help to optimize the main deck use and increase the income per flight.

Re: Make better use of fuselage space

Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:12 pm
by Starlionblue
The 747-8i could get away with with the door ahead of the seats because the type certificate us from the 1960s, before the regulation existed. A new design could not do omit a door both forward and aft of every passenger seat.

Re: Make better use of fuselage space

Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:22 pm
by TSS
Starlionblue wrote:
The 747-8i could get away with with the door ahead of the seats because the type certificate is from the 1960s, before the regulation existed. A new design could not do omit a door both forward and aft of every passenger seat.

I'm tempted to suggest adding an emergency exit behind the radome on 747s not unlike the tailcone of DC-9s, etc., but that might involve more weight and complexity than it would be worth plus it still wouldn't provide the desired view directly ahead for passengers.

Re: Make better use of fuselage space

Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:27 pm
by Starlionblue
TSS wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
The 747-8i could get away with with the door ahead of the seats because the type certificate is from the 1960s, before the regulation existed. A new design could not do omit a door both forward and aft of every passenger seat.

I'm tempted to suggest adding an emergency exit behind the radome on 747s not unlike the tailcone of DC-9s, etc., but that might involve more weight and complexity than it would be worth plus it still wouldn't provide the desired view directly ahead for passengers.


:)

At the end of the day, most passengers don't care enough about the view for this kind of idea to be economically viable.

Re: Make better use of fuselage space

Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:57 am
by TSS
Starlionblue wrote:
TSS wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
The 747-8i could get away with with the door ahead of the seats because the type certificate is from the 1960s, before the regulation existed. A new design could not do omit a door both forward and aft of every passenger seat.

I'm tempted to suggest adding an emergency exit behind the radome on 747s not unlike the tailcone of DC-9s, etc., but that might involve more weight and complexity than it would be worth plus it still wouldn't provide the desired view directly ahead for passengers.


:)

At the end of the day, most passengers don't care enough about the view for this kind of idea to be economically viable.

Agreed. I do care very much for a view, just not that particular one because as soon as anything got close enough for you to see any detail it would move out of sight. I would, however, happily pay extra for a seat that had a view down as well as forward such as in the "lower cockpit/bomb sight/whatever they called it" area on older Russian airliners, even if it meant laying on my belly for the whole flight.

Re: Make better use of fuselage space

Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:18 am
by Starlionblue
As camera tech improves, panoramic windows for pax can become virtual, if you will.

Re: Make better use of fuselage space

Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 1:58 am
by strfyr51
IQuit wrote:
Image
Seats at different heights allow armrests to overlap / stacked, better comfort for the same seat width. When slightly reclined, pax shoulders will not bump into each other.
Arch floor can support more weight for the same amount of floor material than flat floor.
Is AKH designed to be flippable?


In what world would the FAA certify that? Did you think of how the floor beams would be Manufactured? And what about the Cargo Loading systems or the cabin ventilation system?? I take it you have NO IDEA what's behind the sidewalls walls of the cargo compartment, That idea is completely off the mark, Why don't you try again?

Re: Make better use of fuselage space

Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 2:00 am
by strfyr51
strfyr51 wrote:
IQuit wrote:
Image
Seats at different heights allow armrests to overlap / stacked, better comfort for the same seat width. When slightly reclined, pax shoulders will not bump into each other.
Arch floor can support more weight for the same amount of floor material than flat floor.
Is AKH designed to be flippable?


In what world would the FAA certify that? Did you think of how the floor beams would be Manufactured? And what about the Cargo Loading systems or the cabin ventilation system?? I take it you have NO IDEA what's behind the sidewalls walls of the cargo compartment, That idea is completely off the mark, Why don't you try again?

Did I see single Post seats?? So where is the 9G protection of the passengers? Or? Were they also an afterthought?

Re: Make better use of fuselage space

Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 4:16 am
by TSS
IQuit wrote:
Image
Seats at different heights allow armrests to overlap / stacked, better comfort for the same seat width. When slightly reclined, pax shoulders will not bump into each other.
Arch floor can support more weight for the same amount of floor material than flat floor.
Is AKH designed to be flippable?


strfyr51 wrote:
In what world would the FAA certify that? Did you think of how the floor beams would be Manufactured? And what about the Cargo Loading systems or the cabin ventilation system?? I take it you have NO IDEA what's behind the sidewalls walls of the cargo compartment, That idea is completely off the mark, Why don't you try again?

strfyr51 wrote:
Did I see single Post seats?? So where is the 9G protection of the passengers? Or? Were they also an afterthought?

Dude, take a deep breath! I think IQuit's original posted image was just meant to be a very basic illustration of his concept, not a detailed technical drawing. While his concept does present numerous technical obstacles to overcome, many of which are enumerated within this thread and several of which make the idea a non-starter before it even gets to the gate, at least he is using his imagination when trying to solve a problem. Just because this idea doesn't or won't work doesn't mean the next one or the one after that won't have a real-world application.

Re: Make better use of fuselage space

Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 9:00 pm
by CarlosSi
tomcat wrote:
Talking about making better use of the fuselage space, I have been thinking that with the technological progress, it could be possible to move the pilots in the belly of the aircraft (wide-body ones). The main benefit would be that the space currently occupied by the cockpit could be turned into a super-premium area, by providing fairly large forward facing windows in a secluded section of the aircraft. Trading belly space for an extended cabin area could be worth in terms of revenue potential. This concept could also allow a reduction of the cockpit windows area (retaining 2 large windows instead of the current 4 to 6), leading to weight and maintenance savings.


Ain’t no snob going to replace what I will have had worked for years to earn, if I get that far, and many probably will agree.

You want super-premium, make a glass-humped airplane :) .

Re: Make better use of fuselage space

Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 10:25 pm
by TSS
CarlosSi wrote:
You want super-premium, make a glass-humped airplane :) .


Not glass-humped, glass-bottomed. What can you see from the top of an airplane that you wouldn't be able to see from the ground as well? Up close or far away, the bottom side of clouds look pretty much the same at any distance.